Canada's immigration website crashes on election night (opens in new tab)

Things mostly have not become bad enough to move. I think Trump will be more Berlusconi than Mussolini. I hope so at least. I also wonder what it'd take to make us grab what we can and get out. If things start heading that way, it's a decision you really, really don't want to put off too long.

I moved to Canada from the US because of the G.W. Bush presidency. I'm not claiming it's statistically important, but my family moved. I'm lucky enough to be employable wherever I choose to live, so I exercised that power. Maybe you can too.

That's kind of funny. French people is the single biggest source of expats (if we ignore domestic helpers) in Hong Kong. Seems to be very common for French people to emigrate.

I think that's incredibly naive. For one thing, moving from France to Germany is a huge cultural and linguistic leap. Moving from the US to Canada is really not.

I know of a family (2A+3C) who were unhappy with the direction the UK were taking, and so moved to Sweden.

Obviously it's more said than done, but it happens and I admire those who follow through.

It entirely depends on how bad a Trump presidency turns out to be.

If you hold him to his campaign promises, at least 11 million Americans will leave.

If Le Pen manage to be president in May 2017, I'll seriously consider moving from the country. But to go where? Maybe Luxembourg, they've got a shit ton of work in my field (web dev), they pay way more than in France but life is a bit more expensive and foreign workers aren't apprecieted in the whole country. With Trump elected today, the right wings movement in France will get bigger :(

I moved from France to Germany already. If you work in software and don't like the direction France is taking, it's a no brainer.

Most don't, some do.

I myself moved from Switzerland to Colombia. Among other reasons because I wanted a break from the Swiss cultural and political climate.

But for me, emigrating isn't a definite thing. At least as long as I don't have children. Maybe I'll stay, maybe go back, maybe move somewhere else after a while.

Those who have not lived outside of the US (or NA) don't realize how hard life is for the rest of the world; most will just move right back within months.

Been there myself. Life ain't easy out there.

Edit - A little bit of context here: I am speaking as someone who was born and raised in a developing country rife with racial and political problems. My point is, a lot of people who are yelling about immigrating due to the election result are overly naive with their outlook. It takes an incredible amount of effort to adjust to a new environment, not to speak of giving up the connections and comfort they have in the US. It's not as easy as just "moving to another country".

A friend of mine moved from California to Madrid last month.

Yeah, because it turns out you can't just waltz over the border to Canada and expect to be greeted with open arms as we do in the US.

Canada would be an odd choice for many reasons, but is probably attractive for the combination of proximity, and cultural/linguistic similarities. For me, I've been looking at Ireland, Denmark, or the Netherlands for a while, and I'd say they're looking far more attractive today than yesterday.

Besides, money isn't everything. There is something to be said for not having to deal with the insane evangelicals, bitter uneducated whites, and insane levels of violence too. Not to mention the impact this will have on the SCOTUS, and how incredibly screwed up healthcare is.

Correct me if I'm wrong but lots of people here seem to think that Europe is some kind of progressive booming social-democratic economy/society with free health/education and all. The trend here IMHO is exactly the same trend that put Trump in office - only in Europe (having some more historic experience with such things) we do things a bit more hardcore. Extreme right wings (fascists) are getting more and more power, nationalistic views abound in all states, welfare state is being dismantled, etc. Our 'Mexicans' equivalent are people fleeing from war zones (Syria, Afganistan, etc) that get dumped in buffer Southern states (mainly Italy/Greece). Economy is in shambles for most countries (add in the terrible lock-ins caused by common currency). Each state is mostly looking after its own interests when there are big issues (war) at EU periphery. ... Do I need to go on? Fleeing USA for EU is like jumping a flaming ship for a ship that is half-sunk.

My 2 cents.

It did happen with Vietnam draft evaders. There is an entire generation of former Americans born in Australia and Canada: like Mel Gibson and Stewart Butterfield of Flickr/Slack.

Also with those fleeing communism as refugees or asylum seekers - i'm born to one of those.

I don't doubt that some people will move, but it won't be to the extent of previous migrations. You have a better chance of changing and fixing the USA from the inside.

And somehow I have little sympathy for people who want to leave the US for political reasons but have a problem with countries where wealth is distributed more evenly.

If you're a software engineer working in Canada, you can get a 50% pay bump just by crossing the border.

My recommendation is get a remote job for a smaller company that will pay you in US dollars. After converting to Canadian dollars you'll be about 30% ahead of your Canadian peers but without having to pay Silicon Valley living costs or immigrate into a country crazy enough to elect Trump. If you can live away from Vancouver and Toronto you can really make that stretch.

There are three major things that hinder Canadian startups:

- Small internal market

- Less risk-taking atmosphere and attitude

- Lack of money (see point above)

If you're a startup founder and moving its these three points that'll impact you the most. If you're an employee, the significant salary disparity and the number of employment opportunities will be the biggest factor at play.

That all said, I loved staying in Toronto, and I met and worked with exceptionally strong engineers there; it's my plan to move back. YMMV depending on the company you join, and one (sad) issue is that the job pool is thinner - so jumping from one great startup to another is dramatically harder than SF.

I could never move there because the Taco Bell's come with french fries in their combo meals. Nothing I encountered shocked my cultural sensibilities more.

Canada is not about to be run by a bullying sex pest and his running mate, the man who thinks the way to cure gay people is electroshock therapy. There is literally no comparison. Refugees do not care about whether they could earn more.

I traveled around Europe and South America for five months recently (digital nomad)... The common question was "...why do you think the US has the technology and opportunities that it does...". My honest answer... Less regulation and an attitude of do what it takes to be successful in the early days. The hustle.

You know that most people don't care about earning SV salary right?

To paraphrase: A society with less internal division seems appealing until you realise is has redistributive taxes that give people the chance to say no to explotative wages.

I would say that the US is pretty much unique in this respect, and you would experience the same tradeoffs in most (all ?) of Western countries outside of it.

Even in countries where gross salaries are comparable, you would pay a ton more taxes.

Personally is a tradeoff I'm willing to make, as I believe what is sacrificed in financial terms is returned as increased social peace, but of course it's a matter of preference.

That's very true. Not for any political reasons, but I've always wanted to work in the EU (I lived there several times but was working) but everytime I look at salaries in Berlin or the NL or similar, it occurs to me that'd it be a better idea to just work here and save for a few more years, and then go there without the need to get a job.

I'd break even financially and would have more time to learn the language (though I suppose working in a foreign office would be a great way to learn the language, at least once the basics are obtained).

The situation for devs in Canada is so much worse than in an American tech hub. It's actually pretty ridiculous. Everyone I know in Canada is intent on eventually relocating to NYC/SF/Seattle/LA because the jump in QOL is so huge.

If one believes that parts of the global economy, especially the US and UK ones, are going to tank, does it even matter?

Life is not all about money, if it was, most people on this site who live in US will be heading to Silicon Valley.

Notably, the Canadians in my various social media feeds were not talking about moving back.

Canada seems appealing to Americans until they show up and realize other than healthcare, it's pretty much exactly the same place.

Want it to be like redneck country? Go to Alberta. Want to be like the West coast? Vancouver. Like New York, try New York lite, though Canada calls it Toronto.

The following things changed for me going from Canada to the US, there are more American Flags.

> I find leaving your country only because you didn't vote for the winner is rather cowardly

I have some fairly close friends who are Muslim, Latino, and LGBT. Trump has been quite nasty towards the first two groups, and his running mate (likely to be one of the most powerful VPs in US history) makes no secret of opposing the rights of the latter group. This morning I'm hearing all of them express legitimate fear for their future. I'm not saying that running to Canada is the answer for them or anyone else, but this is not your typical "generic Republican vs generic Democrat, boo-hoo my side lost" post-election complaining.

This.

And somewhat ironically, if Hillary had won people would be telling those disenfranchised voters who broke for Trump to listen to the will of the people. That it was time to man/woman up. But because they lost they now feel like they lost all.

That feeling is what drove Trump voters --they have lost their way of life. The one where one didn't have to have a graduate degree to have a stable and dependable income --but these people don't have them means to "run to Canada (or Mexico)".

And Bernie warned the Hillary campaign of this but she thought she had white women in the bag as well as thinking Hispanics voting democratic would pull it out for her.

> having just aquired my canadian permanent residence after years and lots of money

Slightly off topic:

I've been through the process as well and accept the frustrations but I didn't not think the costs were unreasonable. I only had to pay CIC application fees. How was the process harrowing for you? Not defending the frustration, just curious I guess.

I wouldn't worry about it. Threatening to move to Canada after a political loss is a time-honored American tradition, and not one which produces much in the way of concrete results.

Assuming it's not crashed by the minorities who are likely to feel the brunt of the policy changes... I'm having a lot of very sober conversations with my immigrant friends.

Please keep in mind that many people currently living in the US may feel that they are in "very real danger", or may be soon.

We're not taking this lightly. I'm not "disgruntled", I'm concerned that my friends and family may face persecution, disenfranchisement, or even death (eg; nuclear war).

You may think that's unlikely, but please respect that it would be reasonable to estimate a nontrivial risk of catastrophe in the US.

Congratulations on your residence status.

They're not leaving the country. Their country left them.

> - I find leaving your country only because you didn't vote for the winner is rather cowardly, you can still do something about it, we're not quite talking systemic harassment yet...

Leaving your entire life, job, family behind for principals is cowardly?

What rubbish. It's amazingly brave.

This is on par with calling suicide bombers cowardly.

To be quite frank cowardice is doing nothing and calling others cowards.

Comparable to where? Not the Bay Area. I interviewed for a remote position with a Canadian company a while back, and they weren't able to pay me anywhere near a market rate Bay Area salary.

Cool, how welcoming are they to non Western immigrants? And also recent graduates?

What's the average tech salary for a 5 years+ experienced programmer (ruby, golang, etc)?

I'm Canadian. Dev pay is not comparable unless your margin of error is literally tens of thousands of dollars.

Sure. Budweiser is $50/case and gas is $4/gal. How's health care free again?

Also : immigrating to Canada is time-consuming and exhausting (typically 1 year and lots of paper work) but going to Canada with a work visa is quick and painless. Most of the time, startups are taking care of the paperwork and can even help of the relocation. And if you really like the place, after a few months, you can then apply for immigration.

I'm a lifelong Californian hockey player. This sounds nice! The winters would be tough, though.

Busbud (busbud.com) is as well.

but a crazy provincial government and high taxes.

But no bikeshare in the winter :(

I moved to Toronto from the UK, received a solid 25% increase in salary and cut my rent expenditure in half.

Houses are expensive here but still cheaper than London or SF.

Canada isn't all doom and gloom.

The "dutch disease" went away with falling oil prices. I agree that the housing markets in Vancouver and Toronto are nuts, but until today it looked like they were cooling down.

Unfortunately, we might see another spike in foreign investment in Canadian housing thanks to this election...

Rent in Toronto is way, way cheaper than in San Francisco.

Real estate is much more reasonable in Montreal or in Calgary. And there are startups hiring also in those cities

Could you expand on the reasons why you'd be a fool to stay? Thanks.

What would have happened if Rob Ford had been elected PM?

That depends on what you compare it to. Plenty of first world countries are ahead of the US in many important aspects. But if you're setting the bar on the level of Russia or some third world countries, then yeah, it's pretty great.

Yeah, it's pretty good.

Will Trump keep it that way?

Those same people that would die trying to make it into the US are now going to be turned away if they do make it. The America that prides itself being a destination of salvation for immigrants is not the America that Trump wants to create.

It is. It won't be next year.

My original plan was to move and telecommute, but that's kind of fucked because the dollar is crashing.

As someone from a country which strongly depends on NATO (Lithuania, former Soviet state, shared border with heavily militarized Russian territory Kaliningrad), you are spot on.

Do you think Twitter/FB commenters are dead serious about moving? To me it is at same level as today's lunch photos: just grab attention and likes by whatever means.

> would you rather live in the U.S. or in one of its allied countries?

I guess it depends on whether you're a minority or not, doesn't it?

Democratic voters always say something similar to some degree when a republican president (and only president) gets voted in.

One of the things that could make this the most important presidential election in history is that there could be an unprecendented number of Supreme Court nominations in the next 4-8 years. That, to me, is what makes this such an important election since the SC has, in my opinion, been stepping beyond its power in the last 10 years so the utility of nomination becomes even more important.

Other than that, you're right, House and Senate control is far more important. But don't underestimate these god-awful presidential signing statements that have become so popular. Appointed cabinet positions can make quite a difference depending on the domain. There are other ways to side-step the separation of powers.

This is breathtakingly naive. The man has coasted to power on a wave of vicious prejudice. Go back and look at the highlights of the GOP convention to get an idea of how he intends to govern.

Republicans won the House and Senate too, and he gets to appoint probably 3 justices to the Supreme Court.

So it'll be a more unified government than you've seen in a long time, which makes Trump able to get a lot of his platform through.

It's a great time to live in America.

Not any more. Bush and Obama really pushed the boundaries of what's possible with executive actions. He's also going to have the most invasive surveillance state in human history at his fingertips, and he's surrounded himself with people who love to settle scores.

Maybe not Americans, but Mexicans, since the visa requirements are expected to be lifted[1].

[1] http://www.pm.gc.ca/eng/news/2016/06/28/canada-lift-visa-req...

As it stands now, I doubt that many American programmers would be willing to take the pay cut they'd have to accept if they came to work here.

I like it here, and I'm happy with what I make, but when you factor in the exchange rate, a typical US developer would take a huge salary haircut working here; probably 40-50%.

Software professionals might get to Canada, see the smaller paycheck and run back home!

How long does it take for paper work to be completed? 1-2 years? And than what? Trump will almost certainly mess up enough (which Dem have warned about) to be out of office after just 1 term. And will they go through the paper work to return to US?

The same website handles actual processing of citizenship and permanent residency applications, such as form submissions, qualification questions, and so on. It runs a very light client so all of the validation is server-side. Far cry from "mostly static".

Like affordable healthcare .gov?

Well, clearly the country can benefit from American talent.

It's annoying and maybe a little invasive, but it's not impossible. The FBAR takes about 10 minutes to fill out and submit, and the bank may want a few extra forms if you earn a lot of interest.

Taxes are annoying, but between treaties and the foreign income exclusion or credit, you probably won't be double-taxed.

Hi grizzles, as a european currently vliving in Austria I am quite interested in relcoating to Australia for the weather and the people but I'm not sure how the tech scene is over there for EE jobs like Embedded Software/Firmware Engineer. I had a quick look on indeed but I wasn't very lucky.

You may want to come check out Toronto before moving here. A great event to see what the City's tech scene is like is HackerNest. It's once a month. You could probably also line up some interviews for your trip.

Research TN-1 visas. No labour market assessment required. Need to have a degree or other significant experience though.

Montreal's housing is comically affordable compared to most cities on the east and west coasts.

An exception is Waterloo.

Well, some of them will be, but not by choice.

I'm moving to Mexico in a few months :)

Agreed. It's still funny though.

Despite the caring face that most startups put up they all have to make money to survive. Only when they grow really big can they even think of pursuing social goals and even then they will have opposition from the shareholders.

In 20 years Ottawa will be sub tropical thanks to global warming ;)

Because, frankly? A country that is down with electing somebody who overtly panders to white supremacists is not a country I really want to be in. A country that elects somebody who thinks electrocuting teenagers to cure homosexuality is not a country I really want to be in. I don't need to see what they will do to know what they have done.

I don't intend to move stupidly, and I don't intend to unless I can better my situation--but I wasn't even considering it yesterday, and I am now.

What is it like for an American making the move? What were the best and worst parts?

If it happens once every 8 years I can understand that the wouldn't care much. Do you expect them to employ expensive services that would cost them a lot of money to stop that just for one day? It's government, they just live with it.

We already voted in our version of Trump, so we probably won't let you in.

> No one mentioned Tel-Aviv

People that fear Trumpist racism are very much the same people that understand Israel as a racist country.

It's pretty clear what you are insinuating, but Canada is more culturally similar to the US, and not Mexico. Also not to forget I have to learn Spanish.

Hindsight.