Being outside of the city center it won't contribute too much to gentrification and probably it will help Brandenburg getting more people to live there, pay taxes, buy property, shop, etc.
So far reactions have been neutral to good, which by Berlin standards is an amazing result.
I kind of wonder if the decision of bringing the factory to Berlin wasn't based on the amount of software engineering talent that is available, more than the more traditional engineers.
In any case, I'm happy about Tesla coming to Germany, interesting times!
Brandenburg as a state is an interesting. Crucially, it's not the state of Berlin (Berlin is s city state within the German federation). That means access to lots of grants/subsidies and also that they are somewhat shielded from the chaotic governance in Berlin.
Is that a more literal translation of Bundesrepublik Deutschland?
In English, Germany is normally referred to as Federal Republic of Germany?
Aside from that, Brandenburg is rich grounds for the other staff a factory needs. You can combine cheaper EU-labor with mid-range jobs very well in Germany.
The only thing Tesla could face which it wont like are unions and workers rights because Germans sure won't put up with 100 hour work weeks or similar business practices.
Like the Gigafactory 2 in Buffalo did for New York state?:
But according to SolarCity’s financial statements, state officials “quietly issued a series of 10 amendments” to Tesla, allowing the high-tech jobs to become regular positions and requiring just 500 hires within two years -- down from 900. Tesla told Vanity Fair it was still responsible for creating 5,000 jobs, but the timing for the additional jobs has been extended to 10 years after the factory’s completion.
SolarCity was the center of the Buffalo Billion corruption probe by federal prosecutors, which last year led to high-profile bribery convictions of several people, including Louis Ciminelli, whose firm won the solar plant construction deal.
https://www.syracuse.com/state/2019/08/elon-musk-is-full-of-...
They only, and rightfully, get pissed when mega corps like google/amazon come in the city center, buy a 40 storey building and starts paying everyone 100% more than the average for the same position.
From comments on here people have been saying the developers are seen as the poor cousins to traditional Engineers.
Siemens is big in Niedersachsen (e.g. Braunschweig) so it's more about East/West divide.
So when a big (and presumably well-paying) company is going to create lots of jobs in the country, whether this is in an eastern or a western state is indeed a very important question.
EDIT: Please note though, that it's somewhat controversial how relevant the divide really is these days. Some will tell you it's 90% in peoples heads, others will tell you that there's still a long way to go before we can really call the german reunification complete.
I think they can just get it for (relatively) cheap there and that would be the main reason.
But the statistic I assume you are referencing is a few years old, and Berlin has been the fastest growing state in Germany for quite a while now, a development that is still increasing. The numbers for 2019 aren't out yet, but I assume that at this point, Berlin is exactly average in per capita terms for Germany.
Why Berlin has been an outlier for capitols is quite obvious: It has only been Germanys capitol for a bit less than 30 years, and before that was divided.
If I had to speculate, Tesla is concerned about finding people willing to relocate, and Berlin is a rather attractive destination even for people not speaking German.
I think what you meant is that Berlin has a net inflow of tax money.
I could imagine that the factory staff would often live closer to the site, in Brandenburg, not in Berlin which has housing problems and is accumulating more of them through rent regulation.
This will produce pressure on Europe to ease for instance the AI regulations and basically removed Customs tax from many other countries because Tesla can send the cars from three different locations.
I just don't understand why Tesla is slow in expanding to other countries. Here in Israel we don't have Teslas and it's an extremely innovative place with very good conditions for an EV as Israel stretches 424 km (263 mi) from north to south. like two or three charging locations and you're done.
You might have missed this very recent news:
> International car company Tesla published an ad seeking an operations manager in Israel, thus confirming that it plans to launch significant operations here. [1]
[1] https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/business/tesla-to-launch...
They don't have the capacity. Last quarter, they made as many M3s they have the capacity to make, and sold all of them. Opening new markets just means underserving the current ones more. They will start operations in new countries as they increase capacity and start saturating sales in their current ones.
We were told, repeatedly, that Tesla would be producing 10,000 Model 3s per week in 2019, with a single factory. Suddenly, now, they don't have the capacity at ~6,000 per week and need multiple factories on zero year-over-year growth?
I live in the Baltic's and a friend of a freind has a Model X which was involved in a minor accident (other drivers fault) last year. To get it repaired without affecting the warranty it had to be sent to Tesla, which meant it had to be taken to Finland (700km) or Germany (1000km).
Shop has to: - have access to service manuals using Pass Thru - this is requirement on the car producer. - document all repairs - do the repairs in a way the producer documented them
I’m not sure if size has much to do with it. Tesla is in remote countries like New Zealand (1/2 the population of Israel) and Iceland (about 1/20th the population of Israel), as well as neighbouring Jordan (similar size to Israel).
Even getting parts to certified shops anywhere right now is particularly challenging, its is one of the reasons I think they aren't profitable yet--they have to pay for a loaner car.
They've made a ton of progress and can now mass produce S/X/3 with reasonable turn around, but with the recent production hell ramp up with 3, they had to direct all resources to those desposit holders and that meant slowing down part manufacturing for non deliverable sales.
The factory in Fremont is HUGE but near there is a body shop where you'll see a ton of S/X/3 waiting for parts to be shipped out. I honestly thought it was an auxiliary parking lot when I saw it.
What part of he Baltics? With Rimac putting its footprint down you'd think that area would be have more of a Market for EVs.
Tesla is expanding as fast as they can. After huge struggles they finally got their Fremont plant working right. Then they immediately set to work building a plant in China, and got done remarkably fast.
Now they are going to build a plant in Europe. Probably next will come India, and then maybe Latin America or the Middle East, and there I suppose Israel would be the best location.
Why, comma, you say that as if building a car outside of Germany and selling it inside of Germany would face some sort of unfair obstacles, rather than being a straightforward and painless process as it ought.
As a tesla fan and owner, I hope you get your superchargers. I've heard rumors that they've just started seriously producing the supercharger v3 hardware at the Buffalo, NY factory (Gigafactory 2), so maybe as that ramps up you'll be good.
Consider tweeting @elonmusk and asking. I did that for slow parts delivery and had the issue resolved in two days.
The issue is with Tesla, they still didn't make the move on us I guess. At least I have my Tesla shares though.
"so that no one would stifle the company's path towards autonomous EV's."
Who is "stifling"? And many companies work on autonomous cars.
"This will produce pressure on Europe to ease for instance the AI regulations"
What AI regulations in Europe? And what is Europe? The EU?
"and basically removed Customs tax"
This is not how custom taxes work. The EU is one of the biggest free trade zone in the world. If Mercosul joins, it is the biggest.
"I just don't understand why Tesla is slow in expanding to other countries. Here in Israel we don't have Teslas and it's an extremely innovative place"
Because Tesla is burning through cash like a motherfucker. And Israel is a tiny place. This is also why, to my knowledge, nobody build cars in Israel. I mean, why not Dubai?
Wait, isn't this is exactly how custom taxes work? Say the EU charges a 10% tax on all imported passenger cars (it does, and 25% on pickups and other trucks). Now, if Tesla sells cars to the EU that were made in the USA, wouldn't it trigger that import tax?
Now, say Tesla builds a factory inside the EU and makes cars there (as it plans to do). When sold in the EU, those cars wouldn't be charged an import tax because they're not being imported.
Right? What am I missing?
No one yet, but it means the company is less beholden to a single regulatory environment. This is generally a good thing.
> What AI regulations in Europe?
https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/the-european-strategy-of-r...
https://www.ft.com/content/4fd088a4-021b-11e9-bf0f-53b8511af...
https://www.theverge.com/2019/4/8/18300149/eu-artificial-int...
https://www.loc.gov/law/help/artificial-intelligence/europe-...
Also, most of the self-driving car regulation is state-level until the DOT pushes something through or Congress passes something, so for now, there are fifty different regulatory environments to pick from here.
> Mercosul join
If a whole other continent joins, it will be the biggest? The whole point is that Europe has geographical and (some) cultural continuity. Mercosul is South American. Why would it join the EU, especially considering that it would be out-numbered by its former colonial masters?
> Israel is a tiny place
No one said build there, people mentioned selling. Apparently, they're also sold in neighboring Jordan. I really can't understand why they wouldn't sell in Israel; it's a richer nation and a better market.
The customs tax is in regards to countries/jurisdictions other than the ones with the Tesla factories. For instance a country like Israel might have a 20% tariff from Europe but 0% from China due to different bilateral deals so Tesla will send cars from there.
Israel is different than Dubai because literally a third of the population are in the tech space. Israel’s main export is tech and the tech ecosystem will build on-top of Tesla (Waze for example was founded here and there are many auto security startups for instance).
It’s not going to be written down on paper but there’s plenty of evidence to support it through their history of actions. And Germany has the largest influence on the EU economy wise having the largest GDP by far.
Completely dropping customs tax because a foreign company factory opened there is a bit much though.
There are many, many SV companies with large offices in parts of the world with very strong workers rights. I work in one of these. There is no problem, other then I'm not expected to work weekends and be on-call at unreasonable hours. If this is required I would need to be compensated for it.
Secondly; perhaps I am reading into this, but I get the sense you are implying that "less work" will be done due to these protections. You may be surprised to find out that German factories are actually quite efficient ;) , and that treating workers well gets them to work more, not less. Having a healthcare system that means you can bring your children to A&E at the weekend and not get caught for $1000s means you can come to work on Monday with a clear head.
Having protection from "right to work" means you can voice an opposing opinion without fear.
Having a paid holiday means you can come back to work refreshed with a clear mind, and not "burn out" as fast.
Having maternity, and paternity leave, means happier parents (like, in a abstract way, not like in a oh I haven't slept in 8 months I'm soooo happy way). Let's call it out here. Giving children a good start in life sets them up for success.
On a global team you can quite clearly see the results of the different work environments, and the various impacts each environment has. From a tech point of view, I see this most critically in the ability to voice controversial opinions, or push back against your manager for example.
I assume you mean "at-will employment"?
Right-to-work laws, in the US, are laws saying that employees cannot be forced to join a union as a prerequisite to employment.
At-will employment laws, again in the US, are laws saying that employees can be terminated for any or no reason, except for a list of specific reasons like race, sex, age, religion, and probably a few others. Unless there's some kind of employment contract, which the majority of jobs in the US don't have.
An American Manger in BT NI manged to cause some major problems by not being sensitive to the special employment laws in Northern Ireland.
Also IMARSAT had a spectacular car crash of a court case in the UK when some one blindly imported US style HR
"Look he made it work in Germany with their "strict" workers rights. It can't be so bad"
Also going to Germany, right in the face of the traditional car industry is a great show off too.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/nov/13/tesla-cit...
German labor institutions are strategically oriented towards collaboration (much like in the US), they are extremely centralized and anti-democratic and if you're in the workers' council and you're a member of the supervisory board, socio-economically you belong to the upper class. This facilitates the same corporate conspiracies as everywhere else.
Furthermore, East-Germany's labor market as a whole is much more like Eastern European labor markets. It is super-exploited. However, it is right in Western Europe where you've got access to decent infrastructure and massive subsidies.
How does that happen‽
Even if there had been a consensus on almost-rip-and-replace immediately, it's not clear that could have been done as quickly, given the amount of preparation needed.
(As an example of the kind of changes, during the building process they decided to re-assign arrivals and departures to different floors of the building. Which in an airport has fairly fundamental consequences due to security zones etc...)
This sentence is never true.
It's not true in software it's even less so in construction.
The issues would have been there even if the construction was done perfectly, you always fix such massive infrastructure for their whole lifetime (it's not simply a building!)
This time they fucked up and the airport didn't pass the safety checks necessary to open it, but there is constant fixing and changing and upgrading and scaling in an airport facility.
Tearing down it and rebuilding it it's never an option and never a good idea, unless the structure is severely damaged or contaminated (e.g. asbestos)
Corrupt State/Corporate entities who'd rather have money in their private bank than complete given task for public good.
When I read "embarrassingly poor planning" and similar phrases in articles about it, I have to think of someone who "clumsily" spills coffee on the dress of Marilyn Monroe, for lack of a better image, and then "embarrassingly" ends up with his head planted on her chest, because he "stumbled" while "hastily trying to make up for the mistake with a handkerchief". Sure, that's one way to put it. But beyond all the plausible deniability, someone is benefitting, one way or another.
(Tesla fans: relax.)
Might even be an investment opportunity: Swoop in and buy the whole mess once the German government decides it has thrown enough money into their bottomless pit.
Musk: "We chose Berlin as the location because it has the only CO2-free airport in the world"
1. Brexit hasn't happened yet. I.e. UK has not been able to introduce policies that would make it a lot more competitive and friendly for business than the EU/Germany, make it friendlier for international talent, which is one of the opportunities created by Brexit.
2. We do not know what would have happened had Parliament and civil service been more positive and cooperative on Brexit. It could be a self-fulfilling prophecy - remainers in Parliament inadvertently creating greater uncertainty, which in turn drives business away as the leavers are unable to realistically guarantee a more competitive / friendlier for business Britain in the future.
Are you arguing that there is no scenario under which Brexit could make Britain a more attractive place for business than the EU or Germany?
They kept out Google after massive protests. Not sure this is the same thing though.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/oct/24/google-ab...
p.s. I'm based in Berlin. Have no horse in the race except that the Google office would have been right down the street of where I work.
So to summarize:
Tesla:
- builds factory in a practically greenfield area
- employs middle-class workers
Google:
- buys old building in the middle of the "hip" leftist city district
- employs high-wage workers which will drive gentrification
So I think this will be received at least with mixed voices, but mostly positively.
Google probably could have moved their office location ~2 km and have been fine. But they really wanted to sit right in the hornet nest.
1) Berlin is suffering from pollution, especially the diesel. For city dwellers the switch to electric car can't happen fast enough, and German auto makers have been absolutely dragging their heels. Tesla has become a symbol, a fuck-you to BMW, Mercedes, VW and their gas guzzling, diesel pushing ways. It's unbelievable how out of touch the german automakers have been.
2) The factory means some working-class jobs. The left won't see anything wrong with that. It's the coming gentrification that caused the upset against Google.
3) Factory is just outside Berlin, technically in Brandenburg. Near the (forever in construction) BER airport means less concerns about noise, etc.
They didn’t protest against the new Spandau Siemens campus either. Siemens being in the arms industry, while Googlers openly protested against any military-related research during the same year. It’s just that no nobody wants to live in Spandau.
The area around BER is even further away, and the close-by Adlershof is pretty much Berlins center for STEM research (many suppliers are there too). Could be a good move.
But I'm very happy about people standing up for their neighborhood and actually protesting. Having a Google office with >400 decidedly well-compensated people move in would very much change the neighborhood and not for the better.
People fighting for their own local interests is what makes Berlin great, and it is _so_ refreshing after having lived in North America where no-one protests anything and letting corporate interests dominate yours is the norm.
i don't understand this. so berlin would rather have poor citizens? how is that better for the city? and how would >400 "well-compensated" people affect the city in anything but a positive manner? has there been any sort of study as to how better wages affect a city?
This was a „Google for Startups Campus“ project. Co-working spaces and startup events and so on. Money and potential funding for the Berlin startup scene.
I’m rather worried how some vocal and partly violent people, seemingly without a lot of understanding of what they are campaigning against and how the tech world works managed to stop this project.
I'll join the protests myself.
Wasn’t the Allied War effort in WW2 “Anti-Fa”? Or am I missing something?
Perhaps this could be added to the reminders list for the next Remembrance Day?
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-World_War_II_anti-fascism
On top of that Brandenburg government will definitely sprinkle some tax breaks.
Germany is a very stable robust economy that might be their #1 'export source' - there's a lot of related knowledge - and in a 'cramped Europe' - the Berlin area is wide open.
FYI Berlin has 'wide avenue streets' which are totally unlike most other European places, sometimes it feels like Los Angeles and not Europe.
It might have been possible to go to Czech/Poland but there are just a large number of 'little things' that can go wrong over there, issues best left to those who know and operate the market well.
Compound this with the probable politics of the game and it makes sense.
In a way it's the most obvious choice.
There are ways yo try to "hack it" like subsidies or having personal relations with someone high up but I don't know how cost effective and long term they really are.
So if people want long term improvement, they should vote for a strong legal system instead of "I personally brought this factory here".
Doesn't sound right to me. Why is that the first~third thing you're mentioning? It's almost like we scorn the concept of more people working in an area towards a positive goal (renewable transport). Yikes.
I actually start to feel sorry for politicians for a change when they have people who want mathematical impossibilities.
– Excessive meetings are the blight of big companies and almost always get worse over time. Please get of all large meetings, unless you’re certain they are providing value to the whole audience, in which case keep them very short.
– Also get rid of frequent meetings, unless you are dealing with an extremely urgent matter. Meeting frequency should drop rapidly once the urgent matter is resolved.
– Walk out of a meeting or drop off a call as soon as it is obvious you aren’t adding value. It is not rude to leave, it is rude to make someone stay and waste their time.
– Don’t use acronyms or nonsense words for objects, software or processes at Tesla. In general, anything that requires an explanation inhibits communication. We don’t want people to have to memorize a glossary just to function at Tesla.
– Communication should travel via the shortest path necessary to get the job done, not through the “chain of command”. Any manager who attempts to enforce chain of command communication will soon find themselves working elsewhere.
– A major source of issues is poor communication between depts. The way to solve this is allow free flow of information between all levels. If, in order to get something done between depts, an individual contributor has to talk to their manager, who talks to a director, who talks to a VP, who talks to another VP, who talks to a director, who talks to a manager, who talks to someone doing the actual work, then super dumb things will happen. It must be ok for people to talk directly and just make the right thing happen.
– In general, always pick common sense as your guide. If following a “company rule” is obviously ridiculous in a particular situation, such that it would make for a great Dilbert cartoon, then the rule should change.
If there is something you think should be done to make Tesla execute better or allow you to look forward to coming to work more (same thing in the long term), please send a note to [redacted]
[1] https://medium.com/@StartupJourney/elon-musks-6-productivity...
"If the schedule is long it's wrong, if it's tight it's right. The best part is no part, the best process is no process."
All the hacking away of parts and processes pays off with speed.
Of course that applies to many other places in Brandenburg with similar distance to Berlin, but the airport means that transportation to and from the city has been (or will be) built out for higher capacity.
Also it has to be close enough to the city to make commuting from the population center reasonable, no?
Also in Bavaria, once you leave Munich (BMW), Augsburg or Ingoldstadt (Audi), there is quite a steep drop-off in density. The traditional high-density industrial regions of Germany are rather in the west and south-west.
That is about as good as it gets.
They probably got the land cheap and commitment to build at another record breaking pace.
I mean we used to build factories on the river for that reason. Made a royal mess, but easy to ship things in and out.
[1]: https://www.bundesfinanzministerium.de/Content/DE/Standardar...
https://www.syracuse.com/state/2019/08/elon-musk-is-full-of-...
Yesterday USA Today published an article about the disaster the Nevada factory has been for the State, and HN didn't care:
https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/investigations/2019/1...
Today, Elon mentions a new factory one day will be built in Germany, and HN loves it. This company is bullet proof.
And Teslas are not designed to milk the consumer for repairs over the years; they are designed to convince consumers that electric cars are a better choice.
The Model 3 is designed to last 1 million miles. So sure, it will be fascinating to see how they do... but that's like 25 or more years from now.
Not true if you live in an area where the roads are salted in the winter. Then they don't last any longer than on an ICE car unless you reduce or turn off regenerative braking. I had to have two replaced at the last service because of rust for just that reason and the car is only four years old (Model S).
Tesla's advice was to reduce regen in the winter so that the brakes get used a bit more. A colleague also suggests doing an emergency stop once a year in the summer on a dry road to scour the brakes, not tried it, no idea if it would really be effective.
Reported site is Grünheide, some 40 km drive from Brandenburger Tor, and a bit shorter distance from the under-construction BER airport.
https://www.berlin.de/en/news/5972608-5559700-elon-musk-tesl...
What makes me curious is that this village is actually within a nature protection area, Naturschutzgebiet Löcknitztal. I could imagine that building such a symbol of international market economy there might attract anti-capitalist demonstrators and involve protesting and riots. But perhaps I'm wrong.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Gr%C3%BCnheide,+Saksa/@52....
I also find it somewhat interesting that in the political composition of this village of 8000 residents, the Social Democrats and Linke (Left) have 3 seats, and two seats are held by CDU, AfD, and.... Freiwillige Feuerwehr.
Yes, the voluntary fire brigade is apparently popular enough to feature in local politics. I think this is a somewhat sympathetic phenomenon in German local politics.
I see Tesla & Berlin playing out well.
Bunch of tech nomads hide out in Berlin and I'm sure the city is keen to steal market share from more traditional German car powerhouse cities.
More than the industry average in the state of California? If so, care to site your source?
It was originally intended to replace both Schönefeld and Berlin Tegel Airport and become the single commercial airport serving Berlin and the surrounding State of Brandenburg, an area with a combined 6 million inhabitants. However, it is now planned that it will not replace any, with Schönefeld Airport currently being expanded due to rising passenger numbers, and Tegel which will remain open after a referendum.
After almost 15 years of planning, construction began in 2006. Originally planned to open in October 2011, the airport has encountered a series of delays and cost overruns.
Since German reunification, air traffic in Berlin has grown greatly. In 1991, the combined passenger volume of the city's airports was at 7.9 million per year. By 2014, this number had risen to 28 million. When Berlin Brandenburg opens, it will have a capacity of 27 million passengers per year.
Summarized: when/if BER will open, if it will manage to handle immediately its max capacity (best-case scenario), it won't have enough capacity => the other airports will still be needed (until BER is expanded) :|
There are a lot of Berliners who love Tegel and don't want it to close even when BBI is eventually open (whenever that may be). TXL is truly a fantastic airport, and would become even better when not overcrowded.
B, C and D are as crappy as you'd expect hosting sleazyjet, ryanair, germanwings etc etc, although it's 80% business flights in the mornings and seasoned air travelers tend to make security and so on less bothersome than if you arrive at the same time as 150 hungover brits trying to get back to gatwick.. ;)
- Airport BER (still not open)
- Cargolifter airship factory (now used as a waterpark)
- Lausitzring (was supposed to host the F1, now hugely unprofitable)
- Semiconductor factory in Frankfurt/Oder (abandoned, only the building got finished)
I am not aware of one single project that materialized as planned. The odds are against Elon on this one...
