That said, I'm not sure I can justify another keyboard.
I agree; I can't justify yet another keyboard. But there's the continuous itch to go ham and design my own split contour keyboard with QMK...
(For anyone reading this, you literally can't go wrong with either of these keyboards and they'll last 10+ years, so get one if you can.)
As a bonus it doesn’t look like a science-lab on your desk, like a lot of other ergonomic keyboards do. Got to say this new Advantage 360 has a really nice look though.
I want that but curved a bit and tented, without a change in layout.
1. <http://xahlee.info/kbd/dactyl_keyboard.html>
2. <https://ohkeycaps.com/products/built-to-order-dactyl-manufor...>
Anyone made that switch that can compare/contrast?
(I'm still using it every day for work, but want to try something else soon, probably a Kyria).
The Ergodox has 1.5U keys between the hands (like to the right of T,G,B, and to the left of Y,H,N), while the moonlander just has 1U keys next to T,G and Y,H. I found the 1.5U keys much easier to press than the 1U keys. (Try typing "RGB" on a QWERTY keyboard; it's really not that easy to make your pointer finger responsible for 12 equally-sized keys.) As a result, I moved backspace from the 1.5U key next to H,N to a thumb key. The thumb isn't as fast for rapid motions as the pointer finger is, so I notice backspace being a little more cumbersome than necessary. But, I don't really think about it anymore, so it's not a big deal. (I do see my usage of the 1U keys falling off, though. I used have _- and =+ on them, and I find myself going for shift-= instead of the dedicated + key. I think that's because my Ergodox didn't have a + key, that was backspace, and I never learned it.)
Both the Ergodox EZ and Moonlander have godawful tenting. But the Moonlander lets you fix it because it has an array of threaded inserts on the back that you can screw a proper tent to. I use this thing https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4769961 and love it.
Generally the Moonlander is quite appealing. I use it every day and it's great. (I did replace the switches with Zilents. I always use weird switches on my keyboards.) But I'm looking at the Advantage 360 and think they've done a really job, so it's definitely a third option to consider.
Finally, I've experimented with other designs. I made a 107 key keyboard (I call it the Ergorocks 107) that is Ergodox-like, but has 3 1U switches for the thumb clusters, a number pad in the middle, and F keys above the number keys. I fucked up the angle of the thumb keys, and found the numpad in the middle hard to use. I made it take a standard keyset, though, so you don't have to hunt for "Ergo" keysets. You can use any normal keyset! If this is interesting to anyone, I might make a second iteration with the bugs fixed. (It's entirely 3D printed. Don't let people tell you 3D printed keyboards are bad, they're great. PLA is honestly a great keyboard material; very rigid and pretty quiet.)
Still worth it though
Still totally worth it.
e: also switches are hotswappable on the Moonlander, they are fixed (soldered)on the Ergodox iirc.
e2: They are hotswappable on the EZ :)
I'd never seen anything that suggested that split keyboards were a good solve for the shoulder pain but I'd reached that point of just throwing shit at a wall because it was that, or find a new career and hobbies. Moving my keyboard so my forearms can sit slightly wider than perpendicular to my chest has almost completely resolved the shoulder pain and the impact was almost immediate.
Unfortunately, the solution came a bit late. The strain on my nerves and blood vessels caused by the thoracic outlet syndrome has damaged my arm nerves. And after the second rib resection, the one on the left side, my plexus brachialis got severely damaged. It took nearly 2 years to partially recover. My left arm gets tired very fast in certain positions, my left thumb is partially numb and sleeping on my left shoulder can be painful.
I can't image how much worse it would be without my Kinesis Advantage keyboard and my Wacom Bamboo tablet. Using another computer or laptop with an normal keyboard, touchpad or mouse, is hell. An iPad Pro with a pencil (and a tablet stand to hold the tablet) is much better.
TOS killed my programming career. It ruined my life and brought me untold mental and physical pain. At one point I couldn't use my arms for more than thirty minutes a day. Even taking a shower was exhausting. I underwent two surgeries, one two remove the ribs and muscles entrapping my nerves. After the first surgery things were good for awhile, my hands were no longer purple (due compression on the vein/artery) and I could actually use a keyboard again. Unfortunately scar tissue grew over my nerves and entrapped them again. At this point I required a second surgery to remove the tissue, which worked quite well and enabled my to use my arms again. Unfortunately, nothing is perfect in life and I still have some tissue that is interfering with my neck and causing chronic pain for which I take a variety of medications for. I currently work a low end job in health care because I can't sit at a desk for 8 hours a day without substantial pain (trust me I've tried everything, at this point I could open an ergonomic store).
I just want to give a shout out to a fellow TOS victim, especially one in the tech world. It's a very rare condition and it's very damaging (imaging not being able to touch your phone without pain) and I wish there was more awareness.
For a start, it stops the need for hunching shoulders as the halves can be placed to fit shoulder width.
This is for another split contoured keyboard, but it would help explain https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/rc2pxj/t...
1) Stretching my fingers. Yup. You gotta stretch a) curl motion of each finger, across the top of your hand, b) uncurling motion of each finger, through your palm, c) uncurling the thumb-pinky (touch your pinky to your thumb.. that's what you do when you hold the mouse... do the opposite as a stretch)
2) A good PT who can actually debug my body. I tried 5+ massage/osteo/PT professionals before finding her based on recommendation. Most were completely bad. One was decent but didn't fix the whole problem. Finally I found someone who could fix the problems.
I also got a Kinesis Advantage 2, but honestly with the 2 above tips I'm not sure you need it.
I missed the pre-order, but I grabbed a Logitech ergo kb from the local Microcenter a few days ago and already the changes have been substantial! Of course I am also focusing consciously on the breath, using my diaphragm not my stomach or clavicles. Thanks again! I never considered it until I read your comment.
While typing it keeps my arms on the chair's armrests with my hands just extending forward, and the current armrest height keeps my wrists an inch or so above the desk so I don't need to worry about tracking down wrist pads or such.
Happy to see they are moving away from their own software configuration. Not a fan of the software interface on the Freestyle Pro. More than once I have gotten myself into a loop where I am unsure which function mode is activated and how to switch back to what I want.
I am still likely to get this once it is out, but still not the "end game" keyboard of my dreams.
I consider this an upgrade. I personally think layer beats any keys I can't hit without taking my hands off home row.
That said my other main daily driver is an HHKB so I'm pretty used to switching layer for F keys.
On the whole the “home row” insistence seems like a bit of an obsession at times. It’s often nice, comfortable, and efficient, but I refuse to believe that anyone ever got hurt (RSI and all that) by moving their hands to the nav cluster every once in a while. (Or else all those piano players must be in some real trouble.)
I like the tenkeyless formfactor. Then I get a standard keyboard minus the numpad. And I can use a dedicated numpad if I need it.
Function keys are on the number row with a Fn modifier (Fn+1 for F1).
You get used to it in about half an hour. It becomes second nature in less than a week.
It makes the keyboard much more compact, which is definitely a plus. Less hand movement, less deskspace consumed, lighter.
It seems like I should go stock some of the old version in case they decide to discontinue it and only offer non-Fn version later.
Damn, I missed that part. The original Advantage has a set of small rubber F keys along the top which works surprisingly well given the amount that I use them (i.e. rarely).
Looking a bit more, I see that there are an extra set of keys on the "inside" of each half (to the right of G and left of H) - it's plausible that remapping these to key function keys would be enough for most use cases.
That being said, I don't see a reason to upgrade. I've ordered replacement key wells so I can install my own switches, and since the Advantage is my desk keyboard I'm not worried about portability.
That may be the case, but the issue I have with this is that I need, often enough, to press random F keys while not actively using the keyboard. Like for example refresh HN while eating an apple (F5). It's a pain to have to press multiple keys.
“But the home row.” Right. And that’s sometimes a plus. But (1) moving your hands a bit is often not a big deal (unless you have to go back and forth a lot—then I think it’s a drag), and (2) even if things like using the (F key layer) arrow keys might be comfortable, it might not be comfortable to have to use yet another modifier key in order to use common functions like move-by-word (e.g. Ctrl+Left) or even move-and-mark-by-word (Ctrl+Shift+Left).
It’s not an objective win either way. So you definitely cannot just say that it “isn’t a big deal” as if having to use another layer has no cost associated with it.
e.g: LayerX + cmd + shift + 9 to rebuild a file. There are much worse offenders I am sure.
> Function Keys reside in new “Fn” Layer
> 10-Key resides in the traditional “Keypad” Layer
People can swear up and down how intuitive and natural layers are, but I do not care. If there is ever a decision to be made between more and fewer keys, I always want to default to more.
The Kinesis Advantage 2 fits a Magic Trackpad perfectly right in the middle of the keyboard. This lets you perform mouse actions with you right and left hands.
Emacs keybindings never made sense to me till I tried them with the Kinesis. I feel like Emacs sucks on a standard Mac keyboard and is awesome with a Kinesis. See here for a blog post on the topic if you're interested in learning more: https://mungingdata.com/emacs/learning-emacs-keybindings-aft...
It takes a while to get used to the keyboard layout, but only takes a week to get fully productive. You're eventually able to train your brain to operate fluently on Kinesis & Macbook key layouts without any extra thinking. It's a great investment if you're willing to put in a bit of effort.
What I really want is an ergo keyboard with Macbook/laptop style low-travel keys.
I’ve more or less stopped using a mouse and rely on keyboard shortcuts, when those fail I have the trackpad within striking distance.
Split hands though? Bluetooth? This is an instant-buy for me.
Differentiating by wired/wireless makes sense.
Using two different programming systems? No.
ZMK instead of adding BT support to QMK? Why?
RGB underglow but not individually programmable key backlights?
For the money they are charging, all of these things should have been extremely easy decisions. Anyone have insight?
I've been using a kinesis advantage for years, and I'm seriously considering getting one of these.
I do not at all care about ZMK vs QMK -- I don't even know why I should care.
RGB underglow? I don't even care that it's there, let alone programmable key backlights.
I care about ergonomics. The selling point is the split, and bluetooth/wireless capability, on top of all the existing ergonomic benefits.
Individually programmable key backlights is nice, but imo a gimmick. That being said I never use backlights on a laptop keyboard, or mech keyboard, so I don't know what the use case for wanting ur Q to light up in a colour different to your W key would be.
Also this board is not that expensive.
You generally don't want Q to light up different from W, but you might want to have a low-level green glow by default and slightly brighter colors to distinguish keys around the periphery.
QMK is licensed under the GPL, which disallows linking with proprietary Bluetooth stacks. That might be one reason.
My workmates gaming keyboard led patterns That change with every key press drive me nuts, though.
speculation, but I'm pretty confident: ZMK is MIT licensed and QMK is GPL
Does it have a decent mac layout? Is cmd+tab easy to type? Is copy/paste ergonomic? I have no idea because the pictures don't show it, and scrolling around on their site is awful (you can't quickly scan around because of the stupid animations taking 2 seconds for pictures to pop in even if you're quickly scrolling past.)
So the Advantage comes with extra keycaps for mac that let you replace the windows keys with option keys, not sure if the 360 will have that.
On the regular Advantage, the option keys are controlled by the thumb. You can, of course, remap anything you want to remap.
Some shortcuts no longer work for one-handed use.
As an aside I've always wondered why the Katana60 [2] didn't have much interest as it seemed like a reasonable regular to full ergo in-between and IMHO more comfortable than something like a Planck. Though whilst I have tried the Plank I've not actually tried the Katana60 IRL. Looking forward to keyboard meetups again the post COVID future.
[1] https://twitter.com/kinesisergo/status/1470446358372896772
Also, plug for the yet unreleased Glove80 https://www.moergo.com/, as someone who prefers low-profile switches.
It does take some getting used to, but once you've made the transition, you won't want to go back. You'll type faster, with almost no strain, and more accurately.
I've had a basic ergo keyboard (MS sculpt ergonomic) for a while and it's much much better than regular keyboards;
However I think all ergo keyboard companies are missing the point those days:
"Just-a-keyboard" doesn't cut it anymore in the world of laptops. I want an ergonomic keyboard with a built-in Macbook-class touchpad, or ThinkPad-class trackpoint + three buttons. (I know it's tricky, especially with split keybord; conceptually it feels it almost can't be done).
Unfortunately most of software those days has pretty limited functionality if you want to use it 100% with a keyboard only. And no matter what best keyboard you have, adding a trackpad or mouse to it is just clunky and slows you down due to endless context-switching.
Are there any examples of ergo keyboard with built-in pointing device? I never found any.
If you really want a trackpad, get an Apple one and drop it in the middle of your split keyboard. It will still be bad for your wrists though.
I'm adding analog thumbsticks (the style you'd find e.g. on a playstation controller) to my split keyboard. I expect them to suck too but maybe 0.5% less than the nipple on thinkpad keyboards. That one keeps tempting me because it's in a convenient positoin but it just drives me mad every time I try to get anything done with it.
At least it's customizable.
I added a Bluetooth keyboard converter, LiPo, and charge controller inside the case.
Unfortunately the Sparkfun documentation for the charge controller implied that it would prevent undervolting which wasn't true, and the battery died. They fixed the documentation but wouldn't send me a replacement battery. I didn't have the money for a new one at the time and reverted it.
At the end of the day the solution for me is to move in different ways and to build strength to combat fatigue. The trouble to adapt to Dvorak or curved, exceptionally ergonomic layouts isn't worth it for me, nor is the cost.
Kinesis has been around since the early 90s making keyboards like this.
Is it me or the price difference between the two makes the Pro model a no-brainer? Wireless, backlighting, better keycaps, and better programming model for only $40 more?
IMHO assuming you have no ergonomic setup at all you're better off buying a Kinesis Freestyle, a used Steelcase/Herman Miller chair, and a VESA mount for your monitor/laptop to make it eye level - all of which can be had for the cost of the Pro version.
That being said this looks like a very nice purchase for those who have the money to micro optimize.
Switched back to Freestyle 2 and I couldn't be happier.
https://kinesis-ergo.com/keyboards/advantage360/#faqs
"Which keycaps should I get? This one is easy…
Dye-Sublimation PBT: These are premium keycaps that are resistant to sheen and and fade. If you don’t plan to use the backlighting then this is the set you want. You have a choice of Dvorak or QWERTY legends. Shine-Through ABS: If you want to work in a low-light environment you’ll need to select these if you want to be able to read the key legends. This set is only available with QWERTY legends at this time."
On Dvorak, your fingers automatically drift back to the home row because of how the letters are arranged, so I found myself touch-typing after several months with no specific effort. Plus, iOS only has QWERTY, so the phone keyboard keeps me in practice enough to use QWERTY on off occasions.
Dvorak plus the Kinesis Advantage, for me at least, is the most comfortable combination. Speed is probably a bit slower than a flat keyboard, but it's about long-term comfort, not speed, when I type as much as I have to every day.
I only use escape in vim though, and there I mapped the jk key combination to escape instead. (:map! jk <esc>) I'm trying to stop using the physical escape key completely. If it's not where I expect it that will go faster.
The function keys do almost nothing in Linux so I won't miss them.
My main regret with my Advantage keyboard is that I should have bought it 20 years earlier. So I could totally see myself getting this. Even if I think 3.2 pounds is a little on the heavy side.
There is layout photo in one of the FAQ answers.
General observations:
1. Overall I prefer the Advantage over the Ergodox. The big reason is the contoured design and the fact that the Ergodox tends to walk around unless you have a solid desk pad underneath it. Also, the Ergodox never felt as comfortable as the Advantage. Yes the Advantage is not as easy to travel with but still.... 2. I like the new design, but there are a few things that would have made the pro perfect. PBT backlit keycaps like they offer on the Ergodox-EZ and RGB backlighting...and maybe a set of f-keys (on the fence with the last one).
One other thing... A mix of o-rings and QMX clips made a huge difference with the feel of the keyboard for me. I have been a cherry brown user from the beginning though and different people have different preferences with that.
Kinesis is also really good about providing parts and service. I've had them send me replacement switches and have seen them offer up in-expensive replacement boards to repair and keep older models going.
I'm going to buy one of these, but given that I already have 4 high quality mechanical keyboards and I have yet to have one die I am starting to feel guilty having all of these laying around. That said there is a side of me that is curious about the Keyboard.io :)
I really want to try it again, but nervous if I’ll be unlucky with the same issues.
https://kinesis-ergo.com/wp-content/uploads/Adv360-Pro-Asymm...
I've already settled on my "endgame" desktop keyboard in the Matias Ergo Pro though. Don't like layouts that stray too far from ANSI.
I would google around and read some reviews on Amazon and Reddit before committing. Sadly these issues seem common.
Their warranty support was… not good. Their COO didn’t really stand by their product. I know 4 other people who had similar experiences - they all love the keyboard but switched after it basically fell apart.
I’d buy another in a heartbeat if I knew it would last well beyond the warranty like every single other keyboard I’ve ever had over 32 years of computer ownership.
Edit: Found the large picture via url hacking! https://kinesis-ergo.com/wp-content/uploads/Adv360-Overhead_...
I have Advantage keyboard and usually wrote off physically separated keyboards, but thinking more about it now, I do wish my Advantage's two splits were angled a liiiittle more. So, I'll probably get this 360.
I do hope however that us_intl layout becomes more widespread and the AltGr modifier key is universally present in US keyboards without having to set it up.
I don't think a lack of drawers was the problem!
I wish kinsis would make qmk support a default option. Custom layouts and layers are just too useful for me to give up.
This wasn't helped by it being so far off the keyboard tray. I don't understand how someone can use the Advantage 2 without a standing desk. Even with a keyboard tray I am unable to sit my feet flat on the ground without my thighs and knees smashing into the tray the whole time.
I ended up buying a custom board for it to run QMK, as well as replacement thumb cluster keys to try lower their height as they also caused pain. These both helped a bit but thanks to their store being closed due to Covid, I had to buy off a distributor in NZ that charged the equivelent of 500USD, before spending even more on the mods done. Unfortunately ive gone back to the Moonlander as I can at least angle the boards more after wasting around $1000 NZD.
While this will solve the positioning of the keys, the height looks like it will still be an issue for me.
The big change with this one is it looks like tenting angle, cant and separation are completely configurable in this iteration, so if anything this one might help the issues you've had.
I do have an ErgoDox to really try first. Know it is an adjustment. But it is hard not to try this...
To my knowledge nothing except for maybe surgery will cure it. Excessive typing will unsurprisingly exacerbate it. I manage by remapping keys from the pinkies (emacs + ahk + Japanese keyboard with thumb keys), and using a keyboard with ultra light switches (Fujitsu libertouch with light membranes, plus cut slits in them to make them even lighter).
And I'm incredibly excited about this, mostly
Hits: - Split design - multiple bluetooth pairings/wireless connection
Misses: - No function keys?
It has some ZMK firmware which I haven't studied, I have only used QMK, otherwise looks good.
Last time I looked into it ~10 years ago I dismissed them since there didn't seem to be sufficient evidence to support the bold claims they made.
What does it look like these days? Do these keyboard work? Is it worth switching from a traditional qwerty mechanical keyboard?
However, labeled keys and unique key shapes seems like a weird combination. Especially with Enter and Space on the same side.
How do you deal with large amounts of tenting?
EDIT: my current solution is two books, one under either arm...
Muscle memory is a wonderful thing. You don’t struggle to wear two different pairs of shoes or ride two bikes.
With enough practice (three months for me) I can type easily on phone keyboards, kinesis/moonlander, and qwerty laptop keyboards.
Do yourself a favor and take care of your hands. Split, ergonomic, welled, and ortholinear keyboards make a noticeable difference for finger fatigue, RSI, etc. my wrist tenderness is gone after using my kinesis for 3 years and has not returned after using the ZSA moonlander for 3 months.
I look forward to trying this out in summer 2022 when it becomes more readily available.
[1] https://twitter.com/kinesisergo/status/1472969186561249281?s...
[2] https://www.reddit.com/r/kinesisadvantage/comments/rkoywv/ho...
Any solutions for this? I guess it is pay to play or stick with normal layouts.
Of course, this is all presuming that
A. You have enough capital to buy the keyboard and are ok with not having $300+ for a month or two
B. you can get used to the keyboard within a 30 day period and get a feel for how you’d like to use it full time
That seems like a lot. Any keyboard experts feel like explaining why a good keyboard is heavier than a laptop?
For the Advantage 360 they're saying 11 additional keycaps in the box. I'm sure one of those is a Windows key replacement.
Pre-oders on Drop.com usually stay open for a month or longer.
Two features I wished they would offer: 1. A nub-mouse like the Thinkpad 2. A touchpad in the center of the keyboard (not needed for the split)
Their keyboards are absolutely fantastic!
I have been using the Kinesys Advantage (and the LF version with Cherry MX Reds instead of Browns) for many many years. I love it but have always wanted a split version because my shoulders are too wide and I have to pull my arms in to type (like every other non-split keyboard out there).
I spent a long time looking at building a custom 3d-printed keyboard of my own but trying to find just the right keycaps (they are not all the same size) that would work with the scooped layout was tough.
I can't find it right now but there was at least one person who cut their Advantage in half and wired each side together with a long cable. It was cool that it worked, but it looked janky as hell and seemed like a good way to accidentally break a $350 keyboard.
I'm so glad this is a thing!
Kinesis advantage 2 helped me deal with carpal tunnel syndrome and forced to learn 10 finger typing, among other things.
As someone interacting with the pc for 8+ hours, this is easily the most impactful 450 Eur I've ever spent.
> How many: 360
Good luck getting one in this first drop.
I’m a big fan of this company and their products. My Advantage 2 just broke this week. I had a really great exchange with their support today, we went from initial contact to replacement part shipped VERY quickly over just a couple emails. I’m not particularly bothered by it breaking — I have a spare and I appreciate that they can just send me a new cable assembly and call it a day. If I was on the market for something portable, I’d pickup this new one in a heartbeat.
This keyboard is obviously marketed at people who spend considerable time typing. When I'm in VIM I never use the Function keys, but every other serious productivity app - from Jetbrains IDEs to Microsoft Excel to Photoshop makes heavy use of them, often with modifiers. All of these cases now become triple- or quadruple- buckies on keyboards that require holding a layer key to access the Function keys.
That is to say, it made the transition to Kinesis Advantage a breeze.
I cannot speak for how its ergonomic might or might not translate into helping with RSI, but having constant back/neck/other joints pains since I was 15, one change that I introduced to my (variable height) desk last year was, at least for me, more dramatic than any other: I installed a keyboard drawer, which enable me to align my Mirra's arm rest with the keyboard (my desk and most other variable height desks do not go low enough to allow that).
The Advantage 360 could improve my setup as and I might get it just to be able to rest my arms at my shoulders natural width, which for me should be slightly wider than the regular Advantage.
My ideal keyboard would be shaped to accommodate the neutral state of the hand. Hitting modifier and a key should feel as comfortable as a natural pincer grip. I certainly don’t want to use my weakest finger to hold a modifier key, even if it’s on the home row. I’d try to squeeze a fifth thumb key in if it could be ergonomic, so as to have control, meta, super, shift, and space all on the thumb.
The Kinesis Advantage 2 comes closer than any other board I’ve used. I’m not entirely satisfied with the lack of adjustability of the thumb cluster though. Not everyone has the same size hands after all. It’s fairly comfortable at lap level though.
When my Advantage gives out, I'll likely get a 360. They are expensive, but they are built to last in my experience (I bought my first PS/2 Kinesis keyboard 20+ years ago when I did email tech support for Iomega (Zip drives - hundreds of emails a day), had it for 10 years, sold it for half of what I paid for it) and bought the USB version of the Advantage that I still use today.
It's relieved much of my wrist pain, and I always flirt with the idea of trying a full on Advantage
I had back pain for a few years. After physio and other improvements I tried an Ergodox and that didn't fix it.
I tried to use the advantage 2 but because it was neither split nor tented it hurt my shoulder and arm so much that I couldn’t use.
This seems like the best of both worlds.
I was considering building a corne keyboard but now I can try this instead.
This model looks really slick, and adds a number of nice innovations to the form factor. I'd reconsider if my current keyboard wasn't so bullet-proof.
Am I the only one that prefers the monolith body? I typically rest my keyboard on my knees when typing, which is difficult for a split layout
Why. Every layered keyboard is FN+1-9 = F1-9
I'm sure you can reprogram it to correct this, but this is just silly.
+1 on them being an awesome company!
Looks too easy to break.
Anyway - I've tried ErgoDox some years ago and realised it's two flaws:
- too light
- not enough buttons if you need to type in more than one language and your second language has more than 26 characters.
These look great, but I'd definitely be worried about the little stands standing up to constant use.
It has never been the case for their other models :(
For some reason that sentence is extremely funny to me
Gallery of split keyboards
https://t.co/3hrNmk2PMX https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/?s=09
