I wonder... would this be theoretically possible? If so, are there any peer-reviewed papers published?
Any harmonic distortion in the headphones will be introduced relative this, as well as being in the higher frequencies where it's less noticable, but still may cause hearing loss.
I've used ANC IEMs instead of proper hearing protection around loud machinery before and although it may have felt quieter, my ears still "rang" afterwards so I was causing permanent hearing damage. People who think ANC "sounds quieter" and use it instead of proper hearing protection (or just turn the music too loud) will definitely suffer hearing loss, though not directly because of the ANC.
I am not an audiologist, but an interesting similar issue happens with our eyes. If you wear tinted lenses with no UV filter, your body will be happy that it looks darker, and open your iris more. Now since your iris is open more, you actually cause more UV damage to your eye without noticing. I remember this being a big story when polarized 3D movie glasses came out and people were keeping them on outdoors.
not always true. Minor phase mismatch will create higher frequency sound. You wouldn't hear ultrasound, though how bad it is to have an ultrasound source in you ears i don't know.
The phase mismatch can be temporal - circuitry reacting either a bit too fast or too slow - as well as spatial - the sound wave front most probably aren't parallel to the speakers frontal plane.
So, you’d have to argue that short, sudden peaks are more damaging than continuous sounds. There is adaptation to sound volume (https://asa.scitation.org/doi/10.1121/1.1906477), but I think you’d need more than that.
I have no idea if active headphones are "bad", just that they make me feel very uneasy.
The downside is that Custom In Ear Monitors are pricy (> $1000). When you have them made, you can often choose how many db of ambient sound attenuation you want.
At the time I couldn’t find anything on Google about this, but I still bought the headphones anyway.
Using the headphones the lingering thought of that statement bothered me. Using the headphones something didn’t feel right.
Flash forward to now, people are talking about this so I can’t find relevant info on this without the well (Google) being poisoned by armchair doctors.
I still feel noise cancelling is not healthy for ears.
If you want to worry about sudden sounds, there are probably more dangerous sources of them out there.
Keep in mind that Apple sells a massive number of AirPods. On the order of 100,000,000 units per year. The prevalence of tinnitus is estimated to be in the range of 10% of the population.
It's also possible to impact earwax against the eardrum when inserting anything into your ear, Airpods or otherwise. Earwax compacted against the ear can worsen or modulate tinnitus. That would be my most likely explanation for any sudden-onset tinnitus following earbud use.
Source: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/tinnitus/symp....
Trust me when I tell you that this is the tip of the iceberg and may result in a massive lawsuit over permanent hearing damage. I avoid AirPods Pro like the plague now.
I posted this 3 months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24805366
https://www.nidcd.nih.gov/health/tinnitus
I have it, mostly from hunting without ear pro. I dont always notice it, but its always there. Its usually mostly noticeable when im going to bed at night,when scuba diving, or when on a plane and I havent cleared by ears.
OR if/when i have headphones that create a seal in my ear, like the silicon earbuds that create, which is why you can hear yourself chewing/swallowing. Its a main reason i don't wear those types of earphones.
Tinnitus is always there, its permanent. But it just may be noticeable under certain conditions or circumstances.
Your tinnitus might have just become noticeable with the Airpods or perhaps something completely unrelated impacted it.
I had tinnitus flare ups during lockdown so went to both an audiologist and an ent specialist (had a mri too). I'm a heavy user of ANC devices as a means to relax/cope with my environment so I suspected the devices.
Professionals told me that there was no hearing damage and that my flare ups were likely connected to clenching my jaw and stress. I mentioned my devices/usage to my health professionals and they said there is no reason for concern.
After some physio I'm much better off.
If people are working from home in quieter environments where they're not exercising while using ear pieces / headphones more often, it shouldn't be surprising that tinnitus is becoming more noticeable. This is also during a pretty stressful time too, which doesn't help with tinnitus.
I'm wondering if this is caused by ultrasonics? Someone must have measured these somewhere...
The nurse essentially has an angled syringe that they use to repeatedly spray warm water at the wax until it’s dislodged. It’s not a nice sensation but tolerable.
After the procedure was done, the nurse had asked if I regularly had in ear headphones or earplugs - which was the case. So be aware of this issue.
It's a complicated topic, though, because many people first notice their tinnitus because they start paying attention to their ears for some reason, such as an earwax removal procedure, or using noise-cancelling headphones which lower the noise floor so much as to make tinnitus obvious over the reduced noise floor.
About 10-15 squirts past the moment when you think there can't possibly be any point to what you're doing, an eldritch horror will come out of your ear into the sink, and you'll hear sounds you haven't heard in years.
Then do the other ear.
It's a very serious thing and it's dead simple to produce dangerous loudnesses, that close to the eardrum. What I ended up doing for tracking drums and loud things, is investing in some heavy isolation headphones, Sony drivers in the same kind of heavy tight enclosures used for ear protection at gun ranges. They're pricey, but they work.
Otherwise, you're still getting close to the sound pressure levels of whatever drums or amps you're playing, and then you're trying to turn up the backing tracks in your headphones to be enough louder than that, so you can hear what you're working on. And that's super dangerous.
Same thing with music to drown out noisy subway rides or what have you. You'll go deaf. Extra fast.
I rode a diesel electric locomotive commuting daily for about 8 years. These machines are very, very loud.
600 out of 200,000,000-300,000,000 units sold is a reported incidence of around 0.0002%.
It's possible that earbud usage has some negative effects in certain people due to earwax impaction or changing pressure in the inner ear, but Apple may be getting the blame because they're the only vendor operating with such large market share.
Tinnitus can be a lifelong condition and deserves investigation.
It already seems like a platitude to tell folks not to listen at peak volume for extended periods of time. It'd be interesting to see if there are common behaviors, such as use at max volume, reported amongst those affected.
I gave it a listen and sure enough it seemed to diminish the tinnitus while playing. For the three or so days afterward, though, I experienced the worst and most piercing spell of ringing I can recall. Never again.
Im now curious about research in therapeutic use of headphones and related manipulative technologies. They’re clearly capable of doing something.
Any connection here would be interesting.
IIRC you press your ears shut with one or two fingers on each hand, and then tap with another finger on top of the pressing one. This should make an almost uncomfortable, punching, loud noise. Or maybe shut your ears with the heel of your hand and then use your fingers to tap on the back of your head. Forgotten how long you supposed to do it. Maybe a minute? The idea is to safely "overload" the hearing apparatus, pushing it into "self-protection mode", but allowing it to relax in the off-beat phase. For many people this seems to enable them to easily achieve a temporary period of peace from symptoms.
Loud white noise seems to do something similar.
I assume this breaks the perceptual feedback and offers the brain a chance to expect something else, before it rediscovers the chronic noise again.
I can usually ignore or distract it away. Until I’m reminded of it by articles like these and it tries to consume me.
I'd like to try the notching technique[2] but I have yet to be able to identify the frequency of my tinnitus.
[1] https://mynoise.net/NoiseMachines/neuromodulationTonesGenera... [2] https://www.pnas.org/content/107/3/1207
Another thing to be careful about is some medications can aggravate tinnitus. My me it was my BP medicine. Switch to a different one made an immediate improvement.
Many people get tinnitus. Many people have AirPods. Could this be correlation not causation?
Does anyone more knowledgeable know the details of how AirPods (or similar) could cause tinnitus?
I assume the ANC is still pumping in a lot of frequencies that do not get 100% cancelled-out, but are outside of my hearing range so I do not notice them in the "silence" but which is hammering my physical ear bits with audio energy.
For me the ANC is audible when used without audio, but I imagine the ears get stimulated whether you can perceive it or not.
Since stopping using them the tinnitus has gotten significantly better (still there, it never goes away, but not as extreme).
I’m not talking about ionizing radiation, cancer, etc. (sure, there’s plenty of studies on that; we know, there isn’t), but on how those high-frequencies in close proximity may affect metabolism or other normal functioning — no such thing existed during our evolution.
The reason I mention thyroid gland is that its disfunction may have very bad consequences (wiki it). Cognitive, psychological, etc.
Really would like to see studies about possible impact on that. Until then, just to be safe, I try not use any bluetooth headphones or use them wired (most have that option).
Not that you push cell tower or your wifi router against your head, isn’t it?
There’s a reason standards have different values for head vs other parts: https://www.apple.com/legal/rfexposure/iphone13,3/en/
Also read the manual. For iphone 4 apple stated at least 15mm separation between the iphone and the head (5mm? nowdays). How many people just push it against the ear instead?
Maybe this isn't down to something obvious with the audible sounds, but interference, or amplification of some other thing the Airpods radiate. See old mattresses picking up radio signals.
Maybe it's a hit-piece on the Apple stock.
Maybe this is just numbers and chance.
I wouldn't straight dismiss it, since it's not exactly unbelievable and Apple has a history of delivering innovation without paying due diligence to/testing the not UI details.
A lot of the discussion here seems to be around the Pro and Max's ANC. So I imagine it's a similar, but different concern.
Personally, when I upgraded from AirPods to the Pros my average volume I used dropped drastically. I got this info from Apple Health which tracks and warns of consistent high volumes.
I had been playing computer games countless of hours per day, not with any loud volumes at all and I started getting insane tinnitus when going to sleep. One day I stuck my head real close to the monitor and noticed a high pitch coil whine-like sound. Either the frequency range changed over time or it was always audible but I didn’t notice it in the beginning. It turned out the monitor had been blasting high pitch whine all this time and being exposed to this barely audible loud sound caused me to have this crazy temporary tinnitus.
A few days after getting replacing the monitor the issue was completely gone and I never had it again.
I sometimes wonder how many people have it, but don't notice the existence of it until later into adulthood (because they're not putting much attention on it).
Another case of “OMG Apple!” click bait.
It’s the AirPods Pro specifically. I have not experienced this with the regular AirPods or the Max. Never had tinnitus, got it immediately when using Pro and went away immediately when I stopped using them.
From what I understand some people can get very loud cases. I’m not sure how I’d deal with that.
Daily user of airpods for years, and no changes to my tinnitus.
But what helped me with those other issues (like itchy ears) is to listen to my doctor (no pun intended) to "forget" I have ears. Only wash the outer most part of the ear and leave it to do it's part. Wax, although unappealing, is nothing bad and is actually protective. I cleanse it with a hydrogen and olive oil spray mixture from the pharmacy every few months.
I dealt with the constant tinnitus for the following four weeks. Thankfully, it resolved itself with time.
I suspect the feedback loop was in part due to poor fitting of the AirPods in my ears. Regardless, I did nothing to trigger it aside from using the earbuds. Apple ought to take these claims serious.
...then again was just a theory based on precisely zero hard facts.
Consider also that audio engineering treats the world as a mixture of pressure oscillations. If you look at the world as a sum of pressure delta functions, you would never attempt ANC. It’s easy to phase lock and destructively interfere with a frequency. It’s impossible to do the same with a delta function. The real world maybe a mixture of both, but not easily separable, and to some extent I think the brain is already pretty good at ignoring constant frequencies, while the delta functions drive us mad. Think about a bird versus a hammer, a cello versus a ratchet.
My favorite setup is earplugs with over-ear headphones. I think audio circuitry gets things wrong and overdrives the high frequencies sometimes, so the ear plugs help filter it out. The worst for me was the bone conduction headphones - serious problems from those. And one more thing, if you always listen to music, try listening to nature for a bit, either in the real world, or through some very high-quality speakers. I don’t think the Pros are quite good enough for this.
I used to listen to songs with a wired conventional headphone for when I wanted to isolate myself from distractions for high attention work, but range limitations like the cable connected to the PC didn't allow me to move freely, no transparency mode so I had to take them out to talk with anyone, no multipoint bluetooth so I had to take them out to answer my phone and not having cables and being light in general just means I even forget I have them on. Now with a sony 1000xm4 basically all those opportunities to have my ears rest became unnecessary.
Add to that the fact that the ANC just opens up the possibility of listening to less fatiguing and attention drawing songs, so while I may listen to lower volumes I might also listen for longer periods and with less interruptions. Not to forget services like spotify with the possibility of listening to an eternally long playlist without any thought (while with a CD or mp3 playlist it would eventually reach an end from which I'd have to stop and think if I want to continue listening).
At 600 it is far more likely people have just noticed they have tinnitus or have had damage from some other exposure.
For instance I have tinnitus and it also flares up due to my jaw clenching issues. I suspected my AirPods at one point as I'm a heavy user of ANC devices and struggle with city noise (I wear them a lot even at home). My specialist basically said it wasn't the issue and to see a physio-therapist and sort your jaw. My hearing tests also came back perfectly fine.
And while we can’t yet reverse hearing damage, that’s no excuse to not protect your ears if you’ve already done damage. We can’t fix if, but you can still make it worse with repeated exposure.
I have the kind where you have a buzzing sound when things are really quiet and I only really noticed it after going to a quiet city (versus SF).
I think this needs to be researched because it doesn't seem that tinnitus is reversible and if ANC headphones are contributing to it, then we're in for a whole lot of hurt after this pandemic...
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/tinnitus/symp...
0. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5812683/#S8titl...
* wear a mask and social distance with anyone outside your bubble during a pandemic
* don't put shit in your ears unless advised by a doctor to do so
* if the sounds at a concert are so loud as to be uncomfortable to you, leave
