http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/elon-musk-boeing-7...
"Large cells without enough space between them to isolate against the cell-to-cell thermal domino effect means it is simply a matter of time before there are more incidents of this nature," he adds.
"Moreover, when thermal runaway occurs with a big cell, a proportionately larger amount of energy is released and it is very difficult to prevent that energy from then heating up the neighboring cells and causing a domino effect that results in the entire pack catching fire," says Musk.
"They [Boeing] believe they have this under control, although I think there is aUnfortunately, the pack architecture supplied to Boeing is inherently unsafe," writes Musk in an email to Flightglobal.
"The fundamental safety issue with the architecture of a pack with large cells," writes Musk in an email. "It is much harder to maintain an even temperature in a large cell, as the distance from the center of the cell to the edge is much greater, which increases the risk of thermal runaway."
The 18650 cell is the most-produced Li-Ion battery cell in the world, and Tesla has been enjoying the benefits of low prices on these cells as Roadster/Model S/Model X battery pack development has coincided with the switch to laptop form factors where this battery cell doesn't fit. In fact, Panasonic has re-opened production lines for these cells that were shuttered due to falling demand, due to purchase agreements with Tesla. Tesla's incredible demand for batteries means that cell choice is a very important decision. It's worth noting that Tesla's engineering leadership has indicated they are both form-factor and chemistry agnostic, and will always go with the option that makes most economic sense.
I wonder as well if the honeycomb type structure formed is inherently less prone to structural deformation.
I'd be worried about the electrical resistance of all those contacts, and the heat it produces. Tesla's battery pack seems like a more intelligent electrical design, with a barebones mechanical design to back it up.
Modern high volume, quality focused manufacturing will often prioritize ease of assembly over elegance in design. Fewer, simpler steps make for fewer defects and greater product consistency. It's the whole "lean manufacturing" ideal at play, done right it will lower costs and improve quality to a point that you can splurge on a little engineering elegance such as a small-volume hybrid model capable of being assembled on the same line as your high-volume offerings. Tesla doesn't have to worry about this for now as they compete in a high-margin segment of the industry and they are trying to set a benchmark of excellence that will create demand for their products.
A real world example I've seen in person is the Nissan Leaf. The battery is designed to be as safe as possible for handling by a line worker and that allows Nissan to produce the Leaf at the exact same time as plain vanilla Altimas are rolling down the line. If you ever take a tour of their Smyrna, TN plant you'll see 1 line with a 9 or 10 Altimas interspersed with a Leaf every once in a while. It's smart engineering at a production-level viewpoint as a "worse" battery allows an entirely different product to be produced with minimal production overhead.
The biggest issue is vibration loosening a connection in the longer term but there are plenty of time-tested ways to avoid that from happening.
Even fork lift battery packs (which can carry immense currents) are still built using the crimp terminal/bolt through method.
Love that warning.
"Do not look at it funny or it will explode and you will die."
Totally nuts to work with DC voltages this high without taking safety precautions. Anything over 50V DC is to be treated with very serious respect.
AC is different, you get a good number of opportunities to dis-engage, but with DC your muscles contract and that's that.
I'd rather mess with 2 KV AC than with 200 V DC.
Lovely engineering on that pack by the way, the number of safety features is very impressive. Sure looks a lot better on the inside than mine ever did!
( http://pics.camarades.com/d/90045-1/IM000398.JPG )
(That's only 48KWh but at 48V so much higher current)
I think I've found the source of the pack:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/32687-For-sale...
Original asking price was $29K.
Also, if you don't mind me asking, how much did your battery bank cost?
The DC damage is a condition called 'muscular tetanus'. The main risk with AC at medium voltages (say 40 to 250 V) is that your heart goes haywire. Though those voltages could easily kill you too.
Yes, you should always be careful. But DC is most definitely more dangerous at the same voltage once you get over 48 V DC (the so called 'safe voltage', but that's a misnomer because under the wrong conditions voltages lower than that can still be fatal). The critical component by the way is current not voltage. Voltage really doesn't kill but current will. AC voltages are typically reported RMS, whereas with DC the 'peak' is also the average. Assuming the DC supply can produce as much current as the AC supply.
Being shocked by neither is good. But the choice between 200V DC and 200V AC is a fairly easy one for me and I've been shocked multiple times by both during my very long time of taking stuff apart and fixing things (yes, I try very hard to avoid that). The AC ones were mostly non-events, the DC ones were (even at lower currents) things to remember years later. Quite possibly that's not correlated with safety but it is definitely a data point (or rather several of them). Avoiding being shocked is a very good way of never having to find out how accurate this all is. One particularly memorable incident was hooking myself accidentally to the HV supply of an old tube radio. Don't do that. And be extremely careful with capacitors and DC batteries, they can supply a ton of current long enough to kill you. HV transformers much less so. (At least, the ones that you would normally encounter outside of industrial gear). And I suspect that the internal resistance of those supplies has a lot to do with whether you're going to be dead or writing about your experiences because it has a very direct impact you the current resulting. HV AC supplies that will supply very high current are hard to find, usually are transformers with relatively thin secondary windings. A battery pack like this is made to supply 100's of Amps at 100's of volts. That's lethal, make no mistake about that.
That battery bank cost $7200, 2005 or so prices.
More than you ever wanted to know:
Apparently the DC current required is 10 times higher to do comparable damage than the AC current. This is totally at odds with both my first-hand experience and a ton of interaction with professionals. So I'm a bit confused now, there is a whole pile of literature out there that says one thing and then the wikipedia page claims the factor of 10 going the other way, citing a book that I don't have access to.
The fact that the electrical chair is AC was possibly a hint, but the electrical chair was developed during the 'current wars' by the AC proponents. (I'm not sure if they tried to convey the idea that AC was more dangerous that way, it seemed to have been an ill thought out decision from a marketing point of view.)
I'll keep looking and reading to see if I can find an authority that decisively claims either the one or the other.
The factor of 10 seems hard to believe, to generate a 30 mA current through a human body at 230VAC would become 2300V DC for a 300 mA current through that same body (per Ohms law), that's ~800 Watts delivered versus ~80.
2300V 300mA sources are hard to come by but a 600V DC source that can do only a few mA will blow you clear across the room, which makes me wonder what would happen if you happened to interact with a source that is capable of substantially more than that. This would also mean that a 300V DC source such as that battery pack should be perfectly safe to work with but I don't believe that's true for even a moment.
So, my apologies for the unsourced rejection of your claim, to be continued.
Reducing the sheer number of casings on individual cells would radically reduce weight/volume.
Then with less groups of cells you could actually have the BMS monitor them like my lifepo lithium battery for bicycle.
It might not be that the number of layers makes it fundamentally expensive.But instead the design and manufacturing might not be yet very optimized.
If a cell burns it is going to take out its neighbors anyway.
Or they could start to do something similar to LiFePo4 which will not burn.
thanks again archive.org
I know it's kind of a losing battle, but "publicly available" does not mean "in public domain".
I would be terrified to drive a car with this technology.
From what I understand these are stock Panasonic NCR-18650 3100 mAH batteries though.
Any ideas on what "special chemistry" they are using?
I am not terrified to drive a car with that technology.
While I worked in EVs for 6 years, I have no knowledge of the Tesla BMS - they were not our customer and I worked mostly in motor control anyway.
EG - looking at a truly innovative use of existing technologies pushed to their limit and engineered to a sum greater than their individual parts.
Makes me want a Tesla even more.
Do you know if Tesla has any way of improving or making this faster?
I'm rebuilding ThinkPad X200 9-cell this weekend that is filled with 18650s and repaired a PBX about 15 years ago that had them in it so they appear literally everywhere.