I don't mean to be one of those people that shout "privilege" at every turn on the Internet, but most people with no savings and barely any income would be freaking out unless they had some family or support network to lean on, which I noticed any discussion of is suspiciously absent.
Presumably he now needs to either get a job asap or make some hard choices. But it sounds like the post is supposed to be a retrospective so its not surprising he isn't really talking about the future.
> I don't mean to be one of those people that shout "privilege
He literally had enough money to blow $80,000 on 2 years of unemployment. Of course he is privleged. Most people in the computer industry are. Most posters to hn are. The average person lives paycheque to paycheque and certainly doesn't have 80k just lying around in their bank account.
No, my specific point is that he does not sound like he needs to make hard choices, and he is alluding to continuing working on his own projects in the future. He writes:
> I made resolutions: to make $1M in revenue in 2025. Well, that's not really happening… But rest assured, I do everything possible to reach that goal rather sooner than later.
and
> blymp is the only one generating money — about $600/month — and the one I plan to continue next year. Yay!
and finishes with
> Here's to a promising year 2025. My third year without a job. A year when I give more than I receive. A year of patience. And a year of an even deeper connection with myself. Cheers!
And sure, people that make a high income job are privileged, but I was using it in the sense that you frequently see it used online, specifically that he has a backup pool of money/support somewhere, most likely family, that he conspicuously leaves out of his post.
He does talk about the future and seems to imply he’ll continue to not have a job.
If that’s the case, I’m with GP in wondering how he’s going to make it past January.
And the third world.
In Western Europe? Not so much. I mean, yes, there are poor people, but the middle class mostly doesn't live paycheck to paycheck.
That's the quickest path to $1M. Software developers are too caught up on salary (or 73 different "income streams" that all make $0), and rarely think about building a valuable business.
I was recently working six days a week with a nearly-empty fridge. My coworkers were scraping by. I have two jobs now. Due to a car repair, money is tight through December but we have food (and the car). Working 12 hours a day does cut into time I might build skills for a better job. Still progressing, though.
My coworkers and I at each job can’t usually take even a week off unless it was a paid vacation. A year or two? That’s like a dream goal for us.
Whereas, it’s terrible he had a divorce and lost everything. I’ve prayed that Jesus Christ bless he and his former partner with mutual forgiveness and new lives with peace. I thank Christ that He gave much joy in financial or other circumstances that would cause depression in most people. He is our Rock.
Also with the cost of living shooting up so much - C$80k of today is probably as much as $50-60k of 2019.
But he’s not. He’s specifically spelling it out by saying his gut and stomach issues are very likely tied to the stress of his no stable income.
I'm a contractor and last year my agency said there would be layoffs, which caused quite a scare, but in the end only contractors residing in Canada were affected.
You might want to reach out to your mortgage provider and see if they can help. Often they will.
Where in Canada are you?
Sell your house. You can't afford it.
I believe what this guy is referring to is that his startups currently aren't making money. And, to that end, this blog post is a marketing piece.
Sure, some landlords are large real estate companies, but all you're doing is forcing out small landlords and ensuring that large companies own all of the rental properties.
(Like all regulation, it is at a fundamental level pro-monopolistic, favoring large companies that can handle the overhead of complying with the regulation and punishing small players who cannot.)
I understand the sentiment but I don’t understand why point it out. It’s not like the blog post in question is putting anyone down, complaining about anything, or being obnoxious.
There will always be someone more privileged than you are. Why constantly remind yourself (and others) about it if the more privileged person isn’t harming anyone?
I don't judge him at all for being privileged or what he's done. I judge him for leaving out what I think is the most important part of the story: how he could go on this journey and come to a point where he's got no money left but he isn't freaking out about being homeless or getting food.
$80k can easily last you 4+ years of very comfortable living in much of the world. Enjoy the food, really try and learn some of the local language, and enjoy yourself.
You can do it, and there won't be another window.
"I need a 3 bedroom apartment with a full kitchen in the village center, with at least parking for one car, I have a budget of $300/mo".
"Here's at least three options"
It also bring up a kind of discomfort between us, as tech workers, and regular people. The quantity of money we can earn, even at the lower end in the U.S., is unfathomable. It makes us want to go places and spend somewhat frivolously to support local businesses.
We were recently in Portugal. There's a ton of trendy food spots with prices near what we'd pay in HCOL U.S., but there's a ton of really local, mom 'n pop places, with absolutely incredibly prices, and they're incredibly appreciative of your business.
One place we frequented was maybe a 30 second walk from a very trendy tourist district, but served local food at very local prices. Ubers were lined up to drop people to go overpay for mediocre food in the district, literally on the street next to where we were eating. If they would have just taken a moment, they could have come and had a great relaxed meal and support some locals for almost next to nothing.
I hear that - last time I was in Lisbon I got breakfast in one of those kind of places and had to ask the cashier if they made a mistake with the change and had given me back too much. Like literally, they could have charged double I would have accepted it as a fair price for a nice meal.
Yep, I was in Portugal back in June and was blown away by how nice it was. City life, the beach towns and overall prices of things. That was my first time going to the EU from the US.
I was on vacation so I ate out every day for all meals but I don't think I paid more than $5 for breakfasts and most sit down dinners were $12-15 all-in. I splurged one night in Lisbon and had the craziest plate of sushi I've ever seen and it was $18. That was from a 4.9 rated sushi bar with ~800 reviews.
My total food bill for 14 days of solo traveling was ~$475 and I wasn't purposely trying to budget. That includes randomly trying a lot of things that I normally wouldn't do like getting a fresh smoothie while walking around because why not. That food bill also includes 3 days in south western Spain because I moved around to a few cities (Seville, Spain -> Lagos, Portugal -> Lisbon, Portugal was the loop I took with day trips to a couple of places).
They flew her back to the US, where she’s from, to do filming there and have us friends come by to throw frisbees and talk about how much they’ll miss her. It was weird.
The fact that I can buy a house in Thailand for something insanely cheap also means that I can make sure that the local school has whatever they need, for basically just a haircut.
You can take the local orphanage and make sure hundreds of kids are comfortable for hundreds of USD a month.
Obviously the OP has no children (and my brothers' kids are grown up) - if you have kids this changes the equation completely (though if they're very young then it can still work).
It was not good.
I cannot stress enough how bad of an idea this is unless your children are under 3. Children need structure and permanency. They need friends, not just acquaintances. My cousin did everything else right, but his kids still have issues with relationships because 5 of their very formative years were spent without actual friends. It's really sad to think about.
For him, it was a wildly selfish move that negatively impacted his children. Don't be that guy.
BAcK iN mY dAy a room in a house would cost $400-$500/mo in most places in the Montreal-Waterloo corridor. Now runways have basically been halved (0.3x'd?) as an extra allowance to the landed gentry.
One of the biggest beneficiaries of the recent tech boom happen to be the owners of land and buildings in and around the cities that tech companies prefer to be around.
Also a strong argument for remote-first companies.
Beautiful space, clear view of Mont Royal, right off the park, ideal location (IMO) in the plateau.
Granted, this was around 15 years ago -- I shudder to think what the now-likely Airbnb units in that building go for these days, probably $400/night.
I did that (sold everything, and went traveling), and now I own very little stuff. Apart from the mandatory laptop I need for work, and clothes, I couldn’t care less about everything else.
Before selling everything, I had a sick setup of dual monitors, and external DAC, speakers, headphones, keyboards, etc. Today, I need only laptop. I was considering getting one monitor, but can’t seem to justify the need.
It really teaches you how little material crap you need.
The bulk of what people own are things like furniture, artworks, plants, appliances, cookware… etc. Not particularly sexy, but essential for making a cozy place to live in the world.
I eventually emptied it but I made the mistake is discarding books and trinkets that were actually memorabilia. I didn't interact with the trinkets or pull the books off the shelves. I didn't realize that just seeing them would trigger memories of where I bought them, who I was with, what I was into then, what songs were popular then, etc... so I regret getting rid of that stuff. But that was probably no more than 10 "book boxes" of stuff
So yeah, the rent on the unit might be more than your crap is worth, but having it all back in a blink (essentially) when moving back someplace has some intangible value too.
In the past months, my situation has gotten worse as I needed to tighten my belt due to my saving having almost completely melted. Hard but enriching times, I have now found a job after months of searching. The market in Europe isn't great these days. Back to hustling but without any regrets.
100% agree with OP, it was the experience of a lifetime for me. If I can give some additional advice, plan your finances. Even if you think a large sum will last you years and you're a bit lazy to plan it (as I was), don't be conservative with your forecast, plan large. Personally if I had to do it again, I'd try to keep half or one third aside for unexpected cases.
Also, I'm 42 and retired :) It's really easy to retire here when making software money.
Back in the day, I had saved enough to take a nice 3 month leave of absence from work to do some travelling. Nudging my spreadsheet around, I tried replacing my rent, utilities etc. with the cost of a storage locker, and suddenly my “how long can I go for “ number shot up to over a year.
It changed my whole approach to life in my 30s, and it was a good 15 years before I committed to living in a single place long term again.
God it must be nice to be in a position where you can afford to just be like “ok my partner and I are just going to travel for four years, and after that, idk, things will work out somehow.”
At the time the job was so boring, going nowhere, pretty easy.. I would do anything to go back in time to that role tbh..
I loved every second of traveling, and met some cool people, but none of that helps me find work now.
If you're a shy introvert, and struggle with social situations.. and you currently have a job, I'd advise to keep the job, even if it's not great, and try get something else lined up before leaving.
I have so many mental issues now (low self esteem etc)... therapy would probably help, but now I have no money sooo... I'm stuck in a loop of unemployable, no help due to no money, no money due to no work etc.
.. don't be me
At least have a plan first and make sure you understand visas. I have fiends who sold up everything and moved to Switzerland only to be turned back at the airport because they didn’t know they couldn’t just move their life there unemployed
I've heard some terrible things about how vulnerable those are to theft / squatters.
In my state the health insurance marketplace only has 'bronze' plans that are in-network only (with mediocre options) and high deductibles, it costs 6-800 for individual and close to 1500-2k for a family.
The United States has rigged the employment market to forever keep you dependent on a corporate employer until retirement. Now these same companies are taking away remote work, forcing people close to expensive and increasingly annoying cities like New York City, where the median one bedroom is one million to buy.
So, for giving your time to a company, your reward is never being able to be fully independent without huge risk. Healthcare is the Company Store Voucher of the modern era.
Has anyone else considered leaving the United States long before retirement age?
Last time I went to the ER, the wait was 10h for kidney stones. Thankfully I passed out for 4h in the waiting room from the pain and the stones passed by the time I saw a doctor, so all they did was send me home.
My family doctor died 10 years ago and I'm still on a list.
I remember contrasting that with my US experience at the same time, where a 10 minute consult with a doctor cost 600USD. I had a really obvious ear infection, just needed some antibiotics, but he must have seen me as a cash-cow and ordered a ton of unrelated blood tests that were pointless since I was flying out the next day. I walked away feeling like I'd been scammed.
(In Australia a doctor's visit is under 30USD, blood tests don't cost much either)
Of course, as with most things, government in South Africa is basically jealous of private medical insurance here and is trying to destroy it because public healthcare is a failure here. We really need to add a third item to this list: Nothing in life is certain, except for death, taxes and the government fucking up everything it touches.
Sometimes there are information gaps between their capacity and the provincial bureaucracy.
Platforms like Gusto, etc. make it so even small businesses can offer benefits and insurance like bigger companies do.
I went though various big and small employers plans, several states' exchanges, and none were nearly as good as doing the legwork to get benefits setup for my own company. Now I choose.
Is Gusto for stuff like that? Single member LLCs?
One step further, being your own doctor when ever possible is even better. Bring out the rusty knife for surgery, a club for anesthesia etc. most surgeries are not rocket science.
Makes me curious how much marketplace costs vary per state?
In any case, as another person pointed out, the ACA plans also provide very high premium credits for low income households, covering up to ~80% of the costs (from what I've seen). But this also varies by state, I think.
Yes. I'm American but was born in a small country in Eastern Europe. I was planning on moving back during the pandemic, however I was presented with some job prospects I couldn't reject and my move was delayed. But I do plan on retiring in my hometown within two years. There is universal healthcare which sucks for the most part, but private insurance is extremely cheap (compared to the US) and I could retire more than comfortably with my current nw. And by 'retire' I don't mean stop working, I mean I'm going to work on whatever I want.
And to your original point about healthcare, it is the absolute single reason for why I did not take any sabbaticals or long term leave even while burned out, for my insomnia during layoff seasons and generally for my job related stress.
I decided to learn from their experiences and GTFO while I could. I miss my family and friends dearly, but it’s a massive relief (and privilege) to be able to get the care I need and not worry about whether the cost is going to bankrupt me.
Also, for those who require plans similar to the one previously provided, COBRA (18 months) is decent -- expensive but presumably less expensive than "equivalent" in the marketplace if we're talking about a good corporate plan.
A lot of people would be better off doing "intra-preneurship", meaning trying to innovate and strategize within their current company to make the job more fun, gain more autonomy, and advance their career prospects.
Whereas working for a big company, you have a fairly reliable shot at bringing in a decent income with some stability.
Nothing is guaranteed of course.
Also feels like chasing a lottery win. Some folks might be chasing a financial safety net first that is smaller, because the variables and formula of everyone's life in what they have to take care of is valid.
I'm very happy for people who are able to swing for the fences, and also happy for the people working on getting more hits to bigger hits to swing for the fench. I know the latter is a much more sure way to get an outcome to have time freedom to really swing fences.
Everyone does what they best can do, if there's not an option in front of them at work, some people have to try to create the option themselves if it's not geographically accessible.
Assuming that's in an environment where it's possible (no shitty office politics, etc), the monetary returns from that ain't gonna be competing to a succesful project. Nor is the freedom and satisfaction ever going to be the same. And of course all progress in that front, is a round of layoffs or a change in management away from being nulled.
So, it's a safer path (as much as being an employee is safe these days), but not achieving the same thing.
Also, within companies, you need everyone’s unanimous permission to do anything.. if a problem is big enough, the team would do it themselves. If the problem is too small, the team won’t integrate.
First startup went nowhere and took on a contract role after 9 months. Then tried another startup with a co-founder I met at one of the startups where I worked in the interim. About 6 months building something awesome, but no commercial path. Spent 1 month with him and another co-founder on a fintech product but realized much faster that once again that there was no viable go-to-market strategy. Started another company and built a product that seemed like it had legs. We had one early user that absolutely loved the product and we thought all we needed was to find more users like her. Turns out that she was a false signal because we never found another user like her and I'm about to shut that one down after almost a year to avoid DE franchise fee next year.
If anyone is in a situation like this/thinking about doing something like this, I've gathered some of my lessons learned: https://chrlschn.dev/blog/2024/12/lessons-learned-from-worki...
If I had to sum it up: always build the minimal thing that can be "sold". Use AI to build the dirtiest MVP as fast as possible. Even better if your "MVP" is a deck and you can get people to put money down to wait. Figure out your GTM and messaging with that deck. If you are an engineer, you must resist that urge to build until you're sure you can find enough people that have this problem and want to pay you to solve it. Don't work with a non-technical co-founder if they claim if you build it, customers will come. Don't work with a non-technical co-founder that can't demonstrate an ability to sell. If the vibes feel off, get out fast. Don't form a company with a co-founder until you absolutely have to (like your personal life, don't get married until you're absolutely sure).
Lots of mistakes and lessons learned during that time having founded startups that went nowhere, been an employee in startups that went nowhere, and left startups that are actually crushing it. I have seen a big swath of the gamut at this point with some regrets in retrospect.
Having learned many of the same lessons as you I can 100% backup everything you said in your “sum it up” paragraph!
The only caveat I would add is to the “make an MVP with AI”. I think MVPs generated directly out of ChatGPT/Claude are so easy now (or at least it can appear so on the face of it) that many people are just barely going beyond that - but to any experienced eye, that approach is quite transparent and can look very low-value (even if the idea is actually a good one).
Now if that person is a skilled salesperson then that might work.
But, for most people, I think it’s still very important to demonstrate good instincts, taste and strategic/commercial understanding when building such an MVP. And that means editing and shaping the output just enough to meet your vision for the product. So to agree with you - definitely, 100%, use AI as much as possible - but don’t assume that you can put zero work in on top and have that MVP be effective. Because the 10 year old down the street has the exact same tool as you - so if you are just relying verbatim on that tool’s output- it’s going to be hard to stand out.
I’d still definitely agree to spend as little time as physically possible on the MVP - with the above caveat.
Having said all that… a lot of historical wisdom on the topic of MVPs has been turned upside down since gen AI became mainstream, so on the flip side you could argue: create 1000 MVPs in an hour, publish them all, see what generates interest…*
Hmm.. I think I just argued against my own point.
* (I’m not really seriously suggesting anyone do this, but I’m also not entirely discounting this as an approach either…)
> Both your current projects look extremely impressive and polished. And viable!
> Now if that person is a skilled salesperson then that might work
I had a non-technical friend recently spin up a full blown startup with customers using nothing but Claude + Replit (not plugging, but just sharing to show that it's real: https://bullship.co). He came up with the idea after talking to a friend and finding that indeed, the market had only two major competitors who both charged too much for many smaller customers.
The code is throwaway in my book, but it's enough to validate the idea by actually getting people to pay for something they can use. It won't scale, but that's fine; by the point that he needs it to scale, he'll be able to hire people with more skill to fix or rebuild it.
Build only after customers have thrown money at you.
As it’s at that point you have enough clarity and specificity to build.
This advice is better if you have 10k twitter followers. For example I'm building something cool, a no-code visual regression tool. I don't have any real network. Besides cold outreach (and hn, ph), what else is there? Would love to know what you recommend.
I misread “personal wife” (in Kripky’s voice from big bang theory) and after I was done chuckling, I started thinking of something funny to comment about the other types of wives there are… then reread your comment and… yeah.
So yeah, in many ways, it is just like a marriage when you formally create a company with a co-founder. Don't do it unless you need to and if you do, make sure that you can get your assets back if you are bringing existing assets to the table.
I’ve slowly spent all my savings, moved back in with my folks, and still don’t have a job. It’s rough. I have no idea what I wanna do in life. So I decided to join the navy recently, to give me the next 4 years to figure it out.
If yes, you just might be depressed or haven't realized that a job might be shit anyway.
If no, interesting though that you are aware of hn (i have to assume a certain interest because i know plenty of software people avg ones, not being aware of hn at all).
But hf at the navy.
I was in the army before uni - it was grueling but awesome. You'll find your way fren
I had contract work, then couldn't get a tech job a couple years ago after a lot of applications. Completely broke. Drove down the road and felt kinda foolish seeing people paying less but decent money for non-tech. got fast food / hospitality worker. Low stress, physical work. Can't imagine where I'd be if I didn't.
I kind of get it though, you start doing something else then you don't have much time and energy to improve on what you want to do (such as tech) for a while, a recipe for people to get trapped, unless you can save money and reclaim time somehow to improve, or the supply/demand shifts..
anyone could fail at anything, all I know for certain is the worst thing a person can do is nothing.
If I was unemployed my living costs would be far, far below average, even allowing for the "it's expensive being poor" factors. Even when I've been in low pay jobs I've lived on very little and definitely didn't feel like I had budget for "travel" or other non-essentials.
As an employable person without work, before I reached negative bank balance I'm pretty certain I would have found a crappy job to at least slow the decline and buy more time. I can't see from this story why that hasn't been deemed necessary here.
The average person has a job and income. What's the average for a person taking extended time off?
Signed, someone who only feels "normal" while sticking to a restrictive diet... and therefore is seeing their gastro next week to discuss switching to a different Crohn's treatment :P
You can attempt to fix it by taking NAC which is an amino acid with no side effects for $20 a month or so. Usually you don’t need to take it continuously, just in regressions.
It is frequently misdiagnosed as the other more serious/intractable things you’ve mentioned.
Which is all to say... there are so many ways your gut can make you miserable, and they rarely get better on their own. Absolutely worth checking out if you can.
In some parts of the internet, Vitamin A is theorized to not be a vitamin but a poison.
Auto-immunity is likely related to biofilms in the intestines and plant defense chemicals such as lectins in combination with leaky gut.
Try looking @ cabbage juice for your Crohn's. There are YT videos about it.
It's surprising this is not more widely recognized. The majority of corporations need help configuring existing software, not developing and marketing novel software. Those new opportunities come and go. If you want stability, get a job in IT.
I didn't make that much (but also don't live in the US). For some time I was living on about 5% of my income and saving the remaining 95%.
There is your answer. The cities where you can make 400-500k are at least 2x the cost of other US cities.
Any estimate on the value creation from building that home vs the $50k consumed?
This sounds great. My question is why should I have to work and pay for you to do what you want all day?
I do prefer living in industrialized society to subsistence farming and slavery, personally, so maybe let's try to keep the incentives in place and NOT copy the Soviets, yeah?
And implying that there's a way we're "meant" to live implies we were created by a conscious being with intent, and I think you'll find that's a controversial view
There’s a lot of different ways to live. Personally I like taking periods of voluntary unemployment to explore other interests. Finding a job after has never been a problem.
A large percentage of the population has at least some safety net. Probably the average 25 year old could move back in with their parents for a year if things got really bad.
Since coming to CS my highs have been higher and my lows lower than in other disciplines. And I came late. I started grad school in my thirties. But something that I learned when I was young, from well before my time in CS is true in this discipline too: if you do good work, people eventually notice. There will be a snowball effect.
It’s true, it doesn’t work out for everyone. But nothing does. And if you don’t take the opportunity to do something difficult, you’ll never know if you could have done it. I personally could not live with that thought. Those who do not try cannot succeed. But those who try—and retry when things don’t work out—probably will not fail either.
There are roughly 1.5 million software developers alone in the United States. If you love computer science you will excel in this industry for many years after you graduate. Quit only if your heart is not in it, the worst people I've worked with in my 27 year career are ones who obviously went with this career only because it can be a decent way to make a living.
But worry not, if you are end up loving what you do you'll be great at what you do and people that are great at what they do will always be wanted.
The reason is, there are some skills which are highly in demand, and few people are strong in those skills. In particular, I am thinking of HPC engineering and cloud computing infrastructure engineering. Companies and institutions own large server fleets, we're talking hundreds or thousands of servers. They want whatever is running on those fleets to have high performance, security, and zero downtime.
This kind of work requires strong Linux systems administration and programming skills, an understanding of enterprise networking and storage technologies, confidence with at least one orchestration stack such as OpenStack or Kubernetes, and strong CI/CD and IaC skills (look up GitOps.) As a junior, you don't need to tick all these boxes, but people should be able to see that you're able to learn whatever you're missing.
These skills don't usually come directly from a computer science degree. However, a computer science degree is the primary way to get your foot in the door with building those skills. If you want a junior job in cloud computing and are cold-calling because you don't know anyone yet, then it will help if you have good marks in a computer science degree (although it's possible to prove your chops in other ways, like having a history of strong contributions to open source.)
Later, after you build some experience, and you prove that you can keep learning, you get the job done, and you can get along with people, you'll eventually have recruiters chasing after you, and companies willing to listen to whatever income you pitch to them.
1) DO NOT GIVE UP 2) You don't need every skill the employer is asking for. What you need are the major skills the job requires and the ability to pickup the rest on the job. 3) Only apply for jobs where you are a good fit. 4) While job hunting, spend time each day learning a new skill. It can be a programming language, a technology, or something interesting. 5) Once you get a job, save lots of money. It helps you make it through lean times and sets you up for a nice retirement.
One last thing. If your depression does not let up after 6 months, I strongly recommend seeing a therapist and a psychiatrist. I wish you luck. Things will get better.
The (tech) job market is definitely not great at the moment, but I do think people are overstressing how bad it is a bit, and in any case these things are cyclical. I started a CS degree in 2003, just after the dot-com crash, and finished in 2007, just heading into the financial crisis. Both of those kind of cratered the job market for a bit, but it recovered.
If you are skilled, can talk to people and aren't afraid to put in the yards to prepare for interviews you'll do just fine.
You hone that skill, and it will shape your future, whatever field.
You'll never be jobless having that particular skill.
Don't give up.
Still, you have to do what is right for you. The downturn might end tomorrow. It might take a decade. Nobody knows.
I intentionally left to work on projects I wanted to pursue, built a startup that isn't currently covering costs (1 customer on an annual plan), lived in Thailand for 6 months (with kids going to to school there), the burn rate on return has taken it's toll (California)...but yeah recently put feelers out for potential work and see it's going to be quite the mission to find work (personally).
its money
It's absolutely wild to see people 1. with the privilege of having $80K in liquid savings to just... chill while unemployed, and 2. with the willingness and mindset that allows them to do that chilling without freaking out. Total Zen Masters you all are. I couldn't do it.
Every $10K I blew through while unemployed, I'd be thinking to myself: Accounting for time value of money, that's just pushed out my retirement date by 3 more months.
EDIT: I guess I should add that I'm married with a kid, since that obviously does affect the math on this one. Still, I don't think I'd change my opinion if I was single.
Nobody I know is leaving a $70k a year job to take a sabbatical. They're usually leaving a $400k+ per year job and there'll be another similar job waiting for them when they're ready to jump back in.
Kids are another huge factor that changes this. I don't think I've known anyone who's done something like this with kids in the picture.
What they don't tell you is that employers are suspicious if you are out of the job market for more than a year. And anyways, no, it doesn't make sense to stay at home and raise your kid, just pay for the childcare and get back to work as soon as possible. And they wonder why birthrate is tanking...
Will there be though? I honestly don't know. I'm closer to that boat, I get (good) job offers every 3-6 months, but nonetheless, if I was laid off... I think that'll leave a pretty nasty mark on my resume, no matter the reason. I don't think I'd wait a year to start looking for jobs again. A big gap won't help either.
* Recruitment emails from top competitors I should say.
I took my first sabbatical at 25, with only a few years in the industry, making a lot less and I think $35k in the bank. Everyone told me I was crazy putting a gap in my CV, spending savings, etc. but I did anyway.
It was easily the best two years of my life, I travelled South America and Asia without a care in the world until the money was gone. Then I went back to work without an issue and have continued taking long periods off throughout my career. These days I'm a remote contractor, and even though I can and do work from anywhere I regularly still take months off at a time. I have a lot of savings too and a fully paid house in a country I love.
My point is that we create the anxiety for ourselves. A different lifestyle is possible if you make certain choices.
Kids + spouse changes everything.
My condolences to the writer because it sounds like he had a divorce, which changed one part of that equation.
Yep, I have have quit a perfectly good job to bum around Southeast Asia. Now that kids are in the picture being unemployed would be very stressful.
I did. Best decision of my career.
Same, although I'm not sure it's always a privilege thing, but also one's background. I've done pretty well for myself these last few years, and financially speaking it would not be the end of the world if I lost my job tomorrow. But I come from a working class family, and grew up with nothing.
I was raised and surrounded by family members who work a lot harder than I do for a lot less pay. They sacrificed a lot for me to go to school and get a good job, so if I were to lose it, the last thing I'd want to do is just chill for 2yrs even if I could afford to.
I was fortunate to grow up relatively (lower?) middle-class, but even then, we weren't exactly financially secure, and I still remember how bad things were during the Great Recession, even though I wasn't working at the time. My wife grew up in poverty, and even though we're both doing decently in our careers, I don't know if she'd ever truly be able to get rid of the worry and anxiety that something might happen and we'd end up homeless. Even if we suddenly won the lottery and ended up with $500 million, that fear would probably still be there at least a little bit. And like you said, that fear makes enjoying/being comfortable with unemployment impossible.
Now I have a child and feel completely different. The moment she arrived I immediately felt way behind on retirement savings and stability and since then my #1 priority has been to catch up. I'm hoping that not long from now I'll be able to translate being more secure on paper to also mentally getting back the care free feeling I had before.
I also think in terms of retirement - it's not just savings being depleted, but it's active months I'm not adding to my savings. And I'm certainly not living off of 50% of what I make post-tax, so the burn rate becomes exceptionally high.
I was feeling close to burnout a couple years ago in my current job, but was lucky enough that they let me drop back to four days a week. And the company is fully remote, so I end up traveling about three months out of the year. I have a hobby that helps me meet people when I travel.
Maybe living overseas also helps life feel less like it’s passing me by.
Ideally I’d be able to take a few month sabbatical, now that I’ve been in my current role for 8+ years. Still working on that…
So many of these "I've been funemployed for 5 years" articles NEVER talk about the hidden asterisk that, well, actually, they have plenty of money and are just fine; they're just conventionally broke.
Alternately, they have very cheap tastes. It's entirely possible to live off of 15k per year while hiking the AT, there are at least 5 equivalent trails to hike globally.
I also travelled the world, but I did it as an ESL teacher. Nothing encourages you to integrate faster into a country's culture and learn the native language than actually working there, and you feel like less of a tourist.
You account for the time value of money, but not for the time value of time.
A week right now is worth more than a week 30 years from now. 30 years from now, your life might have changed beyond all recognition, or you might be dead.
Reasonable people can disagree over how to discount future freedom-from-work vs present freedom-from-work.
That said, I'm still largely in agreement with you. While there are a myriad ways to make more money, there's no way to make more time.
I used to be in the same boat. Somewhere in my 30s I realized I could fall back on my skills if it ever warranted. Now I am between jobs and considering not going back to work.
What I’m saying is that your life outlook shifts as you age and experience common life events
Your reply is cryptic and leaves crucially important details out.
OK, I figure I don't want to work anymore. Who pays my rent / mortgage? Who pays food, bills?
But I agree. Some funds to fall back on is critical. The amount is highly dependent on your situation and risk comfort level and can be argued back and forth but not having any puts you at the mercy of whatever your employer/manager decides. Or even you getting sick and unable to work for a while. And even if the former doesn't happen, the latter definitely will at some point.
Though I am reading some of these comments and wondering why they'd call losing a job an end-of-the-world scenario. I've always thought people on this forum are the type of working professionals that could afford to put away a few hundred dollars a month even if they're not on SV wages. Mind you, I am not talking about an amount of money to allow you to retire but just enough to get you going for a few months until you can figure something out. Even if married and with children. That just changes the math a little bit but not the approach. Is there something I am missing?
I have that fund now and it completely changes how you approach work.
It's going to go away once we buy a house, but my top priority will be to restore it after the deal's done.
Good on you for paying their way through college; that will help a ton.
I would personally be extremely content living a very spartan life. If there were a barracks type arrangement where I just get a small room with desk and bathroom, and all food preparation were handled for me for a reasonable fee, access to a gym, and solid internet I'd be all over it.
But the minute you enter a romantic relationship, that generally stops being an acceptable living situation.
I have easily enough to live a whole year or more without needing to work, but I would never consider that for even 1 second, tbh. Never even thought hard about why, it's just not an option to me.
First of all your situation and context is unique. Everyone has their own circumstances (including aging parents).
For many, even perhaps for you this is a reality. However for others its a fear of worst case scenario as a protection mechanism that served you when you were at a certain stage of life and many just kept it as a habit.
For a single grad without responsibilities after 3 years of working at a FAANG this fear of the future shackles them to explore and take calculated risks.
I've seen people with $20k in their savings account going for 1 year sabbatical describing it as transformational.
Its all priorities I guess and sometimes we can't say for every case that its actually the lack of agency that is holding you back.
Only you know for sure internally when reading this, if its making you uncomfortable and uneasy and if you have an emotional reaction.
For some, as mentioned its a reality and they are fully content with the limitations that they have and choices that they made in life that are now irreversible.
Up to everyone individually to evaluate their situation, however what is important to understand is that whether its really your context that is holding you hostage or just your fear.
This would have the absolutely opposite effect of that, I was in this mood and it made getting a job impossible because I'd appear too stressed and too depressed on every single interview. Sometimes relaxing and letting it be is just better and a lot more productive.
"Delaying retirement" is absolutely an option - and not a bad one while with extremely flexible financial needs - but it's one to take eyes open.
It sounds a bit, like retirement is your only goal in life.
Personally I am not sure, if I make it to retirement (WW3 or whatever), so I try to enjoy the ride a bit more.
Also yes, I do pratice Zen meditation. But I doubt I am a master ..
If nothing else, pulling money out of investments to fund expenses due to lack of income feels like robbing myself of future gains.
That's on you. Stress is something you generated, not something that exists in the world.
stress is also created by other people who insist that i am doing something wrong, and don't respect that i have a different opinion on that matter. people who have expectations that i can't or don't want to meet.
i did learn to avoid stress, even as i live in countries where there is no safety net. i am out of work now, and while putting in applications day after day is tiring, i am not stressed. but i come from a country that has a strong safety net, and i know that if i have to i can always go back there. i grew up with that safety net, and i know that i'll never be homeless unless it's by choice. that alone removes a major stress factor. i don't know how i would feel without that safety net.
Sometimes life hits you like a truck, and you get trapped under that truck for a really long time. Then, once you get flung in the ditch and think you just had the most horrible N months/years of your life, a whole colony of fire ants starts crawling on you and pulling you apart.
So, yeah, sometimes certain actions could be a sign of privilege, sometimes, they could be the tiny thread giving a person a lifeline.
Being able to only optimize for proximity to retirement could be a more "privileged" state to be in, than having 80k in Canada in certain contexts.
That changes the equation altogether.
IDK I have the same thought.
Even with a wife and kids, all that means is that you have more household expenses. Just means you’d need more money in said emergency fund.
1. You may have zero income tomorrow. Plan for that, especially if you have a family. Tech companies pay good money, and you need to stash that money away while you have an income because there are pretty good chances that some day you'll wake up and not have a job.
2. You need to foster the professional relationships you make while doing your day job, because almost nobody is going to be working at that company until they die or retire, which means everybody is going to be looking for work. When it comes time to look for work, you will want a network to reach out to. When you find yourself in a position where you have something great and you need to hire great people to help you achieve your vision, you will want a great network to reach out to. Take time to look after the folks you care about. Pay special attention to the humans you have done great work with. Those people are probably going to be more valuable to you personally and professionally than the company you are working for, and the same goes the other way for them looking out for you.
This wisdom was later supplemented by a contractor we had hired at a different company, who came back to meet with us after we hadn't used all our paid hours and said "Look, I know you're upset that (some guy you loved working with) is no longer with us. We're also bummed about that. But we have done great work together as a combined team. Not as companies, but your engineering team and our engineering team. We hope that you will think about that when you need help with anything, at this company or in the future, just like we will think about you individuals when it comes time for us to solve problems that you would be good at solving."
Every time there is a layoff, I think about this nugget that Rex told me, and that supplemental anecdote, and every time they are just as relevant. This wisdom has saved me so much stress, and opened so many doors for me. I admit that it hasn't always let me take my unemployment completely worry free, and that I have made some desperate decisions while unemployed which I later regretted. That being said, I still think this is solid advice, not just for the tech industry, but for everybody everywhere. This is especially so if you are a humanist or are anti-bigcorp. It has helped me find peace with having to walk away from jobs when I needed time for me or my family, or when things just weren't working out. After the blood bath of 2023, I am living this advice more than ever, and the last few times I have wondered if I was on the chopping block, aside from the emotional response of visceral existential fears that come up in such cases, I've found peace in the rational knowledge that having planned for not having a job tomorrow, I can set those fears aside and look for the opportunity in my new circumstance.
American developers are staggeringly well compensated.
I was in a similar situation and I worked at a warehouse as a loader, then at a kiosk to sell toys, and then sold necklaces at a mall (none of them were my businesses, just worked.) And I worked as a mover. Many odd jobs but I never accepted being unemployed for 2 years while depleting my savings.
Whether it is a matter of being homeless or not, I can find 1000+ odd jobs that pay for something + food from Craigslist right now. This is the reason why you will rarely see an immigrant being homeless or being picky about the jobs they find. Staying unemployed for years until finding the "best job" is a very privileged mindset. 3 months in no job? Find something to float, don't wait until your dream job appears out of nowhere.
I survived with $1000 a month for a very long time (in America, the money I earned from my jobs) while paying for a room, eating + transportation. If I had 80k, I'd buy a cheap van, live in it for free, and eat the bare minimum nutrition I need ($150 a month). I can survive with 80 for over a decade easily. God knows what this person is doing with his money. I am certain he has parents that he can count on.
These posts are extremely bizarre.
Now, downvote me to hell.
It's doable for extending up to 3x of his runway.
This is because you won't get exactly 8% each year. For example, suppose the returns over a 3-year period are: 20%, -10%, 14%. In this case, the return over the whole period is 23.21% (= (1 + 0.20) * (1 - 0.10) * (1 + 0.14) - 1). On the other hand, a 8% return each year would have resulted in a 25.97% return over the whole period (= (1 + 0.08)^3 - 1).
I've seen quite a few one hit entrepreneurs lose it all chasing the next idea and never investing anything.
It was one of the best times of my life. Like the author, I focused a lot of entrepreneurship, my mental and physical health, and traveled a lot.
But unlike the author, I came back to the workforce. I don’t know what’s the end game for the author, but I kind of feel torn here.
On one side, I’d say that it’s way easier to focus on building a business when you don’t have a job. On the other side, not having money to live on would stress me so much that I’m not sure I’d be able to do sport or engage in hobbies, let alone build a business.
Also, keep operating costs super cheap so you can keep the side hustle going and watch it grow over years. Don't shut it down unless you have to.
To make $600/m you would have to invest $180k at 5%, so from that perspective you have created something valuable already.
His timing wasn't great. The tech job market is pretty dismal right now and will likely be dismal for a while. Unless we get back to a hot tech job market like circa 2020-2022 it's not going to be easy to find a gig after being out for 2 years.
did that include retirement savings? Are you behind or on track for when you're inevitably too old to work?
Being “on track” is kind of an illusion to me. I believe it’s impossible to plan for more than 2-3 years ahead, let alone 20. I live below my means, invest as much as I can while finding a healthy balance between enjoying the moment and planning for the future.
$80,000 is a great down payment in most places of the USA. You could buy a large country home with a pool and a view in most places of the world with that money.
I like risk takers, but quitting your job and spending all that money isn't actually a risk, it's just kinda lazy.
I'm not trying to be mean. This guy's obviously doing a lot right. He has friends, he's physically active, he has hobbies. But none of these things requires spending down $80k with effectively $0 in income.
Maybe he reads this comment and it lights a fire under his ass. 2 years is too long to get going, bro. You gotta dial in, move faster, and make money in a few weeks tops, or just get a job and slow burn on the side.
IBM did a restructuring of my division in mid-2018 and I got RIFed. I pulled UI for 6 months and then lived off of my savings for a while - I looked at it as a mini-retirement. it was really nice, and made me appreciate work more (I'd been getting burnout from the IBM job).
when it was time to look for work again, the pandemic hit and I had a few tough months. I onboarded at a place mid-2020 and am still employed at the same place to this day. cant say I feel valued by the employer but I enjoy my job, it's a bit less stressful than my previous job.
I've been thinking of quitting with the assumption that my job skills will still be relevant in two or three years and that I have strong social skills that help stand out and a crowded worker field.
I just want to take care of some long-standing tasks, clean out my house, and enjoy waking up each day.
If I had that kind of money lying around I would move to another country, pay for my whole education, learn a new language and still have enough money for multiple full-time start-up attempts.
There's a reason people get paid $400k+/yr in SV. The place is expensive and you need to keep people there somehow.
I have some friends who work, sometimes they work remotely from my studio and when they do zoom meetings, oh man, ugh...
I don't see why a safety net wouldn't mitigate this risk in the first place, which would then allow for more people to take these risks and come up with great ideas as well
I have been working on personal projects since.
I have personal savings to last for around 3-4 years.
Lately I have been stressing a lot, thinking about what would happen if I fail to make a single penny in upcoming years.
Reading your post was a breath of fresh air.
I'm looking a long way back to when I was in your position : I got fired about 10 years ago, after unrealistic expectations and mental health burnout led to me making regrettable statements to executives.
The entire experience and time since is far too large to encompass in a post. But perhaps my biggest takeaway after all this time is that most people waste a great, great deal of money frivolously. Having even an average income, more often than not, leads to a lifestyle where it's standard to buy a $50 version of an everyday item because it has a certain stamp and shiny packaging, instead of the $10 one that frugal people use. Going to the food markets with a comfortable income is a thoughtless experience of filling bags with items you like the look of, regardless of price or purpose. Tens of thousands are dropped on a whim for a change of travel-box (car). An executive spends more on daily coffee than I do on my total coffee+breakfast+lunch. The income finds a way to be spent, but the experience isn't necessarily that different.
I'll indulge in another edit-in point. Home economics. It used to be a school subject. People thought it was about cooking, and sewing. Millions of mothers and grandmothers from past generations know that basic cooking skills actually = a lot of money in the bank. The best food you ever ate, at half the cost, in perpetuity. Concepts like these, where you trade a % of your time for directly applicable, $-winning skills (as opposed to using salary to pay others) is a key necessity of living sustainably outside the traditional 40-hour-week employment system.
The best part is when you realise it's all the same. You'll job Here, or you'll job There. Everybody does 24hrs of something per day, and if you're smart, you WILL find your way to comfort. Perhaps on surprisingly less money than you thought. It will just take time and persistence.
And if not, well, the traditional job market always wants smart people too, sooner or later.
- Move to a low cost place where other indiehackers go: thailand, bali. - Start living in a cheap hostel with other indiehackers - Copy an existing app with lot of users and something that interest me - Start with the lowest price possible. Keep on adding features and introducing expensive plans - Non stop marketing on X, FB, Insta, reddit etc
As soon as you leave your job it is a ticking clock. Every minute is important. I know mental sanity is important but life of entrepreneur is not best one if you want one. It is risky. It is a grind.
Edit: thankfully after a year I got a new job, contract role. I have experience but no degree so harder for me.
I probably will continue bouncing back and forth for the rest of my career.
I have similar symptoms, and basically I can't eat anything with Peppers or Chilies. The whole fruiting family. So no paprika. You would be absolutely floored to find out how many things paprika is in. Basically every flavour of chip you like. Curries often have them too.
This philosophy may not be ideal for your circumstances. You already knew you had limited funds and no income. "Slightly better than average" is overspending.
So you found yourself with some safety net and are contemplating reinventing yourself in some way. Maybe working on a side project, or supplementing your skillset by learning something new.
My first and top advice is to move to a place where just breathing and thinking is cheap. Travel if you can (i.e. you're young, have no kids, no relationships, no obligations). The slow burn will alleviate the stress and the need to precipitate a decision. Nomadlist, Numbeo, and the numerous nomad blogs are your friends. Start working on your projects from there. Come back home when you have some feelers moving.
Second. If your runway is only a year or two, prioritize acquiring a skill that'll make it easy to find work by the end of the run. Take a course on something trendy or valuable. If you choose to work on a project, also consider it the demo you'll eventually present to companies you'll interview at if things don't pan out. If you have 3 or 4 years, consider that you actually only have 1 to get something up and running.
Third. Don't be too ambitious with your first project. Aim to build something that can sustain living in a place where it's cheap to just breathe and think.
Good luck.
Overall, I think for a tech worker, the real issue is that so many women will not date a tech worker to begin with because of the low social status associated with dating a tech worker. I've met thousands at this point and it's honestly made me regret joining this industry. I do not advocate for it at all.
I think the bigger hurdle with dating beyond that anyway is physical attraction. The bar for that is really high now. Being a rock climber only attracts certain types because rock climbing tends to have more lanky builds. You better hope you're attracted to women who only want to date slim built men. That is a niche woman. As well, you can't escape your baseline genetics like height, facial attractiveness, etc. People talk about rock climbers sleeping with each other all the time but it's mostly men who are rock climbing. There are some women but the ratio is 3:1 - which means you're 2/3 chance of not getting anywhere.
So, what do I do now? * Household management: I handle cooking (about half), cleaning, shopping, finances, repairs—basically all the day-to-day stuff. * Supporting my wife: I act as her personal assistant. I write emails, grants, and curriculum; create her presentations and visuals; and handle whatever else she needs so she can focus on teaching. With my help, she’s raised over $100k in two years to support her program—not too shabby! * Pet parent: I’m a proud cat and dog dad. Side projects: I’m working on a web app that I hope will generate income someday. * Writing a novel: For the first time, I’ve moved past the endless planning stage and am actually writing! I’ve also got more ideas in the works. * Tabletop game design: I have about ten tabletop games in various stages of development, and a few are done. I’d love to get at least one published. A friend and I even created a tabletop game that teaches condensed matter physics (CMP 101 level) with funding from an NSF grant. It’s more of a euro-game than an edu-game, and we’re looking to publish it and maybe turn it into an app. * Self-care: Decades of work, especially in startups, took a toll on me emotionally and physically. Today, I'm more organized, more productive, more focused, and more motivated than ever. I have a lot of work to do to repair my health, but I'm working on it.
What I’m finally able to do: * Engage in emotionally rewarding activities instead of draining ones. * Pursue personal goals and dreams I’ve always put on hold. * Channel my energy into supporting my wife, which has made her happier and more fulfilled in her career—a first for her. * Be the master of my own destiny rather than living on someone else’s terms.
I do feel some anxiety about putting the financial burden on my wife. She understands and values the contributions I make to our household and her career, so there’s no resentment on her part. Still, I worry about what would happen if she lost her job or couldn’t work. I cope by focusing on the fact that the things I’m pursuing can generate income. If I channel my energy positively and healthily into these pursuits, I believe they eventually will.
If you can be fit and pursue arts or hobbies, you're already doing what people think they need to be wealthy to do, and most wealthy people are boring anyway.
Run a CRM pipeline to get a job and you will have one in a couple of months, then use the stability as a way to find customers for your next thing. If you can't run a pipeline for yourself, you won't be able to do it for a startup anyway. You're fine. Good luck.
If you signup and want it free please just email me (listed on my profile). Currently asking $15/mo for the app
Be sure to have cell phone and Internet access and be not too far from a Walmart, a hospital, and, maybe, auto repair. In the US can get nice weather, usually not too hot or cold or too wet or dry, in the East at the latitude of, say, Kentucky.
In Maryland, Virginia, and DC, there is lots of Federal Civil Service employment, and the hiring is not based much on "who you know" but what you can do, education, experience.
You're making fun of your readers.
Somewhere you have hidden money or people that will help you.
The end.
Unfortunately I need healthcare. An ACA plan cost me $1200/mo. over COVID when I was out of work for two months. It was a complete panic. Just mortgage, utilities, food, and healthcare was almost $3,500 a month. Throw in car insurance (because I'm American) and it was unsustainable. If there's one thing the ACA is - it's not affordable. A complete garbage program that has enabled health insurance companies to take our money by force.
I've realized there's no way I can do this. I missed my window when I was in college (because I was working - for healthcare). Now I'm condemned to suffer until I retire or die. A consummate worker drone shackled by literal bureaucratic bullshit.
No, it doesn't mean you can still go out to eat and have a club membership. If you save nothing after you use up your entire paycheck going out to eat and paying for a gym membership , that means you aren't handling money well.
Sorry folks, but many of us here sound entitled. Having been poor and scrambled my way up, it was depressing reading.
2 years time for what? To build something with other people? A partner, family, children?
Nope, just doing what brings him fun or fulfillment or whatnot...
I'm not saying it's bad to take care of yourself from time to time. But as a father of 5, I can definitely say that the best and most instructive moments in my life were definitely the ones where it wasn't about me but about people who were important to me.
And the money issue that most people seem to be talking about here: Go to work and earn money. That's life. It always has been. If people would only do what fulfills them, there would be no sewer workers or garbage collectors. Whenever you take advantage of a developed society, you always have a duty to give something back to it.
If there is not Time enough after a 8 hour shift to to what you want, you have a serious Problem.
People are different. Some are just not “as resilient” as others. Some have mental issues. Some have other priorities in life. Some people are just overwhelmed when they have to focus on more than one thing (their own wellbeing) - which should and cannot be confused with selflessness.
Not everyone wants to accept the common conceptions of life. And that’s ok.
I couldn't imagine anyone wanting a job not finding one. At least in the US, there's industries hurting for skills shortages. We're also on the edge of a cliff of baby boomers retiring.
Getting a low-salary one, unrelated to your skills, is fairly easy (e.g: waiter).
The nordics arent really as inviting, socialist and helpful as many US interweebs might think.
Sweden and Denmark will only pay unemployment if you have unemployment insurance. Called A-kassa. It is very expensive and you have to have paid it for a year to be able to claim benefits. If you don´t pay A-kassa you will have the pleasure of having them spam you to reel you on 3-4 times a week.
The Swedes and Danes have the highest taxes in the world but are using the US medical insurace as a model for unemployment.
Really not the welfare system these two countries claim they have.
The benefits you get from the A-kassa are extremly low. Less than average rent for a 1 bedroom apartment. You can buy another really expensive insurance to get a little higher amount.
And even if it's an insurance you have paid for you will get hounded to get any job, the Danish authorities may send you to do pretty much menial job they demand to get you off the benefits. The Swedish are not as bad as the Danish in that regard.
The way to live unemployed in Denmark and Sweden is to get into the medical system. Get a doctor to sign you have some illness. Stress is probably 90% of the cases in Denmark.
Then you get a small amount montly, it has been pre covered by your tax money so you dont need to pay the extortionate A-kassa (unemployment insurance) and no one will hound you to take some excruciating job no one wants to do.
This setup btw benefits the ruling parties in Sweden and Denmark as they can claim unenployment is at an historic low. No one counts the people on, I suppose it could be called, disability.
Iceland is a little different. Unemployment is covered in your tax payments, it's not a private (it's not supposed to be profitable, but trust me, for the A-kassa it truly is ) insurance like Denmark and Sweden.
In Iceland you have to show proof that you are actively looking for work and you will be cut off from benefits for an x number of months after an x amount of time. Do not remember the exact setup.
Bizarrely the Icelandic system is a lot more fair and less cruel than the Swedish and Danish. All three pay out a very very very low amount of money though.
Now, coming from a point of bitterness. This medical loop is exploited as you wouldnt beleive in Sweden and Denmark. I have people in my vicinty proudly admitting they are on "stress" leave because some employer said something mean to them they didnt want to hear.
So the working dane and swede has to pay minimum 44% taxes of their salary to keep this sham going.
I pay an exruciating amount of taxes in the Nordic countries. Sweden and Denmark are the highest. Iceland a little less.
It pisses me off royally to see the tax money gamed in this way and this has turned me to voting for parties I never thought I would.
Social democrats are a poision, maybe they were useful 50 years ago but today they do enourmous damage to countries that offer tax payed welfare.
tldr;
You need savings in the Nordics too if you are going to quit your job. If you can get a doctor to sign a medical paper that claims you had to leave work because of stress, you can game the system and let the taxpayers pay for your hobbies for a few years.
https://digitalcareers.infosys.com/infosys/global-careers?lo...
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https://www.epam.com/careers/job-listings?recruitingUrl=%2Fc...