The lack of physical function keys remains regrettable, and the Touch Bar is still no worthy substitute, but perhaps this is a sign that Apple is finally interested in listening to feedback from its long-term customer base, even if that feedback conflicts with the design team's desires.
I'd concluded that Apple didn't really think much of laptops anymore, and had simply moved on to caring more about other form factors: it seemed a logical conclusion if one assumed that people at Apple were in fact competent.
This shows some real care regarding laptops as a form factor and puts them back in the running for a lot of buyers, including me. But there's still one major issue that I don't see people talking much about -- the way that Apple's decisions regarding storage (namely soldering it to the board AND making it so that there's no way to access it in the event of a logic board failure) increases consumer risk as well as decreasing consumer choice:
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-removes-the-Customer-Dat...
It increases risk of data loss. That's a choice that impacts the day-to-day experience much less than the keyboard, which explains why the keyboard has gotten much more attention, and it really is nice that a company arguably built on attention to experience returned to that aspect of it. But this kind of choice makes a huge difference in a moment of failure, and it's at least equally user-hostile, especially in a product bearing the name "pro" where data recovery can be a matter of business continuity.
I suppose that one can argue a responsible professional will be using network and external backups (and of course all responsible professionals worth considering or selling anything to will do this, right?), and so this isn't necessary, and Apple's thing (wise or unwise) is that they frequently reconsider and eliminate things that aren't crucial. But redundancy in some areas is wise, and I can't see what they think eliminating both removability AND emergency direct access when it come to storage actually buys them. Even if one assumes it's a lock-in action for service, it makes the actual service more difficult and costly.
I'm liking the keyboard correction. I just bought a 2014 MBP to replace an older failing MBP, so I'm not in the market for something else for a year or two, but when that comes up, I'll be seriously looking at the 16" as an option. And this will be what I'm thinking about.
The "butterfly mechanism" keyboards are awful, unreliable, and get worse with time, so I'm very glad to see them go. Likewise, the return of the physical Escape key is very welcome.
But honestly, the design of the arrow keys has never bothered me in the slightest. If anything, the present configuration is slightly better because it's aesthetically cleaner and gives you a larger surface to hit the left and right arrows.
Hopefully this trend continues and they can iterate on this model even further.
However, there is always the option of an external keyboard. But then you end up carrying even more peripherals that you end up with a really thin light laptop and a second bag with all the adapters to enable to you to use the laptop in the way you want. For some it does feel like you got sold an electric sports car, yet end up having to tow a caravan about to carry all the spare batteries and other accessories you had in your previous car.
But certainly an opportunity to embrace modular design and allow the end user to customize in a way that has benefits and would win over pundits.
EDIT [spelling and fat finger W's]
Apple still hasn't walked back on mandatory notarization on Catalina.
In January 2020, they're removing the option to run software that isn't locally compiled or notarized[1].
Seems that if you scream hard enough AAPL listens:
> What Apple emphasized is simply that they listened to the complaints from professional MacBook users. They recognized how important the Escape key is to developers — they even mentioned Vim by name during a developer tool demo.
* https://daringfireball.net/2019/11/16-inch_macbook_pro_first...
They have been forced to add it to just about every model to keep people from downgrading to avoid the thing. Which ok saved me money, but I would expect this to get the point across.
What makes you think they stopped? You know it takes a couple years to design and ship hardware at this level (as well as to design the production lines to be able to build a few million more copies), yes?
It’s not like a web app where they can change, test, PR, and deploy in a few days or weeks or months. There is a lot of preproduction work that goes into building the kind of objects Apple is now famous for and are almost taken for granted.
I was half expecting them to use haptics on the touch bar. Still no luck there.
Getting a physical escape key back and going with a more reliable keyboard design are big wins.
C-[ is the same thing in Unix. I haven't tried it on a Mac though. But if you're using vim (mostly where I hear this complaint) use C-[ (actually just use it in vim anyways because who wants to lift their hand up to do such a common movement?)
If the Touch Bar had been introduced above physical function keys, we'd consider it yet another Apple UI breakthrough, and other companies would imitate it the way every notebook today looks like the 2001 TiBook.
>perhaps this is a sign that Apple is finally interested in listening to feedback from its long-term customer base, even if that feedback conflicts with the design team's desires
I don't think the fact that Jony Ive left the company a few months ago is a coincidence. Basically, Apple finally got notebook keyboards right ... after three years of worldwide embarrassment, and the departure of the company's chief designer!
Apple please for the love of usability: please give me back USB. I AM the pro that you want to feature in every one of your marketing videos. I have a music studio in my house, I build interactive lighting installations for the biggest music festivals in the world, I build custom hardware controllers for fire effects that travel all over the country, I travel around the world teaching people how to build hardware devices, and when home I spend the majority of my time teaching and building software that people love; I use my laptop for over 10 hours a day.
All of this stuff uses USB. ALL OF IT. Having to carry around stupid dongles all the time is the biggest pain in my ass when I'm trying to do all of this stuff. PLEASE give me back USB, you can even call it the "stupid loser old crappy loser lame macbook for loser non pros". I don't care. This nonsense minimalist sleek design stuff is actually harming my productivity.
The last iPhone that had this FaceTime camera was the 6S, released in 2015. Since the iPhone 7 (2016) the phones have had at least a 1080p FaceTime camera. Given that FaceTime / Skype calls are such a common use case and rarely anyones uses external webcams anymore, why doesn't Apple use the existing camera system of the iPhone 11 for the MacBook?
Seriously, if I pay north of $4000 dollars for a laptop, why do I get an obsolete camera?
So, no, I don’t consider this in any way to be a dealbreaker.
For what it's worth, the front and rear cameras on Microsoft's Surface products are both high-quality and it's generally a pleasure to do video conferences with Surface users. As some others here have pointed out, it's not necessary to have a high-quality video stream—it's not necessary to have video at all—but it's a better user experience to have a more life-like image of the people you're speaking with. In a group conference in particular, the oddball with the low-resolution 720 web-cam does stick out, looking like a relic from 10 years ago. Especially with a high-fashion status symbol such as an Apple laptop, that's an awkward position to be in.
There's value in a better camera, even in laptops.
My iphone6's bluetooth antennae lets me walk all over the house while listening to something with my headphones (an essential modern experience!) while my $2000+ macbook pro will barely let me leave the room without losing connection.
Wifi antennae too. On bad internet, my laptop cannot even connect to a wap that my phone can, so I'll tether my phone to get internet.
I want my laptop to be a portable powerhouse of connectivity too!
Perhaps better cameras would be thicker than screen currently has room for? I don’t really know how thick they would be.
Would it also harm them to make a version that didn't have soldered memory/NVMe drive?
Ultimately, this is why I switched to a Dell Latitude. Being user hostile to basic memory/disk replacement doesn't fly with me when spending $1500+ on a machine.
And if replacing either breaks the crypto chain - I don't need a black box T2 chip, I'll do my own disk encryption.
https://twitter.com/axi0mX/status/1194621631856967688
Edit: Tweet deleted, info is most likely wrong.
- Thickness: 1.55cm to 1.62cm (+0.7mm, +4.5%)
- Width: 34.93cm to 35.79cm (+0.86cm, +2.5%)
- Depth: 24.07cm to 24.59cm (+0.52cm, +2.2%)
- Weight: 1.83kg to 2.0kg (+170gr, +9.3%)
The display alone is ~1.3cm wider (and ~0.7cm higher), so there was a small reduction in bezel sizes, allowing the screen to grow more than the rest of the hardware.
For the Lenovo I'm using I'd say about 5 years because I break things so easily...it's reaching retirement.
I wonder if Apple would bring back the 17in chunky boi? That thing was a beast to carry around, albeit somewhat more feasible than it's competition
This could be the one a lot of people have been waiting for if the new switches/design pans out.
PS - Although I might be an unusual demographic as I touch type and wouldn't use the touchbar regardless (since I look at the screen, not the backs of my hands while I interact with a Mac).
I'm happy we VIM users have been loud enough to get the most important key back. :-)
I know there's Ctrl-[ but it's 20 years of muscle memory to retrain, and I don't want to do that.
Amazing how this can be the first comment. What would be next? USB ports? Even jack ports on the iPhone?! /s
yeah, considering the massive 16" size, there's definitely room for another row of keys. I could see if a diminuitive air came out with touchbar, you want both weight and space savings so nuke it. but with 16" and six speakers just add the damn keys!
This gave me a chuckle since nearly every person I know (90% at least) is a touch typer.
The 2015 model was the best MacBook Pro. Perhaps the best laptop yet.
I'm secretly hoping that my 2015 model dies so I can upgrade to a newer sexier one, but the damn beast keeps on working great.
I'm sure that would go to one of the old Thinkpads; e.g. X220 still has a massive cult following to the point where it's being moded with modern parts just so people could still use it. You have a very valid point though - seems like 2010-2015 was the golden age of modern laptops then innovation was replaced by gimmick all of a sudden.
You can get a decently specd laptop these days for $400.
The fact that this review didn't even once mention the fact that this machine is now thicker & bigger and yet they didn't add any useful ports back in is amazing.
I still hate that the 2017 one I have has only USB-C + Headphone jack. I appreciate that it still has the headphone jack.
But at our office we all got OWC Thunderbolt 3 Docks @ $300/desk and the whole experience sucks.
The display is fantastic all around, 64 GB of ram, 8 GB of DDR6 VRAM, 8 cores, biggest battery FAA will allow on planes, 8 TB SSD, etc.
This will also be able to connect to Apple's upcoming 6K 32-inch display.
This is a very impressive update all around and it shows Apple putting a lot of space between their pro laptops and the MBA and iPad Pro now. The lineup is starting to make a lot of sense again.
In 2008, it cost $2,400. The new 16” released today costs... $2,400.
I agree, though. My old 2011 MBP was fantastic. A few months ago the video card finally died, otherwise I'd still be using it. Modern macbooks barely seem to have any keyboard keys anymore.
You are very fortunate; mine got hit with the EM209 issue twice. An AASP told me that it almost inevitably affects the 2008 and 2009 models.
Apple did improve the model, though. The mid-2012 non-Retina model I'm typing on is seven years old and going strong, albeit with one keyboard repair (something that also affected my 2008 model twice).
Sometimes I like to look at the price of Apple stock in 2008 and wonder how much money I would have today if I had instead bought 2.5k USD worth of shares in 2008 instead of the laptop - it’s depressing.
"I would buy a dell xps but only if it had a touchbar"
things no one ever said.
A couple of years later and I'm a convert. If I had to buy a new MBP today I would definitely make sure it has a touchbar. It turns out app makers have found some nifty uses for it, like the ability to quickly mute/unmute when in conference calls, quickly changing volume/brightness, stepping through code while debugging etc etc. These are seemingly insignificant quality of life improvements, but I definitely miss them when on a machine without a touchbar. Conversely I haven't missed the Fn-keys, not even once.
That hardware esc key looks tasty though, I hope they bring that to the 13" model.
I'm so glad this model has a Touch Bar.
I have seen numerous people who have a MBP 2016 or later which just can't use computers without the Touch Bar experience.
If somebody doesn't find it useful, that's OK, but please, there are a lot of people (who doesn't loudly complain at HN) that finds the Touch Bar useful & incorporates it in one's workflow.
I for myself uses my Touch Bar extensively, from when I'm using Emacs (with a bit of scripting & BTT), Terminal.app, Safari, MS Office Suite, and on and on and on.
I really won't care if Apple would release a MBP without one, but I'm worried Apple will remove the (IMO very useful) concept altogether just because of the loud complainers on the net (like the butterfly mechanism).
The first got a full replacement of mainboard, keyboard and battery after short circuiting.
The second came with a broken hinge cover out of the box and there still seems to be a driver problem I haven't figured out (random lags up to 5 seconds or so but usually less multiple times a week if not multiple times a day).
Just my experience though. Have good experience with Latitude though, so this is not to say you should avoid Dell entirely.
Intellij, Outlook and Apple's own programs integrate it very well.
Phyisical keys are great but 12 buttons labelled F1 to F12 with different functions depending on the program also isn't he pinnacle of UX.
On previous MBPs you still had to touch the fn key to use F1 etc... I do the same on my newer Mac. Press FN and you get what you need back.
Personally I don’t see why they get all the hate. It’s a little gimmicky but I don’t dislike it. The keyboard was my biggest gripe but Apple replaced it for free in a couple days.
If I wanted a super-sexy fn experience, I'd have function keys with leds for changeable icons, and a bigger touchbar above it for app-specific bling.
And I'd drop the size of the touchpad. That thing is too big, the retina one was more than adequate.
And there's no option to get legacy ports, but it's Apple, ports are a religious jihad not a customer convenience.\.
things every pro user said, since the invention of laptops, for every brand.
Yes it's a little gimmicky, main feature being that you can swap between customized buttons and ad-hoc sliders when adjusting things. But still nice that they didn't throw everything aboard and manage to compromise between reintroducing ESC and keeping innovation.
Rather then getting hung up on hating, learn to like it. Pretty useful if you give it a chance.
Is Apple afraid to offer this because it clearly would show that almost no one is ready to pay for it?
Even from this audience, who of you would be willing to pay the premium for the TouchBar?
And before everyone accuses him of being an Apple fanboy and biased, there is no disputing that he is very much a keyboard snob. He hated the last generation keyboard and he called it out during his initial review. He also famously still prefers an old ADB Apple Keyboard and he never bought a laptop with the old one.
He’s also linked to a lot of articles criticizing it.
If he praises it, I think you can trust him.
Edit:
And Marco Arment’s review. He’s never pulled punches when it comes to Apple’s hardware, their development tools, or the quality of the OS frameworks. He’s gushing over the review unit.
I thought the previous macbook pro felt great for a week out of the box. Then switches started breaking and keycaps started coming off within the first three months.
In fact, the issue seemed to be that it feeling good out of the box was the only testing Apple did on it.
I admit, a 16" screen in a 15" body sounds really nice. But most of this is stuff other brands already had.
People were annoyed because they don't want to run a different OS. Yes, you could get cheaper/powerful hardware somewhere else... but it's not macOS. Hackintoshes need not apply here.
For work, I have this display: LG 5K2k (https://www.lg.com/us/monitors/lg-34WK95U-W-ultrawide-monito...)
For a cheaper setup at home: LG 27inch USB C Monitor(https://www.lg.com/us/monitors/lg-27UK850-W-4k-uhd-led-monit...)
It's like a global monte carlo letter frequency measurement experiment
- cannot even begin to understand why these things lack an important usability feature like MegSafe: there is really absolutely no reason why it cannot coexist with the ThunderBolt I/O (4 TB ports, one MegSafe: charge it however the heck you want).
- find the presence of the castrated TouchBar an offense to users. It seems they just want to shove it down our throats whether we want it or not. Just make it optional: I'm sure that there are certain users out there that love it but every single peer of mine [1] hates the sole idea of something like that.
[1] I'm a software guy in the Valley
I'm very tired of having to settle for serious shortcomings in what used to be such a great product.
IMO, those are completely different.
The sscape key provides access to a fundamental concept, "go back, undo, I didn't mean it, no!". This even goes beyond humans. E.g, my dogs have the same concept.
Function keys are abstract in a distended way... they mean, generally, some function specific to a certain context that doesn't fit into the general patterns, but is maybe pretty commonly needed in that context.
IMO, the Touch Bar, with text and graphical cues, is better suited. Of course, various software has been written to the F1-12 abstraction, and physical keys are nicer to type on, so it's not all good. But I think this is a case of one step back, two steps forward.
For me I'd actually pay to have a model without TouchBar (but with TouchID, which actually is really useful).
While I don't know if we should be applauding Apple so heavily, it's good to see that they "listened" to customer feedback and made these changes. I know that I'll be looking forward to getting one after my 2015 MBP gives out.
* 2.4GHz 8‑core 9th‑generation Intel Core i9 processor, Turbo Boost up to 5.0GHz
* 64GB 2666MHz DDR4 memory
* AMD Radeon Pro 5500M with 8GB of GDDR6 memory
* 8TB SSD storage
for $6099USD. I wonder how it will handle the thermals.
45W is easily doable, gaming notebook vendors can easily get up to 100W in a mobile package.
Apple and other "major brands" had a string of borderline laughable engineering mistakes over the past 5 years.
For example, in their latest 12 inch Macbook, they simply put a blower to work as an exhaust fan, but then forgot that the keyboard membrane has no sealing just above it.
That is quite respectable! As large battery as possible, instead of saving the few grams or cubic millimeters.
I'm comparing this to for example Lenovo, which seems to like coming up with imaginary battery life promises ("The T490 delivers up to 16.1 hours of battery life") and then cutting the actual battery to minimum.
Feels like they claim "best typing experience" every time they release a new laptop.
“When we changed the key travel from 1.0mm to 0.5mm, it was so much better that it became the best keyboard in the world. And now, with the change from 0.5mm to 1.0mm, we’ve made it even better than ever: Welcome to the world’s best typing experience.”
Meanwhile, every time I take out my 6 years old Thinkpad T440s the keyboard feels nice instantly.
When you write software presumably you think each release is the best experience each time?
I REALLY loved the short travel distance of .55mm :( I could type so much faster, bordering on 160wpm
What do you expect them to say?
I'm typing on a 2014-era Macbook Pro right now and I doubt any new scissor keys are gonna feel better than this. All of the newer Macbook Pros I've typed on have been terrible.
Years ago, I switched to a Surface Book, and while I'm tempted to go back for this MBP I reckon that a Surface Book update would be enough to kill any desire for the Mac range. While Apple stagnated, many of the high-end manufacturers caught up.
When I don't need the extra power, I think I'd rather travel with an easy to replace $900 laptop than a $3,000 one for ease of mind.
Which, of course, makes me wonder whether they will ever abandon their hubris with software. There really ought to be a Rosetta-style compatibility layer for 32-bit and GC apps in macOS. Sadly, I don't think that will ever happen. Anyone know whether it's possible to install Mojave on one of these?
I've been a Mac user for thirteen years this month. I'm not sure I can buy another one.
I think the pricing is very competitive, given that the ThinkPad is a giant box. So even if Lenovo lowers its price in the next iteration of its ThinkPad, the MacbookPro will quite match up.
Kudos for Apple for doing this!
I decided after some testing that I prefer the keyboard on my calculator.
Then I had to ask what the point was of making a laptop so thin that it can't have any real ports, then having to carry a bag full of adapters?
I'll stick with my Thinkpad T480
That said, I'm glad they bumped up the base to 512GB and the keyboard is improved.
Wow! A physical escape key?!? A scissor mechanism?!? Will the innovation ever cease?!!?!
But more seriously, kudos to them for the full 180 fix.
(Well, I know some hate the existence of the Touch Bar, but I think it has very interesting potential which perhaps could be realized with its major fatal flaw finally fixed.)
I ran the gamut looking for comparable laptops recently in an effort to figure out what I'd do if they didn't get it together, and the options really vary and nothing feels as nice.
I love the Esc key is back though and hopefully it doesn’t throttle as much as my current 2017 MBP.
https://www.apple.com/uk/shop/go/macbook_pro/select this 404s for me.
Edit: Replaced the _ with a - and it works
It's not the typing experience that was the main problem with the previous keyboard, it was that you couldn't use the laptop outdoors...
64GB of RAM in a laptop... yowza.
While I've liked some elements of the design, it's not (to me) a Pro piece of kit, and I've sine replaced it with a 2016 15" MBP which is much better built and doesn't need extra dongles to connect to everyday devices (and has magsafe, which is the best piece of design I've seen in many years).
Given this performance, I'll never buy a new Macbook again - particularly given all the issues about thermal throttling, battery life and indeed the way that macOS seems now to be going.
Don't get me wrong, there are elements of the 2017 MBP that I love - it looks amazing, the screen is fantastic and it's just so precisely made. But the lack of ports, the lack of ruggedness, the keyboard and the performance outweigh any 'look, shiny!' feeling I have about it - so much so that I've not sold it because I feel like I'm stitching the buyer up - even though they've not held their price compared to previous models, which shows that people know this to be the case, and the keyboard still has the 4 year warranty in place.
It feels like Apple is losing the spirit of doing things itself, whether other people dislikes it. Apple is more and more becoming a usual company that just does what consumers demands. And I'm sad with that.
We have basically a computer which will never allow you to install what you want except if that software is signed by apple in a process taking 1 minute and said to garantee an extra level of security (how this process is able to check on any security issue in 1 minute is beyond my understanding) to user.
So they simply lose the ability to install anhthing not signed by apple. Old programs, a ton of open source programs. If Apple decide tomorrow to stop its signin program (and it will happen soon or later), user will be basically stuck with a computer limited to install Mac Appstore Software.
This is as significant as the fact there was a nodejs issue regarding the inability of the team behind it to distribute new release of nodejs because apple server simply refused to sign the package that contained the binary.
Apple computers are destined to become giant iPhone once apple decide to ditch apple notarization program, and the user will be leftwith absolutelly no control of what's happen in their computer like what is the case in ios device.
How someone with technical education can be satisfied with such scenario is beyond me. AApple computer are simply becoming Grandma computer.
But I've always preferred the "6-key" layout, as seen on ThinkPads. Half-height arrow keys, but then an additional key on top of both Left and Right.
Commonly marked as Page Up / Page Down, but easily reconfigurable to 2 additional arbitrary hotkeys.
Looks nice and symmetrical enough for Apple. Wish they would use it.
Problems I currently have that are annoying:
- I miss the 13” air form factor a lot. I knew it would be a trade off for the performance, but using this beast anywhere but on a desk is pretty tough. On a plane you need a first class seat to open it. It gets super super hot with most workloads.
- there is an obnoxious electrical whine coming from the mainboard and it might be the SSD. Lots of videos on YouTube show that the ssd actually makes a lot of noise and almost sounds like it’s a physical disk. Poor manufacturing from Toshiba.
I guess that’s really it. I just wish I could use it on the couch without burning my thighs. I don’t have any qualms with the keyboard or touchbar. I have caps lock remapped to escape so that doesn’t bug me. Also the touchbar is in “old school mode” or whatever so it looks like a regular function key bar on a non touchbar Mac.
I also have press-and-release option/alt for esc, but sometimes get lazy and try to hit the tiny touchbar icon for esc.
A physical escape key will be nice to have, and inverted T arrows will be really nice to have.
I wish they'd added haptic feedback to the rest of the touchbar, but I'll take it.
This might be in part because I'm a tall man, with large hands and long fingers, and also Esc normally has more of a separation from adjacent keys than capslock does.
But another reason I don't want to remap caps lock is that when I am typing on a coworker's computer, odds are high they don't have things remapped the same way. Imagine looking like an idiot in front of your peers, because your muscle memory makes you not know how to type :)
(Also, I'm not sure if people who do that remapping swap caps lock with a different key? Personally, I fully utilize the caps lock key - it wouldn't be much of an improvement to put it in an unusual location, and getting rid of it is not something I'd consider.)
tl;dr - Different people have diverse habits, preferences and needs. Apple's challenge is to design a keyboard layout that works well for as many as possible.
It always surprised me how broken the palm rejection was on the recent MacBook Pro since previous models (2012-2015) running the same macOS version had no such issues; moreover, palm rejection also works fine on the iPad and iPhone.
First heard about it back in March, when all OEMs were scrambling to make lookalike products before Apple's release.
Would be interesting to know if they went back to Samsung panels from LG. I remember Samsung salesmen were pushing hard their new 500 and 600 nit panels a year ago.
The second was the move away from the 17 MBP I know they are not popular and I know the reasons for killing it, but I develop on the road a lot and the extra screen space helps when a second monitor is not practical.
Had this been out 6 months ago I may have reconsidered my switch to a PC. That being said I am happy with my switch.
Is this the first time we got a starting price on the Mac Pro?
(if I won the lottery)
Looks like Apple will be getting another $3K or so of my money 6 months from now after other people beta test the new MBP for bugs.
Wow, that is a lot of computer. Even the base model is 16gb and 512gb.
Wow..
In November 2019.
OK.
"Mac Pro starts at $5,999 and Pro Display XDR starts at $4,999. Both will be available to order in December through apple.com."
They keep announcing it, yet you still can't buy it. I wonder why.
Which is still quite poor - Thinkpads offer between 1.3 to 1.9mm of travel depending on the model. It is surprising that a $1Trillion computer hardware company cannot design the best keyboard in the world while tiny Lenovo seems to have done much better.
Why would a "pro" user care more thinness and form than the usability of the primary input mechanism?
Add: It's not merely the travel. Lenovo keyboards are so slightly concave which offer perceivably better support for finger tips. The key surface also has a rougher texture instead of being flat, smooth and glossy, which I hope more manufacturers will emulate.
I have no idea if this new laptop's keyboard is any good, but it would have to take several steps back before you get to lenovo. One arrow key pops on and off as I use it. (This lappy is 4 months old and I've rarely done anything but remote into it so the keyboard should be pristine.) The escape key needs to be pressed extra hard -- beyond the "click" -- to register sometimes. Also, the right-click area on the trackpad expands and contracts mysteriously (best just to turn that off.)
Of course, my issue is that they have some sort of internal catastrophic process failure if they were able to release a keyboard that fails so consistently. It wasn't just bad design, it was a process that seemingly did zero testing behind some Apple employees typing "hello world" on a ground floor clean room and going "yep, seems good."
I look forward to see how the 16" MBP shakes out. I can believe that they redesigned the keys, but not that they fixed a gaping hole in their fundamental processes responsible for a dud keyboard that they had no idea how to fix.
- It's got no number pad, so the screen, the keyboard and the touch pad are aligned with the nose of the user, which doesn't have to shift the laptop to the right to work and have 2/3 of the screen to his/her right.
- It's got a slightly larger screen than my HP ZBook but it's narrower and lighter: 14.09 inches (35.79 cm) and 4.3 pounds (2.0 kg)
- It can go up to 8 TB of storage and 64 GB of RAM (but there are laptops with 128 GB in 2019).
I didn't investigate if it can be upgraded (RAM and SSD) or if everything is soldered.
I’m surprised to not see people talking about it in the comments. 3900 US without Apple care? Holy god. I bought the max spec or close to it in 2015 for 800+$ less. The differences are negligible, and then I spent an additional 200$ on dongles I don’t want. I’m probably not done. When all was said and done I spent 4600$ on this machine. I make my living on a computer and I need the pro part of the MacBook Pro, but it is still a really jaw dropping price for what it is.
I put 16GB in my 2013 Mac Book Pro. The extra RAM is key to getting a few more years of use.
An external SSD would be fine but Mac laptops never have enough ports.
For anyone who is going to use this as their primary computer, the real price is 2800$.
That's a lot... Who is the end consumer here? Folks who are computer illiterate and want 'the best' laptop apple has to offer?
Laptops promote poor posture, can't match desktop speeds and are expensive! Their use-case to me is limited to business people who hop from meeting to meeting all day, but then you don't need the horsepower and will be fine with a 500$ option.
There is always this lurking sense that if my existing MB Pro dies, that I would have to transition to something with a defect.
This new model has piqued my interest. I am excited to see that it has a bump in memory. That has always been something that has not sat well with me. Newer software demanding more and more memory while models of the MB Pro has been released with no increases in RAM.
While I'm immensely happy with my new OS - a lot more could be said about the hardware ( especially when running larger screens on pc that just can't keep up battery wise ).
This is a phenomenal step in the right direction, but one that comes too late for me. At this point I can't begin to consider jumping back until macOS sees some substantial improvements.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21526058 has few comments but points to a long interview with Phil Schiller that has some interesting things but (brace yourself) says basically nothing about the touch bar.
I was stunned that no one at Apple heard that ridiculously obnoxious CLACK CLACK CLACKING and didn't think we would do something about that.
Does anyone inside Apple know how that disaster of a keyboard came to be? How did logic and rationality not see it turfed the moment it was trialled?
(This new keyboard claims to be quieter. Although calling it "magic" is just so pretentious and so.. Apple)
The real issue here is the intel chip. New vulnerabilities have just been found and the company isn’t addressing them so I’m starting to question the platform.
What about an AMD machine. It would be cooler, slower yet un-throttled so about the same performance. But it wouldn’t be a sitting duck.
> Cupertino, California — Apple today unveiled an all-new 16-inch MacBook Pro — the world’s best pro notebook
It’s on apple.com for fuck’s sake and if you don’t know that Apple is based in California, do you really care? Why do they write this stuff as if it’s some other entity writing about Apple as opposed to “today we are pleased to announce...”?
Edit: You can do this natively since Mojave(?) in the keyboard settings without having to resort to something like Karabiner.
Particularly annoying when you're a vim user :D
It honestly astounds me that the device that has traditionally been adopted most by developers has lost so much of what developers need in favour of gimmicks.
Look, people, Apple high-end laptops generally cost $3-4K. And if you think that's high, you're forgetting that (in many of our cases) you're running your whole business on that.
$3-4K every couple of years should be in the noise. Cost relative to other laptops has little meaning, if you want high-end Apple gear.
I'd like to see the touchbar disappear completely, and the function keys return - but the real escape key and no butterfly keyboard is enough of a change that I think I can finally buy another MacBook!!
It was definitely off the cards for a few years there, and I was starting to wonder what I was going to do!
Especially for a 16" laptop, I'd like something without a mess of dongles and adapters. The 2015 15" Macbook was pretty good in this department, but Apple is on a port-cutting rampage.
Still, the important thing is that Apple seemingly listened to feedback. Too many double down on bad decisions regardless of feedback.
That said, the only cool use for the TouchBar that I've noted is with iTerm2. Changing terminal colors on the fly from the TouchBar is actually kinda nifty.
Just a huge bit.
Apple do take your current model back for credit but given I’ll only get 900 pounds for it (presumably much more in the USA!) I guess I’ll stick to it for now. I’d be happy to pay a few hundreds for the upgrade; it’s unjustifiable to upgrade for full price minus a 900 pound discount.
I'll be sticking with my 13" 2015 MBP for the foreseeable future. I'll just build up a home machine that I can log into and do some heavier workloads on.
The thermal design updates are welcome, that was seriously crippling previous Macbook Pros.
I'd love to know how long and what clock rate the 8-core 16" MBP can sustain multi-core workloads running at 100% core utilisation. My guess is for a minute or so at 3.5ghz+.
I was scared away from Apple by the keyboards and found a new dev home in Windows. I've tried to go back for personal projects, but it's just too much conversion for very little compensation.
I think I'm done with Apple macs
But is it strange to anyone else that a company that prides itself on being innovative and motto is "think different" is parading around a screen size change and a keyboard regression as the biggest selling points for a product launch?
Apple states that it also scales to
• 1920x1200 (3:5)
• 1680x1050 (48:25)
• 1280x800 (12:5)
The 16" display has a 16:10 aspect ratio.
I just wish they would allow Linux to be installed natively on it (with supported touchbar drivers, etc.).
And a small part of me secretly wants Apple to release a MBP with a TrackPoint, just to see people's reactions ;-)
> Today, Apple also announced that the all-new Mac Pro... will be available in December
def test_apple_is_back_for_pros():
16_mbp = 16MBP()
16_mbp_specs = 16_mbp.specs
self.assertTrue(16_mbp_specs.thicker)
self.assertTrue(16_mbp_specs.escape_key)
self.assertTrue(16_mbp_specs.larger_battery)
self.assertTrue(16_mbp_specs.better_kb)
Apple could do well to dust off that design, toss in an updated processor, and put whatever price tag they wanted on it.
Hopefully the new keyboard is reliable.
The Touch Bar is forgettable and a row of physical function keys would be an improvement. I don't know any "pro" user who likes the Touch Bar or who wants to look down at the keys when typing or interact with a microscopic touch screen.
Still puzzled by the lack of ports for a pro laptop. It's 16" with a huge body, not particularly thin or light, and they couldn't add two USB-A, SD slot, HDMI? The age of a dozen dongles continues.
64GB RAM option is a big plus, though the prices are 2x-3x market.
Presumably the SSD is still soldered onboard, which basically makes these unrepairable and disposable premium priced laptops.
Overall far better than what it replaced, but still missing some key features from the 2015 MBP line which remains the best Mac laptop ever made.
Will be interesting to see if they ditch the 13" and move to a 14" with similar specs.
Is there some technical reason why Face ID isn't a good fit? I can't see cost being an issue, nor physical space for the sensor.
Probably one of the most important features, even if mentioned in passing, given the problems of the butterfly mechanism.
It's four USB-C/thunderbolt ports, two on each side, and a head-phone jack.
BTW, magsafe is an optimization from a bygone era when you had to keep your laptop plugged in while using it. You can now (generally) leave your laptop unplugged as you use it and stow it somewhere out-of-the way to charge when you aren't. Like your phone or tablet. Magsafe is nice, but probably not worth it now that you don't need to routinely charge your laptop in a vulnerable position. And, of course, USB-C is very easy to plug in.
we all want that, but apparently its not coming back
Me, because I ditched that monopolistic machine, which you can't fully enjoy if you are not in Apple's ecosystem. The only Apple machine I have is macbook. Even my desktop was a hackintosh. As a developer Linux gave me extreme freedom. The only thing I miss, is the touchpad but I learned to live without it.
My girl because I gave her my Macbook Pro 2015 and moved away from windows, win-win situation, the machine will just "work"
Too bad I bought a ThinkPad back in June after THREE YEARS of ESC'less computing. This after almost two decades of not even looking at non-Mac machines.
I can't be the only software engineer who refuses to buy it on this one major issue.
Real talk, if I could easily do my own repairs, and HW replacements on it, I would get it.
Typed on the flawless keyboard of my insanely awesome, truly immersive, MBP 17" Mid 2010.
I just clicked through to the purchasing page, and at the top there is this:
"Get a refund of up to $2530 when you trade in an eligible computer, or recycle it for free.*"
If you click it, it asks you to choose if your trade in was made by Apple, or "Other" - if you select "Other", it says:
"Based on what you’ve told us, your computer is ready to recycle"
Beneath, not so hilariously, there was:
"It’s a big win for the planet. Recycling your device helps replenish resources and drive innovation."
Come on, this is marketing spin at it's worst, and not the kind of thing I'd expect a "hipster" company like Apple to say!
(Disclosure: My 2017 MBP has been repaired 8x and replaced 1x. My iPhone repaired 1x and replaced 1x.)
Would it really hurt their octibajillion dollar valuation too much to just make things right for the customers who got shafted by their broken keyboard design?
Easily the best tradeoff for me between screensize and carry-ability.
That's a big deal for everyone. I do not know why it's not 100W but I will take what I can get. You see, Apple landing on 87W for their USB C adapter led to a lot of third party chargers also being 87W (or if multiple ports then one maxing out there) which is very frustrating to those who need more oomph. There's something to be said about education in the US when you need to explain to people a higher wattage charger doesn't damage their equipment...
I guess LED screen is left for the next iteration of innovation.
Sass aside, thank you. I'm very pleased!
I like the changes. I wish they would target weight next. 2kg is nearly twice as heavy as the same size LG Gram and 33% heavier than then 17" LG Geam.
No, I don't want an LG Gram but I would love a lighter 16" MacBook Pro.
I'll be taking the 2017 to the Apple store and get them to fix it up under their keyboard (and hopefully battery) replacement program.
I realize i don't even look at other laptop makers just because i need to build iOS apps (which in theory shouldn't have any kind of relation) That's probably the textbook definition of monopolistic abuse.
Thank god for the return to sanity
More pixels in the 15.6 Xeon chip 5ghz 128GB ECC memory
I guess I’m wondering what metric singles this one out as being best?
Apple have probably decided that it is the best because it has the best hardware that is running OSX. I think they consider any other OS inferior, no matter what hardware it is running on.
Hallelujah!!
1) Ryzen Options; Icelake Options 2) Regular USB 3 Ports and 3.5mm Jack 3) Make the Touchbar Optional. 4) Do not solder stuff to the Board.
it's == (it is | it has)
It's my responsibility to correct grammar. it's been tough for the Lions this year.
its == (the thing belonging to it) You should always judge a book by its cover.
"Look, we give you your Esc and arrow keys back"
it's a scam.
What the hell! I'm going to try getting a replacement from Apple. The 15" upgrade that I got was just announced too when I got it.
Please tell me how I do proper GPU compute on a Mac.
Also keep in mind that warranty and repairs on Mac products are a complete ripoff.
“Hey Siri, wake me up next year.”
For me personally think this could work, not having an esc button was a deal breaker for me but this might just convince me to finally upgrade my old mbp retina
My Late 2013 MBP has been serving me well for the last 5 or so years, but I've been wanting to upgrade it ever since 2016 (the battery life is quite poor & the GPU is showing its age). I refused once I saw the changes in the 2016 MBP, and was glad I never bought in after seeing more and more complaints about the machines roll in every subsequent year. I spent the next two years hoping for a redesign & started to give up. As much as I didn't want to, I've been spending the past few months looking at ThinkPads and Dells and mapping out my transition from OS X to Linux.
As much as I love OS X (and I do -- I've been dreading having to leave it), I just could not spend $2000+ dollars on a computer that I was going to have to fight with to make it work like my old one. This is going to be a daily driver, not a novelty or a toy. Yes, I could've remapped my escape key to caps lock. Yes, I could've bought a bigger laptop bag that could fit a small external keyboard. Yes, I could have learned to live with the new key travel. This is all beside the point if you ask me: I shouldn't have to do that.
Frankly, I'd be okay if Apple kept the old model around, as some people (including many commenters above me) have grown to prefer the butterfly keyboard. Maybe some people prefer the extra touch bar space? (I don't see why it has to be one or the other; I remember how many MBP variations/SKUs Apple carried when I started buying MBPs back in 2010.)
Just give me the option to opt out of these things -- even most of these things -- and I'll keep writing you checks. I'm looking forward to doing this in a couple months assuming the reviews on this machine are good.
Here is a nickel kid: buy yourself a real computer -Dilbert
In my eyes, that makes it a non-starter for an alleged "Pro" laptop. For the professional work I do, an SD card reader (for photos and video), HDMI/DisplayPort (for presentations, either in the boardroom or better viewing of photos and videos), USB A (because thumb drives), and for my specific work, an ethernet jack, are all required to do my job. Also magsafe power is a lifesaver.
I'll be holding onto my 2014 15" until it's cold and dead. And if Apple still doesn't have a suitable replacement, Lenovo likely will still have great pro laptops.
• The keyboard uses scissor switches (and thus hopefully won't completely die), but still only has 1mm of key travel.
• They added back an escape key to the top row, but the touch bar is still there—and there's still no function keys as a result.
The keyboard, okay, maybe Apple really needs those thinness metrics for marketing purposes—but would it really have killed them to up the travel to 2mm? And, why the heck are they so dug in on the touchbar? While I admittedly only have anecdotal evidence, I think it's relatively clear at this point that neither users nor developers have taken to it in any significant way. Just kill it already. It's been three years—if people haven't discovered how amazing it is by now, they aren't going to have a sudden awakening.
Surely the thinness of the keyboards hasn't been relevant in marketing in a while? what kind of consumer does this excite? Surprised Apple are still shouting about it.