This exact same thing happened with the previous threads
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26554697
and
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26556187
There are some awful transphobic comments in those threads, but they appeared _after_ the threads had been penalised.
There have been countless threads on the generic topic here (free speech online, let's call it) and the details of this particular story seem very specific to Reddit drama, indeed (not that I've looked closely) to some specific subreddit. If so, that's neither an interesting new phenomenon nor gratifying of intellectual curiosity (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html), so it's not on topic for HN and users have been right to flag these.
If this were a new article on the subject, it might fit. But links to Reddit threads while the drama is happening live? To me, that's gossip.
Edit: Disclaimer because that's how it is on the internet, I am transgender. Yet I have never heard of this person before and only learned their gender identity in the comments here. I don't care about Reddit or UK Politics.
They have a comparatively tiny number of employees and those people have a very real power to control narratives. We're seeing just the tiniest glimpse of that here because the employee in question has done so in an incredibly egregious manner. The question this whole incident should raise is "what else is going on, that we haven't yet seen?". The specifics of this particular example are uninteresting.
But see, we can't discuss this there.
As of now, it seats on the second page at #44.
Are we not capable of having a reasonable discussion around a person and their actions just because of this?
I'm not sure why HN needs flagging and down-votes... because flagging is being abused all the time (and I think that some users get super-heavy-flagging-powers, a bit like low level admins).
Any other reasons why HN wouldn’t publish a public audit trail?
Bots have effective veto power over every story.
Yes, HN tends to punish more-heat-than-light topics that overlap with perennial divise political/culture war issues.
If there are Reddit employees on HN that, for example, would cause threads like this to get buried, that should be looked into.
He certainly can unflag it and lock it that way if he wished.
Please do not name this individual, at all. Doing so may result in your account being banned by the admins.
Please do not ask further questions about this, as doing so may result in your account being banned by the admins.
Please do not discuss this incident on Reddit publicly or privately (e.g. on private subreddits and/or in private messages, chat etc.), as doing so may result in your account being banned by the admins.
Seems extremely sus to me and why we can't rely on private companies to protect things like free speech and equal access to information.
We do know that there's nothing 'private' about any social media platforms, but some people still believe that to be the case.
Now they are blatantly publicizing that private chats are being read.
Anyone remembers the outrage when gmail was analyzing emails to provide ads? What happened to that?
Google's PR seem to stay on top of that one: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26484883
Who is publicizing it? This is purely speculation by moderators who are not reddit employess.
no, they aren't: banning the item from private messages doesn't mean that they are enforcing it by reading private messages. It could mean, for instance, that if somebody complains about you including the item in a private message, you would be in contravention of the rules.
also, a robot daemon scanning private messages for the text string would not mean that your private messages were being read in any meaningful way.
It's one thing to prevent people from saying something on a part of your platform anyone can see it but if they want to talk about it one on one with someone else (someone who presumably has a block button at their disposal) then that shouldn't be censored.
It's the difference between a billboard and a letter. Of course a 3rd party can snoop on a letter. But a billboard is content that is intentionally put in public view.
The sjw mob created this situation. Reddit is a known hive of ideological extremism.
If reddit were to become as "regulated" as say facebook (an identical platform from a philosophical perspective) it would be in very deep water right now
https://old.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/mbbb56/aimee_challe...
[x] Link to David Duke's article and positive discussion of it.
[x] Bonus points for whites are the real victim of displacing native Americans narrative.
[x] Multiple posts about pissing off the lefties.
[x] Weird anti Bill Gates articles
[x] Multiple GatewayPundit articles on the front page.
[x] Calls for Trump social media.
[x] Random LockdownSceptics.org AMA.
I think that this is worthy of criticism, but the problem here is that the few journalistic pieces that investigate this also push a strong anti-trans theme while also criticizing her at the same time, and at least one of them (the Graham Linehan one) is most definitely against Reddit's hate speech policy. I would not be surprised if this is the source of most of the bans, which is causing more of an uproar amongst the people who align with Graham Linehan's thinking.
There are quite a few critical pieces that I see on Reddit that are remaining up, even her name being mentioned in comments and not being banned, so I don't think this is worth the uproar that is being generated.
That's where it started, but it seems to have intensified (based on my brief research, I think I've come across some of the earlier stories about Knight/Challenor previously, but it's not too of the mind stuff) because her current spouse is apparently an open (not active, at least openly) pedophile who has publicly posted about (among other things) fantasizing about children being forcibly kidnapped, tortured, and raped.
This, combined with the issues that arose around how much she may have been aware of, involved in, or defensive of her father's crimes would probably bring a firestorm of negative attention to her if she wasn't trans, and the fact that it's natural fit with the anti-LGBTQ propaganda angle that everything that deviates from pure cisgender heterosexuality is barely a step removed from bestiality, child rape, and the general collapse of society makes it the perfect magnet for the absolute worst that the culture wars have to offer.
certainly not accurate. In the sub and nearby subs involved, it was not known that they worked for reddit. The posting of the article was incidental. The person who posted it had no idea why it was removed and they were permabanned
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-45...
There's no discussion anymore.
I suppose they're responding rationally to the 'karmic' incentive.
"The reason why so many extremely woke people turn out to have been bigoted in the past is because bigotry used to be the best way to bully and intimidate people, but now performative anti-bigotry is the best way to bully and intimidate people. An evolving toolset for sociopaths." https://twitter.com/shantmm/status/1364992332064378880
To me, that's one of the best explanation of what we are witnessing at large.
The real reason was that she recruited her father as a campaign manager while knowing he was being charged for sexual offences, and he would eventually be convicted of raping and torturing a 10 year old child which was held captive in the attic of the house she was living in at the time.
NB the final picture is Challenor dressed as an infant (dress + teddy bear). Most other images are cartoon drawings from fetish/furry sites.
https://grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/ashton-challenor-the-bo...
(I'm posting this link as it seems important to the discussion. I'll check in about 30 minutes and delete it if it is significantly downvoted.)
Is there anything more damning against Aimee besides "she seems to have some unusual sexual preferences"? I find the idea that "this person likes cartoon animals in diapers" leads to the conclusion "and thus is a danger to children" seems like a stretch.
Hiring her dad seems like bad judgement, but she was 21 and it doesn't seem like there is evidence she was procuring victims or anything like that.
Graham Linehan is like the UK Tucker Carlson of hating trans people (note all the confusing misgendering in this article). Accusations from him should be taken with a large grain of salt.
If you had even some suspicion that this person could be compromised or maybe not be a great option for the ADMINISTRATOR of certain groups that could be easily influenced, wouldn't it be better to just decline them as not a great fit for that role?
This just seems like bad judgement given the fact that she was thrown out of two parties and just the association with her father at 21 (very much an adult mind you) seems like it would immediately disqualify her from working with children (note: nothing against them working for reddit, but in the capacity they were employed it seems incredibly irresponsible of Reddit)
Instead of listing everything, I prefer to refer to this piece that provides helpful references on how to cover stories about transgender people while remaining neutral on the subject: https://www.glaad.org/reference/covering-trans-community.
You will quickly notice that the text goes out of its way to deliberately break GLAAD's Media Reference Guide and others like it.
> Whilst we might recognise that Aimee Challenor is a tragic victim in this mess, we must remember the positions of power and influence he held and how quickly and easily he reached them.
The Spectator is equally vile too. It's the best example of how the British class system gives the most mediocre fringe twats a platform to deliver their vitriol with a public school veneer.
Not sure if linking profile archives here would count as doxxing, but the troubling content continues into at least 2018, when she would have been in her 20s.
I don't think a site-wide ban of the person who posted the link is reasonable, but it is a shitty article.
also, she was the one who banned people for it (sketch)
also, I'm not sure that's why they were banned
Think of it this way: if someone linked to an old article that used some slurs that used to be mainstream-acceptable at some point but aren't any more, would you feel uncomfortable? I hope you would. The reason people don't have this visceral reaction when it comes to trans people has a lot to do with broader lack of understanding of non-cis minorities.
There's an obvious problem with figuring out what the intentions of someone writing are. And we absolutely can't tell if e.g. someone dead naming is doing it on purpose or not. Not knowing and willing to learn is absolutely fine. But since you can't tell oblivious from malicious, you have two options: ignore assuming innocence or ban assuming malice.
Internet discourse is not courtroom, you don't have to assume innocence and it's absolutely fine to have a higher standard for communication on Reddit. Not that I think Reddit does, but it could. ;) So, again, what should you do with misgendering or dead naming? Since I sympathize with minorities and the oppressed, I would ban. But I'm absolutely sure many, many people would find a way to label what I'd considered hate speech "a freedom of speech issue" so I'm not at all surprised that this is causing a stir over on Reddit.
On one hand I can empathize with people seeing someone they know have negative press about them shared on a site they run and wanting to do something. But I thought the point of professionalism was refraining from this kind of behavior and applying rules consistently even when there is a personal connection. This kind of special-case behavior in favor of people with ties to the site is likely counter productive.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect
Edit: added quote.
* No affiliation, just stumbled across it today
banning definitely works, its not like reddit's reputation for mod abuse isn't unknown [1]
1. https://www.theverge.com/2016/11/23/13739026/reddit-ceo-stev...
It is much more satisfying to remove /r/all from the reddit equation. I can't even visit my local subreddit anymore because the amount of censorship by moderators is staggering. The dark marketing, once you can see it, is everywhere. And their comment ranking algorithm is suffocating.
I don't log into the site any longer.
Trouble is that deep knowledge of niche communities has taken 15 years - a not-insignificant portion of a lifetime - to accumulate. If the site dies, so much specialised discussion is scattered where it'll be far harder to find.
Reddit is in a bit of a difficult place; perhaps because of the legal duty of care Reddit has to their employee (particularly to someone who can legitimately claim to be marginalised) they can't just toss her to an incensed mob. Especially if that incensed mob was created by the actions of Reddit making clumsy choices.
To manage her political campaign, that's the important part. Being a candidate for a public office _is_ justified reason for discussing a person's employees/employers/companies/taxes/PRs/whatever.
I had no frakking idea on who she was until this, anyway.
The person in question probably suffers psychologically a great deal. Who wouldn't if they were dealt with the double-hand of gender-dysphoria and a pedophile father? I think it is safe to conclude this person is not well. Does the world really stand to gain much exposing a fringe activist to the opprobrium of the entire world?
I might sound radical in saying this, but I really don't think they do, and I think that societal shame needs to be regulated in proportion with how useful it is.
I think this is an attempt to defend her from that contravention of the hate speech policy, and is more cock-up than conspiracy IMO.
Aimee Challenor is a trans (MTF) woman who was very active in UK green party politics. She appointed her father as an official in her election campaign after he had been arrested for rape and torture of a 10yo girl. For which he would subsequently be convicted and sentenced to 22 years.
Adding additional color to the narrative: Aimee Challenor is very active in the furry and infantilism communities. And her farther committed his crimes while wearing wearing baby-doll dresses and nappies.
Aimee Challenor left the green party (accusing it of transphobia) and apparently now works in some capacity for Reddit.
Would reddit ban anything about this if the person in question was not an employee?
I understand the concern about harassment, but should anyone be able to get off reddit if they want to? Let's say Roger Stone wants no mention of himself on reddit, should he be able to say please ban anyone that mentions me?
Those were different times, were the Ellen Pao situation to happen right now again I don't think things would go the same way as they did the first time. This reddit admin person also has the advantage of being a trans, and trans people are the new token individuals (have been for one year and half - two, I guess), I can't see Reddit the company not taking her part 100% (even though she's in the wrong in many instances).
You have to be totally detached from reality to actually believe this. Have you not paid any attention at all to the number of anti-trans laws being brought in a number of US states? There's been over 100 in 2021.
Can someone please give a 5 sentence tl;dr of (a) who this person is, (b) what the original controversy was about, and (c) why the Reddit admins care so much?
This is one of those stories that keeps popping up in front of me but I really do not have the will nor the time to engage with it, so I'd really appreciate a concise and unbiased summary if anyone can offer it.
(b) While a candidate for the UK Green Party, she employed her father as campaign manager ("election agent"). Her mother, who lived with the father, also ran as a candidate and also employed the father as campaign manager. In 2018, her father was charged and convicted of raping and torturing a child in his home.
(c) This person currently works for Reddit, and is allegedly enforcing a line of censorship in order to protect herself from online harassment.
(b) While in the green party, she recruited her father as a campaign manager while knowing he was being charged for sexual offences, and he would eventually be convicted of raping and torturing a 10 year old child which was held captive in the attic of the house she was living in at the time. This brought disrepute to the party and she was removed. After this she got a position within the liberal democrats, and got suspended from the party after her boyfriend's twitter account was found to have posts admitting to having sexual fantasies involving sex with children.
(c) Reddit admins presumably care because they have now employed her as an admin, but don't want any criticism of her past as referenced in (b). This is presumably to protect her as an employee, but is problematic as they act as a news sharing site to some extent, and she is/was a public figure.
This person is a former British political candidate (Green/LibDem) who allegedly concealed from electoral officials the heinous crimes committed by their campaign manager. This person is now employed by Reddit and is abusing their newfound admin access.
The post made it sound like there was a consensus of Reddit admins who were behind the decision, but to me it sounds like this person was hired as an admin and immediately searched their name and banned anyone who appeared in the results.
The worst part is that this may have gone unnoticed except that one of the people was a moderator of a major subreddit. Now it's blown up and gone pure Streisand Effect.
Please can we merge with the original threads and consider keeping the source titles.
Another example here with a clear and explanatory title:
https://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/mb1vpb/rukp...
As per title change, please see my comment at the time of posting.
The link I've given also explains what's going on, yours does not (and the sub disappeared previously), people have to trust your interpretation in the title.
Edit: It took 22 minutes to have one of my posts locked ...
Both workplace environment (and, yes, not protecting from hostile environment on protected characteristics created by customers, suppliers, or other business contacts can be a source of liability) liability where she is currently employed by Reddit (which is in the US; I’m not sure which state, but that’s not super important since gender identity is federally protected within statutory protection of sex under the Bostock v. Clayton County decision), and, as far as anything potentially falls into the realm of defamatory fact claims, libel liability in any jurisdiction in which Knight/Challenor has defensible reputation interests; notably, this includes the UK, which has neither a NY Times v. Sullivan-style high bar for defamation liability when the subject is a public figure nor CDA Section 230-style protection of online platforms from being treated as a publisher of libels submitted by users.
[0] https://old.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/5frg1n/tifu_...
[0] https://grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/ashton-challenor-the-bo...
[1] https://reddit.com/u/bpwpb
[2] https://grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/something-rotten-at-the...
Apologies if this breaks HN title rules but the original title is not descriptive.
Discussion developing on Twitter due to Reddit site wide bans.
https://twitter.com/search?q=Aimee%20Challenor&src=typed_que...
https: //www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/mbd6q1/the_green_partys_woman_problem_the_spectator/grxxbzx/
As far as I know Reddit doesn't maintain previous edits, so this is also a cover up, and it prevents any recourse.
[0] https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/mbbb56/aimee_challe...
There has to be some sociological phenomenon that explains these kinds of events, and the strange group-think hivemind warfare type behavior that is now commonplace on all social media, across the entire political spectrum.
Does anyone have reading recommendations? This kind of thing fascinates me.
Edit: for this story in particular, there is a pressure of cancel culture on both sides. On one side, a person's husband got doxxed after having admitted online to having pedophilic fantasies. On the other side, there is mass Reddit censorship together with attempts to cancel people for supposedly being "transphobic". The cancelation and doxxing seem unwarranted and unpleasant to me regardless of which side is doing it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/mbbb56/aimee_challe...
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/aimee-challenor-and-the-...
r/aimeechannelor - hopefully the name lets us get a bit of chatting in before the ban hammer drops :)