Apart from privacy concerns of your data being used or sold by the car vendor, government outreach is also a concern. There was a bill announced in the US for all new cars to be equipped with "driver impairment" tech which was called a "kill switch". Media rushed to say it's not really a kill switch, just "sensors or cameras to monitor the driver’s behaviors, head or eye movements" and "block the driver from operating the vehicle". So... a kill switch. https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-402773429497
Anyway, I'm staying with my old gas Honda until it dies which is probably never with proper maintenance and eventually restoration. I'll never go electric. Modern cars are just smartphones on wheels at this point, and smartphones are just spying devices at this point.
Privacy Nightmare on Wheels: Every Car Brand Reviewed by Mozilla https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37443644
(edit I see I'm not the first to link this in this thread)
https://www.subaru.com/support/consumer-privacy.html
If you don't live in one of the states mentioned in the first paragraph, expect this to take a very long time. For me it took 6 months.
I'm very glad I've put in the time to learn how to work on cars because I have zero interest in the tech direction of modern vehicles.
It's not my daily driver, but I would absolutely love to one day get another one as a project car - one that's not in such good condition that I'd feel bad removing the engine - and drop an electric motor in it. That likely _would_ become my daily driver. The car's incredibly well made, and a joy to drive.
One conversion I want to attempt, but am unfortunately unlikely to, is an electric rear wheel drive.
Front wheel can remain gas with transmission. Add more generating current capacity, and have that dumped into the rear drive system batteries.
With my current car, the V6 gets very good economy at speed, and poor economy in town or in traffic.
An assist from the rear can tackle the poor economy cases nicely, leaving the rest to the gas engine.
Depending on battery capacity, I suppose it could do most in town driving at say 40 and below.
I'm with you. Our daily drivers are 2011 Mitsu, 96 Toyota, 92 Buick and a 63 Dart. Also a 61 Sunliner for when it's not-summer.
The Mitsu is unfortunately drive-by-wire; I mostly avoid it.
Still green, unlike gas, but restricts the surface area of issues related to modern cars
I would have stuck with my 2003 Honda Accord too, except that some woman, probably talking or texting on her cell, slammed into me while I was stopped at a light, totaling my car and damaging 3 others. I got $8K for my car after arguing with the insurance company, and paid $28K for a 3 y/o replacement.
The fine for texting while driving in Kentucky is $25.
GPS is for obvious reasons tracking. But these don’t look like patrol cars so it’s out of my wheel house.
All. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECall:
“eCall (an abbreviation of "emergency call") is an initiative by the European Union, intended to bring rapid assistance to motorists involved in a collision anywhere within the European Union. The aim is for all new cars to incorporate a system that automatically contacts the emergency services in the event of a serious accident, sending location and sensor information. eCall was made mandatory in all new cars approved for manufacture within the European Union as of April 2018.”
Safety features and fuel economy are night and day when comparing a 5 year old car and a 30 year old one, but between the privacy issues and inability to diagnose or fix a new car I just can't do it.
I bought an 80s model truck that sat in a garage for over a decade and has 50k original miles on it. I'm still chasing down a couple gremlins in the system, but its nice to be able to work on it myself. Bonus that it may not be driving perfectly right now but its happy keep on chugging, even if a sensor is bad or I get an occasional code for running lean.
If you lookup the repair procedure for the cellular unit you will have found the way to disable it.
So basically everyone with a smartphone? I'm not sure if it's really worse if the car has its own GPS and cell connectivity. How many people turn off their phone or leave it at home? And you can buy other people's location data, so...
Tbh considering the accuracy of modern triangulation technology... anyone with a cellphone, period.
Not sure your analogy fits.
Some have a fuse you can pull for the modem, without disabling anything else. Others you can pull the antenna, and add a resistor instead.
let's say somebody else said "There SHOULD be an expectation of privacy from the authorities when operating a motor vehicles on public roads on which you need a license to drive"
Is there some reason I should side with you over them, or just your opinion? If the courts decided that there was an expectation of privacy on public roads, would you agitate to change the law so there wasn't?
Do you not consider reasonable to have an expectation of innocence when going about your business?
So, any car with OnStar apparently already has a remote kill switch. Perhaps they needed the owner’s permission first?
Do you think preserving your privacy in this one aspect of your life will have a greater net benefit to your life than driving a safer car (under the assumption that newer cars are safer)? Especially given that presumably there's still data being collected on you even in an old car (cameras on the road, other people's cars, your phone, etc).
By analogy, what's the marginal benefit of not eating any food in packaged in plastic if your water supply is full of (unavoidable, for the sake of argument) microplastics? Is doing so worth the cost (no food for you, buddy!)?
I guess this is just another round of being principled duking it out with pragmatism.
I believe the name of that module is DCM
You can disable some models, but I have my doubts.
In rentals you can forget about it.
Unplugging my phone and the location snapped back to he correct place. Seems that in CarPlay an iPhone will believe what the car says about position, and when it’s wrong, tough.
I take it that you need a car (which is true for many) and also need a computer (also true for many).
What precautions do you take in computing given that you use a computer that is connected to the Internet ?
The former (i.e. computer) has an unknowable supply chain with blobs of code that you don't vet yourself, and the latter (the Internet) has overtly become a surveillance system.
I plan on driving it a very long time. Same reasons.
It also predates the big infotainment systems. I really dislike the big screen and many functions turned into touch controls dangerous to use in motion.
Finally, it is easy to service. I will do that myself as long as I am able.
Given that there are hundreds of deaths each year due to inattention, it'd be almost irresponsible not to look into it.
But a lot of people won't like where that leads.
You're selectively quoting in a way that misrepresents the article.
The post the article quotes:
> “Joe Biden signed a bill that would give law enforcement access to a ‘kill switch’ that will be attached to ALL new cars in 2026,” read several posts shared widely on Twitter and Facebook.
The actual functionality:
> In either case, if a driver is found to be impaired [by automated monitoring within the car], the car might employ a warning message, block the driver from operating the vehicle, or if the vehicle is already in motion, direct it to a safe stop or automated ride home.
> None of the technologies currently in development would notify law enforcement of the data collected inside vehicles or give government agencies remote control of vehicles, according to Jeffrey Michael, a researcher at Johns Hopkins University’s Center for Injury Research and Policy.
The car has an automatic system which can prevent the driver from operating it, but no one outside the car can trigger that system, which is clearly what the "kill switch" posts were claiming.
That assumes that the feature is implemented securely, which is hardly guaranteed. Would you bet a large sum that it wasn't exploitable? I wouldn't.
Just not the sort of kill switch that someone (who?) sometime (when?) described, and such description is one that you've neither quoted or given.
It's a vehicle that can easily kill other people. It often does. It's reasonable to require drivers to be in good enough shape before trusting them with lives of random innocent people.
If so, this is a good fit for a class action.
Complete with non-replaceable batteries.
It's not a kill switch, the link you provided explains that it's not a kill switch, yet you still call it a kill switch.
If you were paying any attention, then you know that idiots online were portraying this as the cops being able to remotely disable your car at their will.
In fact, the requirement is for the vehicle to pull safely to the side of the road when it detects an impaired driver (DUI or medical emergency). There is no external initiation, it's entirely self-contained.
It's not a kill switch. It's not remotely like a kill switch.
Having personally been within minutes of crashes involving a drunk driver who blew a stop sign and smashed into a fire hydrant, and another driver experiencing a health emergency who crashed through an intersection at 80mph in a 25mph zone, I say bring it on. Ignore the Rogan-sphere FUD peddlers.
In addition to de-banking, they can also de-car you.
Exactly. I saw a clip of an elon musk interview where he was asked if tesla would ever build a smartphone. I had to chuckle and think to myself, they already do. It just doesn't fit in your pocket, has wheels and actually tries to kill you physically.
The funny thing is that's what cars do to other people because we don't have enough monitoring.
My e-bike is limited to 20 because "safety". Your car should be to.
Complain about power wheels, because you’re comparing two things that have nothing to do with each other.
They're good people at heart. Don't misunderstand them.
That seems like the next-most-interesting question now that you've determined what the device is. Possibly followed closely by "can I use that free-to-me data in a fun way that might teach the people who installed the SIM to deactivate their devices when they sell them?"
i.e. Could you send and receive enough on the connection using that SIM to cost them enough money that they'd notice it?
Now it could be that the people who built this tracking device are too small scale to negotiate a deal, or just don't know this, but my guess is that (a) the SIM is not in a physical format which can be removed and fitted in a different device; and (b) it is connected to a private APN which is not connected to the Internet.
BTW, if you look up the Wikipedia article, bear in mind that it is a bit inaccurate - for instance it refers to an APN as being a gateway to the Internet, which is not always true. I'll correct it some time.
Here’s an example from a few years ago: https://scootertalk.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1370
I'd personally be equal parts creeped out and curious about the hardware if that showed up on a car I bought. If it's a former fleet vehicle, its probably deactivated.
The particular sound described makes me think of older pre-lte stuff, which in my part of the world was abandoned and became useless a couple years ago.
But you're right, I don't think I've heard my phone cause that sound since I switched to an LTE phone.
So you're probably using the connection in violation of the wishes of the responsible party, but it was not clear to me exactly how illegal that would be? Like I'm sure they could charge you with a crime but I have no idea what it would be.
Doubt it. You'd be using a device you bought and now own, that didn't come with any kind of agreement/contract/etc to limit your usage. :)
I bought an aparment 3.5 years ago and it had an alarm installed.
I called the security company to transfer ownership but that couldn’t be done without authorisation from the previous owner, which probably makes sense. The problem is, they were unreachable, and I was living on a house that I now owned, and which had cameras the previous owner could take pics from at any time.
My patience was running out so I threatened the security company with removing the cameras installed in the house I owned, but I was told that they owned them even if they were inside my house.
The company on the contract voluntarily gave the SIM to OP.
I’m pretty sure (not 100%) that new cars with contactless keys have this feature by default. You can get out (with the key) and leave it running, but the shifter won’t work until you return with the key.
So no need to worry about that feature on Fusions... they don't sell them anymore. Nor Chevies, Buicks, Oldsmobile is long gone, no more Dodges or Chryslers... nothing.
It has been a very long time for Ford now. I was heartbroken when they discontinued the Fiesta/Focus ST/RS trims in the US, those were peak car models for me.
Story: when I was buying my Fiesta ST I did all the usual dealership prep tactics to avoid getting overcharged. I researched the dealership cost and all that jazz, and told the salesperson I have that much + a few hundred bucks which seemed a fair offer. They immediately accepted it and got me out the door with that car within the hour; I got the sense they were not selling well even back then.
Check Chevy and Dodge too. Chevy has one sedan and Dodge is still selling 2023 model years to avoid CAFE.
- Headline "My new car has a mysterious and undocumented switch".
No, this is not a new car. This is a used car. Finding undocumented switches in a vehicle someone else owned is very common. People modify their cars all the time. Finding an undocumented switch in a new car would be wild.
- "And that’s how the search comes to an end. After a bit of perseverance I figured out what it is."
You literally took your car to a dealership, and the mechanic told you what it was. This ENTIRE ARTICLE boils down to this statement. You did the bare minimum to investigate what it was: took the panel off and confirmed that the wires went __somewhere__.
How does this get upvoted so heavily on Hacker News?
Just that it's YOUR new car.
Some older temperature dials actually mixed the cold A/C air with the hot air from the heater core to make those in-between temperatures.
Or maybe just ownership of the car is enough? I kind of suspect it might not be though.
(When did crazy things like this start becoming a real thing?)
However, because the author lives in a country covered by the GDPR, they have a right to receive, correct, and adjust the personal information collected on them. No need to capture the data transmitted by the system, the company is legally obligated to hand over every bit of personal information they have on the author, including any pseudomised information, in a format that's machine readable.
In theory you'd be liable for racking up a bill if you use their SIM card, but I doubt it still works.
A fun read related to this: "Privacy Nightmare on Wheels: Every Car Brand Reviewed by Mozilla - Including Ford, Volkswagen and Toyota - Flunks Privacy Test"
https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/blog/privacy-nightmare-on-...
Small excerpt:
>The very worst offender is Nissan. The Japanese car manufacturer admits in their privacy policy to collecting a wide range of information, including sexual activity, health diagnosis data, and genetic data — but doesn’t specify how. They say they can share and sell consumers’ “preferences, characteristics, psychological trends, predispositions, behavior, attitudes, intelligence, abilities, and aptitudes” to data brokers, law enforcement, and other third parties.
The phenomena you're describing isn't about caring.
You're describing a "trade" in the same way mobsters and conmen do.
Made me wonder how many other shops were doing the same thing...even 20 years ago.
One dealer tried to sell one to me to the tune of 600$/year. That told me that they were butchering the wiring on every brand new car that hit their lot. I walked out without a deal.
In most cases, Dealers don't own the cars on their lot; they are financed either by a manufacturer's financing arm e.x. FMCC, Ally (sorta), NMAC, or an independent e.x. Santander.
Oftentimes, the Tracking device is part of the finance company's agreement, if not part of keeping insurance costs down.
Of course, dealers are more than happy to try to charge you for -not- removing it...
There's no need for butchering. All that's needed is constant 12V. Maybe an aux 12V if you need to know when the car is on. At most, they may have installed a relay to cut the fuel pump or ignition, which is no more invasive than a standard alarm installation.
Usually when you stop paying for that subscription, the line gets deactivated.
So probably nobody is getting that GPS trace.
I've been dabbling in this space and I'm having a hard time finding any data service under about $2 - $4 per month.
It is funny because that Opel IS a Peugeot.
Same group (Stellantis), and same mechanicals as the contemporary Peugeot 208 with only minor aesthetics and branding modifications.
Thankfully Toyota did most of the engineering, which I think is the main reason ours is still running after minimal maintenance with > 100,000 miles on it.
When one showed up at a good local dealership, I bought it. I barely looked at it first.
Unusual? Probably. But those were unusual times.
Anyway, it had a small metal toggle switch mounted under the dash. The old-school kind, with the metal tag painted with red and black On/Off silkscreen.
I never did figure out what it was for.
I had a peek more than once (of course) to see what it connected to, but it was just a Siamese pair of wires that drifted off to unseeable areas.
The only other modification I could find was a very neatly-installed remote starter.
And that remote start box did have a switch input (for valet mode, whatever that means), but it was not connected.
(It all got ruined in a crash a couple of months ago and the purpose of the switch shall thus remain a mystery.)
Most people don't care about their privacy. Even if they do, the majority of that group don't care enough to give up the conveniences they get in exchange for it. This leaves a small group of people to fight for protecting their privacy, as well as of those who don't care about it. This is an uphill battle against trillion-dollar corporations and the governments they're in symbiosis with.
Some governments do make an effort, but it's too little, and too ineffective to matter in the grand scheme of things. I wouldn't expect this to improve, and can easily see it getting worse. I hope I'm just being pessimistic.
Around here, such a button in this place would be for the 20 000 lumen extralights. Typically for cars with xenon headlights, like this Opel, the extralights are powered via a relay that takes control signal from a can-bus adapter that extracts the high beam signal, via a manual switch like this.
The switch basically does nothing, but tha state of it is logged in the tracking system along with the routes the car takes. In many EU countries you tax differently for personal use, so the switch is sort of important for tax reasons.
I have one of those buttons and readers from a project kit from a long time ago, and it's not magnetic.
That must be new https://www.reuters.com/technology/tesla-workers-shared-sens...
Unless the whole thing is disabled in absence of a registered fleet tracker key on the magnet on the right.
I mostly drive old 90s enthusiast cars, and I have had my fair share of undocumented switches.
The most surprising to date was in a Nissan Silvia, from 1989. Sometimes it wouldn't crank off the key, given the solution chosen it must have been a wiring issue. Instead of fixing that wiring, the previous owner had directly wired power to the starter via a "missle switch" style switch, and instead of mounting it anywhere remotely useful, it was just spliced into the loom and sat on top of the rocker cover in the engine bay.
So if it wouldn't start, I had to leave the key at "on", hop out of the car, bump that switch and then it would start. Obviously standing in front of a manual car while starting it is the dumbest thing next to wiring your starter to a switch in the engine bay. Fortunately I never ran myself over.
Another one, I will keep short, a 97 Skyline would only light up ready to start 1/4 times. Seemingly randomly, on key bump. Turns out the flash memory for the fuel map had corrupted, and depending on the temperature and a bit of randomness from the sensors, it would only hit a corrupted cell occasionally. It got worse and worse as more of the table corrupted, until it would only start say 1/60 key bumps.
It was a dodgy power wire causing the corruption, and fixing that plus reflashing the tune fixed the issue.
I often put my phone into Airplane Mode when I'm not actively using it, and I prefer to avoid the distraction of a phone call while I'm driving because I'm a terrible multitasker. If it's too easy for me to receive an incoming phone call when I'm driving then I'm too likely to do it when I really shouldn't.
In general I want as little data collection and reporting capability built into my car as is reasonably possible. I wish more auto manufacturers would make it as easy as Toyota did with the GRC -- and a few other of models, as I've heard -- to disable telemetry.
https://www.atrack.com.tw/en/product/1-wire-ibutton-tag-read...
If you have a flipper zero, maybe you could poke at it.
I have seen them on Home Depot forklifts. Lift operators have the iButton key fob to allow the machine to stay operating. Years ago I was with a guy who though the could load our truck himself, started the lift, alarm goes off and it shuts down.
Used cars can have all sorts of crap in them from mods or whatever. And who knows what abuse a used car has seen but this car was fleet maintained and GPS monitored so likely a good used car.
Car makers: For some people your new cars can't compete with your 20+ year old used cars! Right, 20 years of changes resulted in big steps backwards.
In general avoid obscurity and complexity. And instead emphasize the KISS principle -- keep it simple silly!
Suggestion: For SUV models with a door in the back, some have just one door and a hinge at the top. Instead have the long common two doors, one with the hinge high and the other, low. That way, can actually have a "tailgate picnic party" and reduce the number of times a head hits the door.
And there is a problem: Please return to the old round headlights, two for low beam and two more for high beam. They gave better light, didn't have a plastic covering that got cloudy, didn't have the current obscure way to replace a light that failed, and were easy to understand and aim and cheap to replace.
I know, the old lights were cheap. But also remember, they were better!!!
But it was mine and my wife’s first car and we have a lot of happy memories of places that car has taken us to. Aside from the odd flat tyre and a new clutch and timing belt over the last 8 years, it’s never let us down (it was largely engineered by Toyota which certainly helps there). We got a new car at the start of this year so it doesn’t see much use now, but we’ve kept it as a second car because it’s so damn cheap to run and maintain.
I have an almost identical looking switch in my Mustang (which I imported from America) and it does exactly that - turns the fog lights on and off :)
Probably. Obviously this assumes competence, attention to detail, and responsibility with corporate funds.
I kept accidentally toggling it off with my knee, so I replaced it with a nice flush push button. I haven't tracked the car yet though.
I never touched an undocumented button again, nor understood why someone would add a button that exploded the car when clicked.
The only thing I find odd is that the dealer didn't notice this and remove or plug it.
It was about a mysterious box. Turned out to be some kind of remote disabler.
I found the title a bit misleading in that regard.
After reading post: Oh. That makes me wonder how many second hand cars are driving around with similar features?
At 101hp, I am sure noisy, but not thrilling.
You mean your phone?
I disagree: after failing to figure out what it was, you asked for help and somebody else figured out what it was.
