The National Assembly voted Wednesday to demand President Yoon Suk Yeol lift emergency martial law.
Under the Constitution, martial law must be lifted when a parliamentary majority demands it.
Of the 300 members of parliament, 190 were present and all 190 voted in favor of a motion demanding the lifting of martial law. With the motion's passage, the martial law declaration is void, according to the parliamentary speaker's office. [1]
>Martial law will remain until the president lifts martial law"...Armored vehicles also seen in the city center
https://m.ytn.co.kr/news_view.php?s_mcd=0101&key=20241204013...
Very much not good...
My understanding is that the parliamentary vote itself is not binding, but requires essentially a rubber stamp by the cabinet. They can decline to do so and the President wouldn't be legally required to stand down. Regardless, 190-0 is an overwhelming statement and if I was represented by one of the 110 absent members I would have a lot of very serious questions for them.
Any idea how and why it was unblocked ? Anyone with more context ?
EDIT: This is the first I cannot think of any reason for getting a downvote... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Martial law is about using the military to control civilian activities. The police are civilian. Their order is to maintain peace, not to interfere with people who have legitimate business at the facility. If Yoon really wanted to preempt the national assembly, he should have sent in the military earlier.
"1. When it is required to cope with a military necessity or to maintain the public safety and order by mobilization of the military forces in time of war, armed conict or similar national emergency, the President may proclaim martial law as prescribed by law.
2. Martial law shall be of two types, extraordinary martial law and precautionary martial law.
3. Under extraordinary martial law, special measures may be taken with respect to the necessity for warrants, freedom of speech, the press, assembly and association, or the powers of the Executive and the Judiciary as prescribed by law.
4. When the President has proclaimed martial law, he shall notify the National Assembly without delay.
5. When the National Assembly requests the lifting of martial law with the concurrent vote of a majority of the total members of the National Assembly, the President shall comply."
https://www.constituteproject.org/constitution/Republic_of_K... page 16
[1] https://en.yna.co.kr/view/AEN20241203013900315 [2] https://en.yna.co.kr/view/AEN20241203013200315
If the President is accusing "the country’s opposition of controlling the parliament, sympathizing with North Korea and paralyzing the government with anti-state activities," that vote will take place without the opposition.
(It's mindblowing they left this in their Constitution after the 80s.)
> The entrance to the National Assembly has been sealed, and MPs have been barred from entering the building, according to Yonhap.
> Following Yoon’s announcement, South Korea’s military proclaimed that parliament and other political gatherings that could cause “social confusion” would be suspended
conflict vs conflict
Some translations say "guarding martial law" instead of "precautionary": https://elaw.klri.re.kr/eng_mobile/viewer.do?hseq=45785&type... "Once guarding martial law is declared, the martial law commander shall have authority over the administrative and judicial matters concerning the military of the area where martial law is declared."
But this time it was the emergency one.
They are very proud of the country they built over just a few generations(and really since about 1990); no way they take this sitting down.
They've had seven leaders since 1993 (before which they really did have a military junta in power). Three of them ended up impeached or jailed for corruption or wrongthink [0], a fourth has just attempted to use the military to crack down on the opposition. This is more like what I expect from Argentina or Brazil than a fully fledged democracy with peaceful transitions of power, say France.
That said, the Economist has it at #22 on its Democracy Index [1], one of the worst "full democracies" but ahead of France #23, USA #29, Brazil #51.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_South_Korea
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index
[1] https://x.com/BigBreakingWire/status/1863964015376089313
Seems like a coup.
> Yoon’s conservative People Power Party had been locked in an impasse with the liberal opposition Democratic Party over next year’s budget bill.
Yeah, just like in France where the government is expected to fall within the next two days. Not a reason to attempt to force the way: the fact opposition can actually sometimes fulfil its purpose which include blocking a budget is a normal thing in democracy.
This is instead a rejection of the democratic process. I don't know enough about SK's internals to say if the democratic process is already dead because of corruption (as the leader claims), or if the leader is trying to kill the process using corruption as a scape goat - but everyone should strongly lean towards the later.
South Korea is a new democracy and sudden impositions of martial law harken back to the 1970s-80s when military rule existed.
Best case, this is a blatant attempt at a self coup d'etat.
Worst case, North Korea actually engaged in war.
Obviously none of us know the details yet but there are clearly better possible outcomes than a full on coup.
Makes me think of the Gwangju Uprising in 80s, which happened after martial law was instated, after a military dictator was put in place. IIRC, the US was also involved with the newly installed military junta.
I’m no expert but I find it hard to believe there’s much pro-PRK sympathy in Seoul among a major political party.
Considering this is making western news, it seems the president has over-played his hand. Hopefully this passes quickly.
Democratic opposition can seem stifling. However the solution is to negotiate.
The leader here is taking an authoritarian dictatorship path so a solution, unfortunately, it appears to my eyes.
National Assembly has voted to lift martial law. Yoon (and the army) would still have to recognise it.
Do folks have any recommendations for how to keep up with global news at a high level so that you're not completely clueless when something like this happens? Like I mean some sort of "international edition" of an aggregator like Google News, I guess.
I live in the "rest of the world" and never thought of myself like that.
I went to check to see if its available online- even via my local library, but it seems The Economist was pulled from major online sites around 2023 due to their pricing model. So I can't verify if this was covered. That said, what information has trickled out points to this being a big surprise, so there may not have been storm clouds brewing that could have foretold this.
Edit: Got past the paywall on the site and did a search and there appears to be no articles published that would have predicted an issue like this: https://www.economist.com/search?q=south+korea&sort=date&pag...
https://theonion.com/the-economist-to-halt-production-for-mo...
I can't imagine reading every issue cover to cover unless it's really relevant to your work.
> In order to protect liberal democracy from the threat of overthrowing the regime of the Republic of Korea by anti-state forces active within the Republic of Korea and to protect the safety of the people, the following is hereby declared throughout the Republic of Korea as of 23:00 on December 3, 2024:
> 1. All political activities, including the activities of the National Assembly, local councils, and political parties, political associations, rallies and demonstrations, are prohibited.
> 2. All acts that deny or attempt to overthrow the liberal democratic system are prohibited, and fake news, public opinion manipulation, and false propaganda are prohibited.
> 3. All media and publications are subject to the control of the Martial Law Command.
> 4. Strikes, work stoppages and rallies that incite social chaos are prohibited.
> 5. All medical personnel, including trainee doctors, who are on strike or have left the medical field must return to their jobs within 48 hours and work faithfully. Those who violate will be punished in accordance with the Martial Law.
> 6. Innocent ordinary citizens, excluding anti-state forces and other subversive forces, will be subject to measures to minimize inconvenience in their daily lives.
> Violators of the above proclamation may be arrested, detained, and searched without a warrant in accordance with Article 9 of the Martial Law Act of the Republic of Korea (Special Measures Authority of the Martial Law Commander), and will be punished in accordance with Article 14 of the Martial Law Act (Penalties).
> Martial Law Commander, Army General Park An-su, Tuesday, December 3, 2024.
https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/full-text-south-k...
so, the Assembly meeting to even discuss this is explicitly banned.
I'm curious if you have some sources for this? I'm not that familiar with SK politics and I'm obviously biased since almost all info about SK I either get from English/Japanese sources.
Afaik he was pretty dovish towards Japan during his election, which goes against the decades long tradition of tit-for-tat during election between SK&Japan since "looking tough to the neighbor" win votes. I wasn't aware of any "Japan whispering in his ear" level embezzlement. He seems just more pro US, closer ties with Japan rather than "balance things between China/US-JP"
I’d say anyone seriously thinking Japan has bought out the conservatives is just as foolish as someone that seriously thinks the liberals are North Korean spies.
That said, there is a contingent of South Koreans that genuinely consider Japan a mortal military threat just biding their time and waiting to attack Korea. And that North Korea is just a merely misguided misunderstood brother that is absolutely harmless despite their sabre rattling.
I wonder what the level of journalistic independences is in KR. What their public discourse is like. How truth, and opinions are tolerated.
Seems to be something that kind of happens when someone in Korea rises to the top of political power. Remember the former president that was pretty much ousted for corruption a few years back? She had a confidant that would pull her strings.
Anyone who has dealt with Japanese bureaucracy and government at large is stifling a giggle at this idea.
Source?
Sept 3, 2024 Lee’s raising of suspicions of martial law plans isn’t baseless — just look back to 2017 https://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_national/1...
Sept 4, 2024 [News analysis] Why is Korea’s Democratic Party talking about martial law? https://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_national/1...
Sept 4, 2024 [ED] No room for martial law talk https://m.koreatimes.co.kr/pages/article.amp.asp?newsIdx=381...
Sept 5, 2024 DPK's martial law claim backfires due to lack of evidence https://m.koreatimes.co.kr/pages/article.amp.asp?newsIdx=381...
Sept 5, 2024 Martial law equals coup-d’etat: What would it mean for South Korea? https://m.koreatimes.co.kr/pages/article.amp.asp?newsIdx=381...
This AP article is written very unsympathetically towards him
On December 3, 2024, at 10:27 PM, President Yoon Seokyeol declared martial law. This declaration is illegal and constitutes a criminal act, directly violating the Constitution and other laws.
It is essentially a coup d'état.
The current political and social situation does not meet the criteria of "a time when it is necessary to respond to military needs or maintain public order in wartime or a similar national emergency" as outlined in Article 77 of the Constitution. Therefore, the emergency martial law is invalid and illegal, and the president should be held accountable. Additionally, martial law is procedurally invalid as there was no cabinet meeting, which is required by Article 2(5) of the Martial Law Act. This martial law is null and void!
It is illegal for martial law forces to enter the National Assembly. We demand the immediate lifting of martial law.
Kim Min-seok, Member of the National Assembly of the Republic of Korea
http://youtube.com/post/Ugkxb5QujtsQagPZalY1RJLx8Cd-W3gdyqO1...
Do you consider Justin Trudeau's invocation of the Emergencies Act in Canada to have been a coup?
- all political parties voted to have the martial law order revoked.
I don't know what the fallout of this will be, but the curent president of South Korea is toast. He went all in and lost big time.
On the other hand, declaration of martial law or walking armed into parliament might well be a coup attempt.
Context and intent is everything.
Korean law specifically prohibits presidential interference with the legislative branch even under martial law, a clause written in blood. The first thing Yoon did was try to lock down the legislature and arrest party leaders. This is a blatantly unconstitutional self coup attempt.
https://bsky.app/profile/antonhur.com/post/3lcfxpcpmuc24
https://bsky.app/profile/sarahjeong.bsky.social/post/3lcfxvf...
My understanding based on just finding out about this and skimming a bit:
President declared martial law to distract from some embarrassing thing
Military starts enforcing
Assembly votes to outlaw martial law
Military stands down
> Democratic Party aides are shown spraying fire extinguishers at the infiltrating army to keep them back.
I remember reading this type of minute by minute description of unfolding news on Twitter, back in the day. I'm reading it on BlueSky now. My, how times have changed.
I can't find a similar thread on X. For me X's lead post on the subject is:
> ELON MUSK HAS CHANGED THE LIKE BUTTON TO SUPPORT THE PEOPLE OF SOUTH KOREA!!
Plenty of Armchair experts on both platforms giving likely misconstrued information.
https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/Japan-South-Korea-ties/U.S....
In Israel it's common to view his genocidal use of the IOF as a way to cling to power and avoid prosecution.
Not comparable. This is a coup d'etat. Netanyahu is a corrupt politician; President Yoon is attempting to rise above politics.
You can't compare McCarthyism to Korean politics because Canada wasn't the USSR.
Had a coworker whose best friend got lost on night patrol. Another unit killed him when he didn't come up with the password of the day quick enough. The coworkers comment? "He screwed up."
Probably has something to do with the fact that Seoul is like 50 kilometers from the border, and has enough rockets pointed at them to cause unprecedented carnage. HIMARS can launch precision strikes at that range, but DPRK doesn't need precision, and has clearly committed to quantity. And they're not exactly peaceful about it: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/north-korea-fires-multipl...
It's not really "red scare stuff."
Edit: I'm not sure what I was getting at, so ignore me
2. South Korea has a bizarre large-scale "gender war" going on that extents into mainstream society. Imagine the Western online MRA/redpill/incel vs. radfem circles but as core identities in national politics.
For some reason a high-trust society has decided to become an ultra-low-trust society where trust is being eradicated all the way down to the nuclear family.
The way the "gender war" appeared was that Yoon was more popular among men, and this was reported in the international news, then Korean news reporters reported on the international news, legitimizing the story of a gender gap.
This primed Korean journalists to look for further signs of conflict between the genders, which were then amplified out of proportion by international journalists looking for a story. Korean journalists see the international stories as more trustworthy, and now they report as if there is a gender war.
There is a heavy selection bias among journalists to look for spicy gender stories, where the actual participants are the fringe of an online "movement". The Korean press club doesn't seem to understand or account for these biases. In real life there isn't much "war".
I have zero idea about SK, but ... "woke vs not woke" has become very much a core identity part in Western politics. The last US election has proven that, and what's going on here in Germany especially with Markus Söder isn't funny any more either [1], we got elections looming in about three months.
[1] https://www.zeit.de/politik/deutschland/2024-11/markus-soede...
The only info is that he said that it is to protect the democracy from north Korean supporters in the opposition, but no more details.
Does anyone know which action of the opposition triggered that? And why so suddenly? Also, might it be reasonable grounds to his claims or is he just clearly using the martian law against his political opponents?
Something a little bit scary around the world is that it looks like that bad guys are quite active and good at disrupting democracies and elections in free countries (France, us, Romania, moldovia, ...) whereas it looks like that the western world has really low influence to disrupt these countries for a political change.
What's more scary is how quick many people are to blame foreign boogeymen instead having a hard look at their own politicians and the hostile policies they have been implementing. You don't need to disrupt democracies when there is hardly anything democratic left about them.
Why x happened
What might happen next
How does this tie into bigger trends
I feel like i'm taking crazy pills. The world can't be this stupid yet it is. Subconscious social intelligence is real and it has taken a massive fucking hit recently. I've got an entertaining 60 years ahead of me. Social media has destroyed anything in the human experience outside of immediate status and gratification. I'm trying my best to insulate myself by getting into data science but I feel like I'm living on borrowed time.
> From the start [...] Mr. Yoon faced two obstacles.
> The opposition Democratic Party held on to its majority in the National Assembly and then expanded it in parliamentary elections in April, making him the first South Korean leader in decades to never have a majority in Parliament. And then there were his own dismal approval ratings.
> Mr. Yoon’s toxic relationship with opposition lawmakers — and their vehement efforts to oppose him at every turn — paralyzed his pro-business agenda for two years, hindering his efforts to cut corporate taxes, overhaul the national pension system and address housing prices.
and also
> Opposition leaders warned that Mr. Yoon was taking South Korea onto the path of “dictatorship.” In turn, members of Mr. Yoon’s party called the opposition “criminals,” and voters on the right rallied against what they called “pro-North Korean communists.”
> (Mr. Yoon echoed that language on Tuesday in his declaration of martial law, saying he was issuing it “to protect a free South Korea from the North Korean communist forces, eliminate shameless pro-North Korean and anti-state forces.”)
So basically, Mr. Yoon was unable to pass his agenda (as his party never had control of the legislative branch), and rather than continue to negotiate, he decided to impose martial law, label the opposition communists, and then ban the National Assembly from gathering (they gathered anyway).
---
[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/03/world/asia/south-korea-yo...
"He has also been dismissing calls for independent investigations into scandals involving his wife and top officials"
Well, there's a standard motive.
And, if there's two things that seems constant in conservative politics, it's that they don't want anything to change (by defintion of 'conservative'), and they do seem to be forever embroiled in accusations of corruption.
And they never look trustworthy, for what that's worth. Perhaps it is as I understand that a lifetime of being lousy to other human beings shows on one's face, in one's voice, and is evident in one's lack of happiness.
We all reap what we sow, for ill or good, and apparently the vast majority of people that seek power generally do so for selfish, greedy reasons.
The above should not be confused with values. Many people abusing power really have values against what they are doing. They have just figuring out how to convince themselves the alternatives are worse. Having values does make it somewhat easier to suppress your tendency to abuse those values, but only somewhat.
This is false and excessively cynical. There are genuinely good people who have values and live up to those values, without hypocrisy, and that doesn't mean they have "carefully suppressed" desires to do otherwise.
What you are really saying (not that you have the wherewithall to admit it) is you don't believe this can be done, and therefore no one can do it. In other words, you don't believe we can self-evolve into being better people, much less being beyond temptation to selfishness at the expense of others.
And so, by believing this, you have prevented yourself from even trying to be better, but you have only limited yourself. The rest of us are capable of evolving ourselves beyond our vices into the selfless light of compassionate service to mankind, not that it has ever been a commonly taken path.
This is why the person who does not enter the Path of Love has "eyes that do not see, ears that do not hear, and a heart that does not understand," as we have to begin our transformation to see the world (and ourselves) for what is possible. This is why the uncommitted can be fooled by the cruelly lying oppressors of mankind, as has been repeated throughout history. Those bent on selfish mischief cater to the ignorant's selfish desire for ease, no matter who else is harmed in the process. In this way they are even worse than the animals, as they use our advanced abilities to behave as mere pack animals, lacking all humanity and its essential element: compassion.
Remember "accusation of corruption" is not the same as proven corruption, but making an accusation is an overt action by someone. Many accusations are false and sometimes are even projections.
The first casualty of corruption is honesty.
Will not last. When this finish the rebloom of the societies will be massive.
Any guesses on market reactions here? Are component prices going to get worse?
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/cn38321180et
> According to South Korean law, the government must lift martial law if the majority of National Assembly demands in a vote.
> The same law also prohibits martial law command from arresting lawmakers.
> members of the National Assembly have been banned from accessing the building.
The head of the (president's) ruling People Power Party has vowed to block the (president's) declaration, describing it as "wrong".
> Currently, around 70 members of the opposition are inside the assembly, while the rest are gathering outside
> When Speaker Woo Won-shik arrives he will call for a vote to lift the martial law
> special forces soldiers are inside the assembly building. It is unclear what the soldiers are doing.
Also, military helicopters landed on the roof.
Every developed nation is barreling towards this fate. It's what end stage capitalism and 5 chaebols-in-a-trenchcoat as a government looks like.
The only thing preventing population collapse in the West is immigration. Any country that wants to maintain a particular ethnic majority is doomed.
So why is South Korea like this? Because of the demands of work, the government being beholden to the chaebols, the demands on women to both work, have children and largely be responsible for raising them without work suffering. There's a vicious cycle of entrenched misogyny and women essentially opting out of this system (ie the 4B movement).
Add all this up and you have a country that is bound for crisis after crisis. You cannot look at this current crisis without understanding the broader context.
The endless pursuit of profits will quite literally destroy a country if you let it.
How much are they paying per child? I see references to roughly $20k over 8 years. That's not "begging", that's a pittance. That probably doesn't even cover the cost of food over those 8 years.
Countries will get the babies they want when they incentivize the babies they want. Conservative politicians know this, though they have some pretty disgusting ideas about what those incentives should be. More stick than carrot IMO.
I think a world where we force women back into having no options and no prospects and no freedom and no rights just so they will produce the right colored babies is pretty abhorrent.
There is about 200 millions of africans and north of 500 millions of asians in extreme poverty who would give their left leg to move to modern democracy, if it would be feasible. Heck, they are dying by hundreds trying to cross rough seas like mediterranean.
'quite open to immigration' is most probably not what we should call it, if expectations are around 100% knowledge of language and very obscure culture and its rules right out of the box to be at least tolerated.
Problem is: what is NK doing with its army, when SK has practically died out? I mean, they could just procreate, wait and declare superior victory, instead of wasting resources on their army.
Up there with gravity and shit. I wish we could do something with this information, but alas, knowledge isnt power.
Cersei Lannister: Power is power.
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42306176.
It's not a prediction when it's history. That has been going on at least as long as the Roman Empire, yet people are still surprised it's happening today. Modern regimes didn't invent these schemes, they're reusing tried and tested methods because they're known to work because human psychology and behavioral instinct is vulnerable to the same exploits which probably will never get patched anytime soon.
The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.
We suffer with inefficiency, majority tyranny, populism, short-term-itis, inequalities, and voter apathy which promotes less qualified people.
At least we usually have peaceful conflict resolution rather than firing squads. <3
The way modern states leverage external threats to justify abusing people or waging their own external wars is fairly parallel to how the less top heavy kingdoms of the middle ages and early modern period used religion as a justification for comparable atrocities.
One of the reasons "they're oppressing and committing atrocities against some of our people who live there!" has been a perpetual casus belli against neighboring states.
If you trumpet it long enough, eventually people start believing and get mad.
Orwell being so right about governments using the constant threat of a virtual enemy has got to be one of the all time top on the money predictions ever.
https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-enemies-from-within-...
The warring US tribes certainly made an effort to associate their internal enemy with these (Democrats insinuating Republican subversion by Russians, Republicans insinuating Democrat sympathies with China and Iran). Arguably, this did not really catch and the majority of people are more preoccupied with their internal outgroup, which suggests that the external-enemy strategy is currently falling flat in the US. You could make a better case for it being in place in various European countries.
Has China been accepted as a "real" enemy? To me, China is the main virtual enemy that politicians trout out to create fear and distraction.
Objectively, the state-promoted bogeymen in the USA are consistently Iran, China, DPRK, and increasingly Russia.
I just spent a month in China and the disparity between what we are told in western media and what is actually going on is substantial, but not in the ways I expected.
And often it's the very people and organizations supported and lauded as allies and/or freedom fighters and lauded a few years earlier (like Shaddam or the Taliban).
* Trans people
* "The enemy within" or "the deep state" (i.e. their political opponents)
* The "woke left"
Knowledge is a necessary, but not sufficient component of power
Or in other words observability is a necessary, but not sufficient component of optimization.
There's nothing virtual about North Korea ...
Or is it that when the politics isn't US politics, HN readers can be more emotionally detached and treat it as "interesting"?
"Yoon — whose approval rating has dipped in recent months — has struggled to push his agenda against an opposition-controlled parliament since taking office in 2022.
Yoon’s conservative People Power Party had been locked in an impasse with the liberal opposition Democratic Party over next year’s budget bill. He has also been dismissing calls for independent investigations into scandals involving his wife and top officials, drawing quick, strong rebukes from his political rivals."
See the same patterns. You can tell which side they want to paint in a bad light and what do you know it's the conservative side.
On the one hand, a sitting president has conducted a coup d'etat condemned by his own party, on flimsy grounds and apparently with limited public support.
On the other hand, he's not left wing so it's clear that the only possible problem with his military coup is that journalists are insufficiently favourably disposed to it.
EDIT: Not mentioning Trump is my mistake.
You're welcome to express your views thoughtfully and substantively, of course—just not to do this sort of drive-by inflammatory thing, which is tedious and evokes worse from others.
If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/12/03/south-kore...
For the South Korean population, the proper way to deal with this is a general strike. Do not work unless in absolutely vital sectors.
Koreans here say that this is domestic. Hopefully it is and will be over soon. It is odd however that the U.S. government escalates in Ukraine, there is a new color revolution in Georgia (the country adjacent to Russia), the Syrian rebels launch a major attack and now this.
All of this "coincidentally" makes Trump's peace efforts more difficult. Trump will have to clean up all the fires started by this incompetent or malicious administration.
Escalating in Ukraine (against Russia), launching a major attack against Assad (a Russian ally) and an upcoming revolution against an (allegedly) pro-Russian government in Georgia all seem to fit into a pattern. This SK-thing seems to divide from that pattern and I’d say it is domestic until proven otherwise. If anything, those other small stabs against Russia will aid negotiations as Russias global influence will be weakened by multiple small fires, some of which western allies can put out more easily.