STARLINK intermittently tries to phone home by hitting 3G towers.
Now that 3G is shutting down, the digital communications module (DCM) gets stuck in an infinite loop of
1. Phone home, expending battery charge 2. Fail, because 3G doesn't work anymore 3. Go back to step 1
This effectively remotely drains the battery of every Subaru Outback built between 2015 and 2020.
Even if you drive your car every day, its battery will die and you won't be able to start it.
Other models are probably affected, too.
There was a class action lawsuit. But this is a pretty egregious engineering oversight, given they were still producing defective cars in 2020, hardly two years before 3G flipped off.
Will a brand ever produce a reliable, mechanical car? Why should 3G towers have anything to do with my car being able to start?
Discussion would then lead to what to do about it, and busy-waiting in a loop trying to contact cell towers again and again would certainly not be a solution.
But can a corporation do this? Apparently not. I honestly wonder if designers are actively discouraged from caring about anything beyond the projected life of a product, because it could negatively impact later sales.
One time I bought a car and the person trying to scare me into purchasing a warrantee told me that there were "60 computers" in like a 2015 Hyundai Elantra, which I understood to mean ICs, but that still seemed like an excessive amount and a product of commoditizing every part of a car.
It reminds me of the "Can LLMs think?" comments. Now I'm left wondering what other "classes of reasoning" are impossible for corporate entities, what they may be blind to simply due to their structure.
You and your friends in the garage are nimble and hard working, thinking of some way to make it, but at some point a company crosses a transition line and stops being capable of autonomous thought and becomes a machine both greater and lesser than any human.
I would hazard a guess that this transition happens at the point where the company would continue to operate even if all of the founders suddenly died.
Those people are not in management.
But it's quite easy to set timers to attempt things at regular intervals, rather than in an infinite loop until they succeed.
One attempt every 5 seconds (assuming a 5-second timeout for the request) is 17,280 attempts a day. One attempt every 5 minutes is 288 attempts a day. One attempt every 15 minutes is 96 attempts a day.
A simple repeating timer is a fantastic solution.
Does the car need to always send telemetry immediately? Can there be a 15-minute latency? If so, just put that on a timer and enjoy 99.4% power savings for offline cars, with basically the same quality of telemetry when they're online.
But what if a car needs to send telemetry at a given moment? Just move up the next timer function call.
But what if I want to get telemetry when the 3G signal is intermittent and briefly available? Just call the function once the 3G signal is available. Do this with a separate cool-down for this behavior.
But what if I need telemetry every second? Just dump all telemetry events into a buffer between successful sends, slap a timestamp on those events, and you can now send data for the past X hours all at once. Even from the black spots.
There are so many options (even less fancy than exp back-off), but this was probably built by a junior programmer without any support network. This feels like a very common lack-of-experience mistake that would be caught in code review if the reviewer cared.
Not once has the battery died after that, and it has been ~3 years. With the OEM starlink head unit, we would need to jump start every single week.
Needless to say, Subaru’s lack of willingness to compensate us lost them a customer for life.
Do you mean the key? Otherwise how are you moving the battery?
- install small solar panel behind back window. That will trickle charge battery, and will counter ballance drain
- hard switch off on battery, disconnect battery everytime car is not used for couple of days (weekend).
That said, for subaru it seems that pulling the DCM fuse seems to stop the drain: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37973829
Doesn't this reset the emissions computer settings after some interval?
Not to mention any radio presets.
To be clear, I'm asking more than anything as I have very little car knowledge but to me that seems like a more preferable solution long term than frequently having to physically disconnect your car battery.
Then keep coming back to get the battery replaced when it "fails to hold charge".
If every owner did that it would end up like the region restriction in DVD players.
i.e. The retailers would force the manufactures to turn it off because they don't want to deal with the cost of fixing an artificial problem.
Oh and I would start posting to car websites and forums about how unreliable my car was. Marketing teams do care about getting that reputation.
There is no money in it for them, and you are wasting valuable time. You can fix the problem yourself by getting the head unit replaced with any CarPlay/androud audio one at a car stereo shop for $1,500 and move on with your life.
Where did this happen? Some players can be unlocked and others are multi-region, but to this day DVD players are still region-locked, are they not?
When the big supermarkets were still selling DVD players they used to sell them region unlocked because people would return them as faulty if they didn't.
If you go to some where like The Range they still sell DVD players and they're all sold as "multi-region" as far as I can see:
https://www.therange.co.uk/technology-and-appliances/smart-h...
Another commenter speculated that when you're out of service, the software correctly identifies that there is no tower to connect to and stops trying. But when you're in service, the code repeatedly tries to do the 3G handshake because it can see a valid tower.
One can only hope that "smart" will have very bad associations in the future (for the general public).
Ask any tow truck driver.
Edit: Cool, apparently you've completely changed your comment. No worries, it happens. The original comment read something like "I don't believe this, a 15 minute drive is more than sufficient to recharge my battery."
Edit: Shit, my bad, thank you @clippy, this is the second time I've made this mistake in as many days.
It seems much more likely that you intended to respond to another post[0] and misclicked.
For the sake of infinite growth, many lines have been crossed and many decisions that make no sense if not looked through the lens of money have been made.
I think companies will start doing truly unethical things in the pursuit of this in the future. What if the dashboard could show ads before the car starts? It’s just a second of your time. What if a gas station network like Circle K could sponsor your car so it tells you to get a specific type of gasoline? Why not subscription for “optional” safety features that were standard? Why not a way to remotely disable cars with a warning light on the dash “for your own safety” until they visit a certified dealer? Why not coded car parts so the customer gets a “genuine product” and doesn’t “accidentally” install a cheaper generic counterpart? Why not pay as you go features instead of paying upfront? Why not track places you drive to with your car, the conversations you have in it, the people you call, and whether you drive with your wife and/or kids for behavioural advertising elsewhere? What about an eco mode subscription that saves you money when compared to not buying it, despite that it is always free with cars today?
Maybe we could also disable some people’s cars to align with certain political demographics and identities, like we cancel, deplatform, and get people fired for slights online now? Could that paint us in a positive light in certain demographics? One client lost for a thousand gained!
Maybe an auto-911 crash detection subscription? You wouldn’t want to be the mother whose kid dies in a car crash so you’d save $19.99 a month, would you? Anything if it moves more cars or at a higher marginal revenue, right?
And let’s not forget marginal costs - what could be cheaper? Maybe some parts are too durable. A lot of things could be digital - break lines, steering, the accelerator, door locks, seat belt mechanisms, mirrors and so on. And we could save doubly by outsourcing all this work to the cheapest bidder, whether they specialize in automotive safety or web design.
Anything for the sake of growth. And it’s coming. Sooner or later, there won’t be a company in the auto industry providing appealing returns unless they charge their users more, exploit them more, or save up for a nicer dividend by cutting some corners. Not today, not this year, maybe not in the immediate future. But this is the natural conclusion of the flavor of capitalism we do.
I don’t blame capitalism for everything. It’s good for a lot of things. But it totally fails humanity when large corporations are involved. We should change it before a bunch of our industries collapse under their self-destructive behaviors driven by greed. Because right now, a good investment strategy is to constantly keep investing in companies who irreparably harm themselves and their customers long-term for a quick buck. You just need to build your portfolio of these and dump them once their sell-out is over. And this makes money. An investor would be unwise not to pick a money-making strategy.
It is in everyone’s best capitalistic interest to exploit others to the max. And when all that could be exploited is, well… no one managing companies thinks about this. The investors want returns now, all the time. The executives know how to sell-out for this and golden-parachute into the next company to do it all again. The employees are laid off and customers are mistreated, but hey - capitalism is to acquire capital. It’s not called moralism.
>Maybe we could also disable some people’s cars to align with certain political demographics and identities, like we cancel, deplatform, and get people fired for slights online now? Could that paint us in a positive light in certain demographics? One client lost for a thousand gained!
All them can be theoretically done today. If companies are really chasing after "infinite growth", why are they leaving money on the table by not implementing those things?
The answer is obvious. There's nothing stopping them from making things arbitrarily shitty, but they don't because consumers will hate it and switch to a competitor that doesn't have those things.
>Maybe an auto-911 crash detection subscription? You wouldn’t want to be the mother whose kid dies in a car crash so you’d save $19.99 a month, would you? Anything if it moves more cars or at a higher marginal revenue, right?
Isn't this already a thing today? I think GM pioneered it with OnStar. I don't think there's even a car that does auto-911 today for free.
Ford! The SYNC system has had 911 Assist since the beginning of SYNC in the late 2000s. It uses your paired Bluetooth phone to call 911 in the event of an accident and plays an audio announcement to 911 based on vehicle information, then allows them to open the mic to the cabin.
> The answer is obvious. There's nothing stopping them from making things arbitrarily shitty
Two things to say about this: one, the laws of physics are stopping them, because developer time is limited. Two - there may be better ways to deliver growth right now, but over time there will be fewer such options.
> Isn't this already a thing today? I think GM pioneered it with OnStar. I don't think there's even a car that does auto-911 today for free.
So I guess then consumers aren't really stopping them.
> they don't because consumers will hate it and switch to a competitor that doesn't have those things.
Investors are not emotionally attached to a company, they will switch over to the ones delivering financial results this quarter. If that comes with consumer relations being irreparably damaged, does it concern an investor? They'll just hop to another company in the industry next. I said that this is an industry problem, and I meant it. It's not just one car manufacturer doing this, it's all being pushed towards doing it by the same force.
I think a lot of people have never traded even stocks in their lives and they don't see this part of it. Market-dominating companies about to enshittify their products are cash cows. And if they enshittify so much that they fall off the market, in a healthy market with many companies such as automotive, there will always be a company forced to enshittify to prop up its stock. It's not even just about sourcing investment - the net worth of the c-suite if often tied to the stock and they aren't looking to cash out when it's down.
Regardless, the overall effect is slowly making the whole industry hostile to the consumer. This is like private health insurance or life insurance - go ahead, switch to one that doesn't charge you a premium for your preexisting condition. And get your employer to switch. Not so easy when the entire market is guided by the same incentives that work against you, is it?
2016-18MY Legacy/Outback 2016-18MY Impreza 2016-18MY Crosstrek 2016-18MY Forester 2017-18MY WRX
See https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2021/MC-10189606-0001.pdf for details. And, yes, Subaru is reimbursing dealers for this work.
BMW modules only supported 3G (they were older though).
Anything could support the minimum needed to connect to an LTE network with the right software update, but modem chipset makers don't make any money rewriting old firmware for old chipsets, so they refuse to rewrite the firmware to support lte.
It's just sad because I bought a Subaru because it's supposed to be a reliable, outdoor adventure car. To see it fail this way is just sad.
Which is precisely when keeping a working battery is most important, since you can't call for help, being in an area without cell coverage!
https://www.tsbsearch.com/Subaru/WQZ-61R
It mentions a "3G Sunset Update".
A further search for "3G Sunset" turned up a few TSBs that apply to various Subaru models and years.
You can search for TSBs here: https://www.tsbsearch.com/Subaru
- Subaru has a fix for this issue.
- Subaru's fix has dealerships use proprietary software to put the DCM module into "factory mode" (suspended).
- It will also have dealerships physically disconnect the Starlink-related buttons (e.g. SOS), because if they're pushed it will "wake up" the DCM.
- There is no assurance the DCM won't wake up again on its own (it has its own backup battery which can fail).
- Getting dealerships to conduct the above fix is a giant pain in the butt, and they'll charge you hundreds of dollars. Few customers have even got that far, most just get an expensive "diagnostics" bill with absolutely nothing to show for it. Most won't do the repair unless you can "prove" a problem, even though it is more work to prove the problem than to proactively conduct the repair.
- Subaru won't release the software, so you can do it yourself.
Therefore, lawyers.
Everything I've read online about the issue points to the STARLINK system, and the common wisdom in this thread and elsewhere is to pull the DCM fuse. Unfortunately, my Forester has no such fuse, so I'm at a loss what to do with my car.
It's so frustrating, because my wife has a Subaru Crosstrek of the same year that has never had a battery problem, even with the OEM battery. She has a base model without any additional "upgraded" electronics, so that's the likely culprit in my case. I'm currently on my third or fourth higher CCA battery and had to jump it again a few days ago.
I haven't taken my car to the dealer for the parasitic drain issue, but previously tried to get dealership service for an unrelated entertainment system issue related to USB media playback freezing up the entertainment system. That fix was unsuccessful, and I have no faith in Subaru mechanics being able to diagnose and fix a potentially more nebulous battery drain issue. It doesn't help that the dealership is now 45 minutes away, so I'm not interested in wasting even more time on a hit and miss solution.
Ironically, I bought Subaru because reliability was my number one concern when purchasing a vehicle, and I'm not sure I would do that again.
Seemed like a parasitic draw but pulling fuses and using a multimeter verified idle draw at 30 milliamps which is within spec. If you find high like a few hundred milliamps you can start pulling fuses to narrow down offending item.
In the end it was a bad a battery, but was difficult to get the warranty replacement because it could be charged and work again so long as you ran it every day.
It's relatively easy to verify parasitic draw and make sure it's in that 30 milliamp range, with even a cheap multimeter by disconnecting negative and running through multimeter. Tricky part with modern cars is getting it to go fully to sleep, anything can trigger wake up (like opening the door) and it can take a few minutes for it to fully sleep to idle draw.
One such Camry in our extended family was parked for a few months and the battery failed. We got an expensive OEM replacement and tried to make sure we drove the car every week or two. It failed again in just under three years. Meanwhile, we have an entry-level Audi that also often gets only a short local trip every week or two. It is still on its original AGM battery after 6 years, and this one has to actually start the ICE.
So, I am disappointed to find that Toyota engineers could not be bothered to apply whatever basic power management logic the Audi folks did to protect the battery. Worse, the Camry has this big NiMH traction battery, and I would have imagined some clever backup strategy to infrequently top-up the 12V battery if parked too long, so it would be reliable.
In the end, I gave up and installed an old-school battery cut-out switch, so we can just disconnect the 12V battery if not planning to use the Camry for more than a few days. Every time I operate it, I'm giving the Toyota engineers a rude hand gesture in my mind.
LTE and 5G are supposed to be better able to share spectrum, to the point where they can share the control channel, and multiplex the data channels with either encoding, but 2g and 3g can't do that, so you have to dedicate at least minimum sized blocks.
Running one min block on 2G does wonderful things for ensuring access, but it's expensive in spectrum, especially if each network needs to do it. (Because cooperating between networks is really only a thing if mandated, or out in rural areas where there's little demand)
Also, that free upgrade for current Starlink subscribers expired two years ago.
Anyway, I didn’t upgrade (have an aftermarket radio), and my battery works just fine. In fact, the car stayed parked for two months in the Texas summer, and started just fine.
I only buy used cars, and past the ~7-year-old range used Toyotas routinely cost about twice as much as any other brand for equivalent model/mileage/condition. Yet I still pay the markup because every time I work on mine I am astonished by the fanatical obsession they have with reliability. I'm sure this value retention is reflected in the profit margin on new Toyotas.
How do you figure this? Seems unlikely to me that a 15 min drive would not bring a car batter drained my occasional failed phone connections back to full
The thing drains your battery precipitously.
The solution is to put a carabiner or similar in the latch so it believes it’s closed.
Completely ridiculous issue with an otherwise great vehicle.
https://www.motortrend.com/uploads/sites/5/2016/02/2016-Suba...
It’s understandable for them to be checking for the hatch to be down, given that both your brake lights and reverse lights are on the hatch and only seen if down.
The brake lights on a 2016 Outback are not on the hatch. They’re on the portion of the lamp permanently affixed to the vehicle.
Also, why would checking if the hatch is open or closed completely drain the battery in a couple of hours? Not understandable to me.
Better to go with one which pairs with your phone if you even need this functionality.
I work with batteries in the EV industry (not inside cars, though, but lithium-iron-phosphate), and the list of planned improvements is not short.
There’s a gap between when a product is ready to be used and when most of the known optimisations are done. And there’s a big risk factor with the company suddenly deciding to depreciate your thing.
I try to only have only “dumb” appliances in my home: kitchen, washing, lighting. If I couldn’t avoid buying with wifi, it doesn’t get enabled.
Then ask for wifi credentials, or ask to connect through a phone. If I don't connect a device, it's because the device is not allowed to be connected. Any device that thinks it's important enough to ship with its own SIM card using an account I don't control, rather than putting the user in full control of connectivity, is a device I will never purchase.
Another commenter speculated that when you're out of service, the software correctly identifies that there is no tower to connect to and stops trying. But when you're in service, the code repeatedly tries to do the 3G handshake because it can see a valid tower.
This made a massive improvement in places like subway stations, stadiums, airports, etc. where you have a ton of clients in a limited area, often all activating at the same time.
It would be interesting to know how much of the efficiency improvements were only in software – a lot of waste could be avoided if your old Subaru could speak enough 4G to be on the network even if it couldn’t do the higher data rates. Obviously improvements which are just due to clients completing their transfers wouldn’t be an option but I wonder whether any of the more efficient background activity, notification, back off, etc. logic could be backported.
-- Slick marketing.
Always pay attention to Consumers Report ratings.
https://www.subarubatterysettlement.com/
The settlement is pathetic. I could never prove the parasitic battery drain on my 2017 forester, so I just had the OEM audio/starlink system replaced with a cheap Sony CarPlay head unit and the problem went away.
But I cannot get reimbursed since I have no proof, even though surely every car manufactured with those components has a parasitic battery drain.
Call your representative, tell them what's going on, and ask them what the DOT is going to do about it. It'll take 30m of your time.
1. All vehicles with 12v starter batteries should also have deep cycle batteries to power the accessories. Chevy Suburbans had that for decades, but some people laughed at vehicles designed to actually run and drive. That's fine. Enjoy the vehicle you picked.
2. It's my car darn it. Any and all communication with it needs to be easily read by my in plain English. I also need to be able to veto any communication, in an easy-to-use, plain English system. This second option would require legislation. The new law should apply to everything made. If the owner is also the operator, then the owner can read and veto all communications.
3. In the interest of national security, all products made must have a minimum of reliance on the outside world. Those connections that do exist must be as standard as possible. Once against, this requires legislation.Any device that refuses to operate without an Internet connection should be illegal. Phone-home DRam should be illegal.
We get what we deserve. The only downside to my ancient pickup truck is that I have to clean the hybrids out of the wheel wells about twice a month.
That was the least of that truck’s problems. Never buying a GM product again.
Also, the old v8 GMC had a carburetor, but still had better fuel economy than the new v8 GMC with fuel injection and that turned off half the cylinders when possible.
Our Ram is slightly better, but still pretty damn bad vs the old GMC. I’d recommend any other brand over GM or Stellantis at this point.
Is this a different Starlink from the Elon Musk one?
Take a look at Dacia.
Previously, there were times that I would drive 100 miles one day, and I couldn't even open the doors using the automatic locks on the following day. It's been about a month on the new DCM and so far I haven't had any issues, so here's hoping...
I reached out to Subaru of America and as a one-time "goodwill gesture," they refunded me for the cost of the DCM.
I took it to New Zealand on roaming and despite having a connection it spent so much time looking for the home network (“Three” in Australia) the battery would last half a day.
So while I totally believe this is killing batteries, I also believe that these cars have more electrical problems than just this.
