My service to check whether an item is counterfeit or not (opens in new tab)

@"I imagine most people buying Yeazys don’t have an authentic pair to compare with." — that's right! It's the position I was in, which is what I come close to mentioning in the article: it's why I made the app in the first place.

So even better than that would be a public guide where both the fake and the real are. That, plus somebody who's put in the hours to do a thorough job to explain the differences they've found.

@MTG - Somebody was just telling me the other day about these perfect (or 99% perfect) clones of Warhammer figurines. I didn't even know they can reach $1,000+ figures, but hey, with today's asset products, that doesn't surprise me.

Magic The Gathering, Pokemon games (not cards — we've covered a free guide on that), Warhammer — it seems like sky is the limit really. Whatever can be replicated and is worth $200+ will be replicated IMO

> I’m wondering how “counterfeit aware” payment processors (VISA, Mastercards, etc) are becoming?

A bit more! They trust our Certificate with less pushback these days, more than 2 years ago, when we discovered our Certificate can get people's money back. We guarantee the Certificate nonetheless, so if it doesn't get your money back from the bank or from PayPal, we refund the $60 you paid us.

I know you said payment processors, but it's the banks (exception: AMEX) that are responsible for that segment of the transaction, AFAIK — with chargebacks and what have you

But if there would be an easily integrable solution for banks/payment processors, I can see them moving vertically into that

The bigger issue is that the good counterfeits can get PSA or BGS graded (either officially, or a fake slab). PSA guarantees that their graded cards are genuine but Beckett does not.

With an Alpha Black Lotus going for over $500K, it's only a matter of time before undetectable counterfeits exist.

I bought some proxies to use in different EDH decks. The quality of the fakes was actually better than the real ones (anyone who follows MTG will know what I’m talking about).

Using a microscope it was pretty easy to tell them apart, based on the different printing technologies making different and hard to replicate pixel patterns (I don’t know the printing equivelent of a pixel).

Each proxy was $2, and you get to pick what you want. At that rate it’s pretty close to the rate you’d get if you bought a standard booster pack.

I wonder if it would be feisable for games like Magic to put technology like passive RFIDs into the cards themselves. Assuming you could make it work, it would also have some logistical advantages (automatically submit decklist, automated deck legality checks, anti-cheat checks for sealed pools...)

In what way is it a problem exactly? are counterfeit cards printed with unreadable font? do they fall apart when used? oooh, you mean its a problem for speculat^^^^investors, not for actually playing the game?

See https://legitcheck.app/

The headline doesn't help much. They are doing more than "writing order notes". It's a service to check whether an item (watch, purse, designer clothing, etc) is counterfeit, divided into 3 use cases:

-You’re about to buy an item and you’re not sure whether it’s authentic or not

-You’ve already bought an item and you don’t know if you’ve been scammed

-You’ve been scammed and you want to get your money back

"that’s what we do — we tell people whether their item is fake or authentic. Not authentication as in login authentication"

Should've made it clearer - a mistake on my part.

So you know how there are fakes of Rolex, Nike, Louis Vuitton etc — some are scarily close. We make guides on how to tell the fake from the real item, with the best fakes.

We teach people (for free)

But we also have a service, if they want us to check it for them

They are the product authenticators. You know people bring their antiques to the antique TV show and ask the antique authenticators to verify the authenticity of the items. It’s the same kind of service. Kudos for them to make a business out of it.

There's even more info for them in any of the guides: https://legitcheck.app/explore-the-library/

e.g. for this very item in the screenshot, the guide is: https://legitcheck.app/guides/real-vs-fake-hermes-birkin/

Partly answered here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27090248

Partly answered by someone else here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27089111

I think its simply not worth the extra effort.

Most people cant tell the difference between 90% and 99% close to original so they dont need to improve their quality to that point.

Legal interpretations aside, this seems like an xkcd 810 kind of problem!

Counterfeits are bad for consumers because they are often low quality similes with shoddy attention to details and cheap materials.

If the end result of this site is that counterfeits increase their quality control?

Well, it'll still be illegal, but at least I might be happier with half my Amazon purchases =]

I don't think counterfeiter need a website like this to know what to change. They know what to change, they are probably way more expert on the thing they counterfeit than this website. The thing is, they don't need to improve it at all, that's not their market, they try to be cheap, that's their market.

I say more power to them! I really don't understand why some fashion accessories are so darn expensive in the first place.

If all it means is that a few rich folks will feel bad because some poorer people have the same handbag as them at a party, I'm okay with that. They could probably do with being a little less materialistic anyway.

Because I don't think the business model is something worth guarding. Or that if somebody else replicates it (they have), we have a lot to lose.

I do believe in moats, and I'm trying my best to see what moats I can build on top of what we have to 'protect' the business

The moat seems to be the actual expertise.

See one of their guides: https://legitcheck.app/guides/fear-of-god/fake-vs-real-nike-...

What's to protect? There's no secret. You send them pictures and money and they tell you if it's fake or not. There's no secret sauce beyond their personal knowledge.

I actually found the writeup refreshing in acknowledging the luck (but also the hard work) behind the success.

Also unsure why it's flagged when I came back to comment after reading. The vouch button is also missing for me (or is that only for dead stuff? Not sure what the difference is)

I flagged it originally because at a glance it looks exactly like a scam. I unflagged it after seeing people actually having a discussion about it and saying there's something to it.

It's true that the title was sensationalistic, and I'm the OP. I probably hang too much in the 'build in public' sphere where it's all about the numbers

I mean it'd obviously benefit me more if we kept the old title, but that'd be too much me, and too little for the community

Title got corrected and I'm actually grateful the post wasn't fully taken down (or that I wasn't banned)

EDIT: And thanks for the comment below saying u upvoted!

> It may be easy to differentiate with counterfeit shoes, but what happens with art pieces, books, collectors' items in general?

We don't do art or books, but we do some collectors' items

> What happens when a buyer disputes a counterfeit item with their "message" and the seller doesn't agree?

We ourselves can help if the customer paid via paypal/credit card — we've got the service mentioned in the article, which gets people's money back with 99.9% success rate, which we also guarantee it (so if it doesn't get your money back from the bank or from PayPal, we refund the $60 you paid us)

But yes — if you've been scammed by a malevolent seller, they might even believe the 'message' (they themselves know the item is fake anyway) and not care to do anyhting

First edition Harry Potter books are worth thousands of dollars?!? I’m assuming that’s only in mint condition but wow.

I feel like it's not a knowledge problem to the counterfeiters, but more of how the economics work in counterfeits.

A lot of people are ready to pay for a 20$ bag on AliExpress and probably never seen how a real Louis Vuitton bag feels, so they don't see/feel the difference. Same thing for jewelries, watches, shoes, etc. You see a lot of fake Yeezy (for example), and you can probably get a similar enough shoe to the real one, but it'll cost 100-200$, and most people are not ready to pay this price for a "fake".

On r/repladies, I've seen girls pay 1200$ for "fakes" that are very similar to the real product, at a certain point that only a handfuls of people will see the difference.

Sneaker counterfeiters generally don't care all that much about pass authentication checks. For shoes, and most clothing, they care more about time to market (getting their fake out before or near release date) and price point. If someone is wearing fake shoes, unless they're outlandishly fake (there were some hot pink fake yeezys I've seen more than one), you mostly likely won't be able to spot these imperfections from a distance. Also, unless you're in the niche you probably won't care if they're real or fake. I'd liken this to hanging prints of famous paintings; people like the look but might not want to shell out for a Picasso.

I work with shoes on a daily basis and have done/do auth checks.

/u/not-math put it perfectly in the reply

Yeah, the bit I missed is why paying them 60 dollars for an official looking "I was scammed" certificate actually helps with the refund process.

Also, my next thought was that if you actually wanted to buy replicas, and were okay with gambling your money, it would be possible to buy the fake that pretends to be real, and then get refunded, you get a decent fake for free (minus risking your money).

I guess you'd need to create new accounts as the pattern would become obvious over time, but I like the idea of fakers, and platforms that don't prevent it effectively paying the price rather than dumb consumers, especially since it reduces the utility of online shopping for me.

could you expane?

We do. B2B Partnerships, some big companies trust us, and ultimately, I thought of the academic world so as to prove the expertise (I'm the complete opposite of an academic)

* We write public guides (see: https://legitcheck.app/explore-the-library/) - we have about 1m words written on the subject * People are free to contest it. If we're wrong, we'll correct * The more other people link to our guides, the more we get... credentials, I guess?

I'm glad too and grateful for the second chance on the article!

> I just have a difficult time seeing how it could be cost-effective, without being eye-wateringly expensive.

We write the guides first, which 'earns' us the 'audacity' to claim we know how to authenticate. I thought of the academic world so as to prove the expertise (I'm the complete opposite of an academic)

* We write public guides (see: https://legitcheck.app/explore-the-library/) - we have about 1m words written on the subject

* People are free to contest it. If we're wrong, we'll correct

* The more other people link to our guides, the more we get... credentials, I guess?

> you can't have a fashion purse expert determining whether an "antique" firearm (where forgery is a big problem)

We don't really get that far, into firearms and the such. Currently we do sneakers, clothing, watches, bags and some collectibles (e.g. Pokemon Cards)

> I'd assume the biggest value would be to contract with auction houses or appraisers, where the workflow would be familiar

We've worked occasionally with some (e.g. authenticated a pair of $20,000 Jordans: https://legitcheck.app/certificate-of-authenticity/property-...

But mostly B2C, so it's a consumer-focuseed service

> But I guess if it's really just sending links to Amazon listings

The products we're authenticating are mostly 'asset products', so items that are $300+, most of the time sold-out, have some resale value over retail OR retain more of their retail value than usual items (think: Chanel items)

> Being able to detect forgeries requires some pretty intense domain expertise, and that tends to come with a lot of experience and schooling

Does it really require that? Perhaps for some items expensive enough to have expert forgeries (like with artwork where sometimes you need to test the composition of the paint itself or x-ray the canvas) but I doubt that’s the case for the typical knock-off item where all you need are pictures.

Here’s how I would go about this if I, as someone who knows absolutely nothing about any of this, wanted to setup this kind of business.

First, I would search for images of popular items which have known knock-offs produced. Let’s say the Nike sneakers or the Louis Vuitton bag mentioned. I would gather as many pictures of the known, proven knock-offs as I could. Then I would find official images published by Nike and Louis Vuitton. Put the images side-by-side and it’s simply a matter of going through that children’s exercise where you spot as many differences between the two pictures as you can.

Then given all the differences I spotted, I would start writing up guides documenting all of what my rudimentary exercise discovered. Publish the guides to gain credibility and then participate in various forums where those products are discussed. Pump the free guides and get established as an authority, even though all I’ve done is use my eyes to spot differences.

Then, just as they wrote up, start offering to check people’s stuff for free. When it hits a certain volume, offer priority service, etc. Same playbook for that.

When you get an item you’ve never reviewed before — say, a Rolex watch — ask the customer to submit photos that exactly match ones that Rolex publishes (actually, you should always ask for matching photos to make the work 100% trivial). Rinse and repeat: spot the differences.

You may not find 100% of the differences but you can get close enough to authoritatively state if it’s a knock-off or not. If you hit a wall where you’re not sure if the Rolex is real or not, there are two options. If Rolex is amenable to this, send the images to Rolex and ask them if there are obvious signs of a fake. Then you’re just playing the middleman and if Rolex needs more photos to authenticate, relay that back to the customer. If they’re not, I’m sure it’s not too difficult to locate someone who you know has a Rolex. Or maybe partner with a jeweler and cut them in.

Hey, now it’s not just you anymore and you can claim you have a team of people performing authentications behind the scenes. Customers don’t need to know that your team is really just you and a buddy who can spot differences between pictures, plus occasional ad-how strangers, and maybe even the official companies themselves from time to time.

I’d be somewhat surprised if they didn’t do exactly what I described.

There is a spectrum of replica quality in the watch world. Some watches are very obvious to spot while others would be impossible to spot from a photo. There is also the concept of a frankenwatch: a watch that is a blend of original and non-original parts. Assuming the builder has done their research and due diligence with part selection, you would likely not be able to identify a frankenwatch from an original if they were sitting right in front of you. As a result, all watch exchange forums that I have visited have suggest that authenticity of a purchased watch be verified from a authorized dealer for that brand.

To expand on this, serious watch collectors will keep service records from authorized dealers as proof of authenticity. For example, many models of Rolex have “service” parts that differ from the parts originally used in the model. Pricing general follows the hierarchy: original parts > oem service parts > non-oem replacement parts. The pricing gap between each of those steps can be in the tens of thousands. So if eBay authenticates a Rolex as original and you later on find out it has some non-oem replacement parts, you’ve likely lost a significant amount of money on that transaction.

It's still possible!

It'd help us to open the watch, naturally, but we can still rely on pics. Make no mistake though — the watches can be 99.5% perfect, but (at least for the watches we're handling, which have high values) the compromise in manufacturing processes is spotted one way or another

It's worth pointing out that the discussion about replacing pieces of a fake watch with authentic pieces (making a so-called 'franken' watch, as rep watch connoisseurs call it) is a totally separate discussion

Auction houses do this routinely, since Thomas Chippendale died two centuries ago and can’t provide input.

It’s only problematic if you’re corrupt or incompetent and become a means to reinforce the fraud.

Seems unlikely. Why?

We do as well, but it's not only us. So the answer is a team. We get help from others as well on authentications!

Nothing that complicated. And it's not because I haven't explored that option

If anybody reading this is able to create something that can reach 99%+ accuracy in terms of authenticating items, I've (obvious in the post) got the distribution and the audience to sell this to — DMs always open if you've got something solid

Currently it's a fully manual process.

We have competitors claiming they're 'using AI' but it's a bullshit gimmick for the masses of users. Unless an 'AI' is having 99%+ accuracy, it's probably too risky to implement

Lots of fakes on eBay

They started efforts to curate that, but it's far from cleaning eBay 100%

What you're saying happens, more often than we wish it'd be the case.

That's why we never considered charging for our guides, even something as little as $1 → The point was to allow people to inform themselves about fakes, with as little friction as possible

That way, if we bump the % of people who get scammed by even a few negative points, we'd still be happy for a positive contribution

Some very good questions in this post that I would have also liked OP to answer. For context, I run a marketplace (https://vendiapp.com) where we physically verify every product transacted on our platform. We are focussing on Phones and similar high value electronic products susceptible to fraud. And visual inspection is definitely not enough to detect fakes in this industry. Also, average cost of having external experts is more than $20. So, there is a need for deep tech and a great supply chain to make the unit economics work.