"There's China" I said. "And there's Taiwan."
"You know Taiwan is really not that big." she said.
"What do you mean?"
"Map makers show it larger than it really is in order to exaggerate its importance."
I was a little weirded out by that idea. This girl was pretty intelligent, she seemed to know some math and logical thinking. She was in the process of becoming a CPA.
For better or worse I responded with practical analysis: "How would that even work? You and I could go buy maps right now for navigating ships and airplanes, those would have to be accurate in order to function. We could compare them to this one and if they are noticeably different we could complain and the company that made the map would lose face. Why would Rand-McNally give a shit about the political importance of Taiwan anyway, enough to risk their own credibility?"
"They just do. All map makers do this." She would not be convinced.
The most common form of map, Mercator projection, greatly distorts the area of land around the equator, and makes northernly (& southerly) lands appear much larger. It makes Canada, Greenland, Alaska, et al. appear quite large compared to Africa & South America. But those areas are much larger.
Indeed, the hole point of the projection was to make navigation easier by allowing rhumb lines (the shortest distances between two points on a curved surface) to be charted as perfectly straight lines on a two-dimensional map. From these lines of constant bearing, mariners could work out the precise - and constant - angle they should maintain in relation to the pole star in order to get from one point to another.
Without a reliable method for establishing longitude at sea, 17th Century navigators could never be exactly sure how far along their courses they were, but at least they could know that they were heading in the right direction. Given the level of uncertainty involved in these enterprises, this one piece of (relatively) hard and verifiable data was extraordinarily important, making the accuracy of the projection, and the mathematically - if not visually - correct placement of shorelines within it especially important.
Unfortunately, the iconic value of the Mercator projection has vastly outlived its utility - or at least, the common awareness of the once formidable navigational problems it addressed. Far from seeing it as a brilliant technical solution, it is often seen through a purely political filter that views its strengths as weaknesses, while completely missing the map's actual intent.
All 2D map projections produce either distortion or discontinuity. Neither of these affects a map's functionality in the way that outright inaccuracy does.
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Huashan+Road,+Shanghai,+China&...
The locations are all still off and they're consistently off by an offset throughout Shanghai. There might be some deliberate dishonesty by map makers in China, but I don't think this is evidence of it - I think this is just an inaccurate projection. If you want to make bad maps to confuse people - first, that's probably pretty impossible with current information systems, even in China, and second, this would be a really bad attempt at it.
http://noisydecentgraphics.typepad.com/design/2008/07/this-i...
I don't think it's unreasonable to think that China is manipulating its map data, particularly when other people here in the mapping industry have already said this is well known in their field.
An interesting anecdote from my side, though not necessarily map-related. But in the same theme as gp. This summer, I was volunteering teaching English to rural kids in China. One of the kids kept writing this big message on blackboards and stuff that Osama bin Laden was still alive. One of the local volunteers read what he was writing and was upset at him for fooling around so much. Later, I asked her what's up, and she told me what he was writing.
WTF.
So in the team meeting later that night, I talk with my fellow volunteers about this, and wonder if I have some kind of crazy kid on my hands. Then the Chinese volunteers told me not to worry about it, he's just writing stuff. I'm like, "What do you mean, how do you know?" Then they started talking about how people distrust the government these days, are unhappy, etc. I'm like, "What the heck does that have to do with anything?"
Turns out that all over the Chinese web, this was a really popular meme where Chinese youth displayed their sarcasm at anything the government said. Even things that they knew to be true could not be true because the government said it. It was only a meme, much like the Hitler videos we see on Youtube.
Scared me for a day.
But suffice it to say, people in China aren't so trusting of what their nation says as before. Living here, I hear it from my colleagues and friends every day. That being said, there's very little right now that they can do to voice their opinion because it's still a touchy atmosphere.
This lady is very informative. http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/yang_lan.html
Or, people have it ingrained in them that Taiwan is small, and they all know that Chinese map-makers are politically motivated, so they assume that all map-makers are equally politically motivated.
No.
You knew her disposition. (You were her friend). What was the goal of that comment, to incent a fruitless political discussion?
Edit: Whoa there. Why the downvotes? I am genuinely curious why the parent decided it was a good idea to stoke that discussion. I have friends whose political views are far from mine, and there are just DMZ topics that I don't dare bring up. For example, a discussion about the Federal Reserve and Operation Twist would be fruitless with my Libertarian friends, who just have a different opinion on that, which I believe is irreconcilable. I would say that's the same situation with Taiwan-strait politics.
Later, she, another friend from China, and I had a more in-depth discussion about Taiwan. It was really interesting to get that perspective.
P.S. I have no idea why you're being downvoted either.
- The map data is scrambled (GPS coordinates are encrypted). - To correlate a GPS position with the map data, you plug the HW position through an encryption library (which you have to compile in a specific government building in Beijing). - Border drawing is strongly regulated: no border line between Mainland China and Taiwan, Tibet is of course China, South East Asia Islands can't have border lines drawn and Kashmir is a big thing also with border lines. - You can't show pure GPS coordinates - You can't include a number or POIs in your map (mostly government buildings/facilities).
As a note, India as a certain degree of insanity as well: You can't export a map. Launching a PND there involved shipping a bunch of map technicians there to actually make sure we never got a map outside of India...
Cheers, R
what is the advantage of this? couldn't an attacker get a copy of the software? is there some kind of real-time authorisation step so that they can disable the transformation or change it?
[edit: thanks; wasn't thinking you thought it a good idea, just curious for more info]
I'm not questioning the advantage (in my view it's a small roadblock if you're motivated enough to actually get the data) just stating an inane regulation...
Do you guys put Tibet as disputed area on like 90% of the maps in the West? Really?
The case of Taiwan is even more confusing. A world globe I have from a decade ago, commercially published by a private business corporation rather than officially published, shows Taiwan and the mainland territories of China in the same color. (Usually this globe distinguishes different countries by different colors.) However, the globe also marks the location of both Beijing and Taipei (so spelled) with a star symbol indicating a capital city, suggesting that Taipei is the seat of a national government. United States law under the Taiwan Relations Act strikes a delicate balance between agreeing with the original assertion of both the P.R.C. and R.O.C. regimes that there is one China and Taiwan is a part of China and the current facts on the ground that China (the P.R.C.) and Taiwan (the island of Taiwan and various outlying islands, including some that historically were part of Fujian Province) are under distinct national administrations.
The Wikipedia article on Taiwan independence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_independence
seems to have enjoyed some good editing back-and-forth so that it is not entirely slanted to one point of view or another.
I'm sure there are thousands of Chinese engineers with careers transforming map coordinates. You don't want to put these people out of a job, do you?
Humans are funny.
A friend of a friend is a cartographer who works in DC. According to this person, the official subway map of DC distorts the true geography of the city -- and the subway lines -- as much for security purposes as it does graphic design purposes. The red line, in particular, apparently is drawn with a completely bogus path through the city on the maps. The true path of the line goes underneath the national mall and several important government buildings, if this person is to be believed.
But it wouldn't surprise me if an overlay on a cartographic map was intentionally inaccurate. One time I was in DC a cab driver was trying to get me to my hotel. His GPS went totally nonfunctional when we were in view of the Pentagon.
It would be an interesting research project to ride around subway systems with a data-logging accelerometer (like a smartphone). Integrate acceleration to get velocity, integrate velocity to get relative position, get GPS fixes when the signal is available, and diagram the results.
Which is pretty humorous since, once you're vaguely close to it, it's hard not to find it. If they built several other pentagonal buildings in the area, it would be a different story. :-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tube_map has some examples of more realistic London underground maps (older editions). It's a common topic of graphic design / visualisation courses.
The red line does turn south a bit going west out of Gallery Place, but it doesn't go any further south than D street and doesn't go under any important federal buildings.
Besides, what would be the point? The National Mall is absolutely riddled with tunnels! West to east there's an old streetcar tunnel at 14th Street under the Bureau of Engraving, the 12th and 9th street road tunnels open to trucks, two tunnels apiece for the yellow/green and orange/blue lines with the latter going under dozens of federal buildings, the entire Smithsonian subway station, large underground art galleries south of the Smithsonian castle, the buried watercourses of Tiber Creek, the National Gallery gift shop & cafeteria under 4th street, the I-395 Center Leg Freeway that has the DOL built on top of it, the United States Capitol subway system, the old C Street streetcar tunnel under Senate Park, and the First Street heavy rail tunnel under the LOC / Supreme Court.
Orange and Blue lines go under the Mall: this is reflected on the map. IIRC there is one stop at the Mall, several close. There aren't any Red line stops near the Mall.
several important government buildings
It's D.C. You can't shake a stick without hitting an important government building.
Trying to get satellite and the map portions to line up is very difficult. Trying to do it on a global scale with data from multiple sources... you get the idea.
Now please get back to China bashing and don't let the facts get in the way of your political/religious feelings. Remember to include lots anecdotal evidence and use the word red. And as always bring up other countries that seem scary on fox news.
I don't know if the author's analysis is accurate, but I'm pretty sure the author is Chinese. I doubt he is repeating what he hears on Fox News.
Not really. There are loads of different projection systems & coordinate system around the world, so all GIS software is able to deal with converting coordinates and reprojections etc.
Satellite & aerial imagery always has to be georectified and made 'location aware'. Once you've done that, it's trivial to reproject it to whatever system you want.
An example in Shanghai: http://g.co/maps/m34n8 An example in Seoul: http://g.co/maps/4gk3t
Note the near perfect alignment in the latter, and way-off alignment in the former.
It really does much more harm to China than a simple misunderstanding about projection errors.
[edit] BTW: India is similar, they are not scrambling the map, but it cannot leave the country either. So as a map-maker you have to have a local company there in order to do business.
[0] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_China#Legalit...
The problem of OSM in China is its limited data-set. For example, in the city I developed the project OSM had only the major streets, and the map was quite old.
And if you want to know the depth of a ford, well you can go and measure it.
So I really don't get why they would make them secret.
The naming of streets is also quite complex, if the street has been there for 1000years then it's likely that various of layers of government aren't quite in synch with what they are calling it.
so if google maps just uses a free public domain source it might not match what the city council or the post office use
take a look at this POI on 4sq: http://4sq.com/rArZMj
It starts with a street view. If you zoom in a little, turns out the bar is out in the water! When you switch to Satellite view, the bar is where it is supposed to be, on the shore.
I don't doubt there are issues, but in Beijing I haven't seen them.
If you switch between map and satellite mode here, you have a distance of about 390m between the location in both maps.
http://sautter.com/map/?zoom=15&lat=31.21741&lon=121...
You can see the noticable difference in street geometry.
it is a non uniformed transformation.being applied to.whole map , to lower the accruacy.
Secondly - I lived in Beijing for half a year in 2010 (ie. 2 years after this post was published). I used Google Maps often on my smartphone, and the GPS fix on the features map was incorrect (ie. I would be standing at a street corner and it would show me a few hundred meters down the street on the map).
I do wonder how much trouble Google goes to fix up maps in China. I can't really see enough of the map to tell if this appears to be deliberate distortion, or just another error.
Hopefully Google is still keeping their maps up-to-date... When I was in Beijing, I found the Google map much easier for finding bus routes that the local alternative.
http://maps.yahoo.com/#lat=39.8908713496569&lon=116.4246...
(This isn't a vote for Yahoo Maps, just an observation)