I have an idea that has the potential to reduce fentanyl deaths, reduce drug-related violence, and improve operating margins for drug cartels. I assume the cartel leaders are essentially profit motivated, and would be interested in something that would prevent their customers from dying, cut down on the violence that brings law enforcement attention, and improve their profit margins. I realize it sounds a little crazy, but, hypothetically, how would I safely go about setting up meetings with cartels? I'm not even sure where to start or what kind of lawyer to check with for advice.
Email in my bio if you'd rather reach out directly.
Thanks!
You mentioned meeting with the DEA in another comment. Bring a lawyer when you go. You'll have to call around to find one who will agree to put you in jeopardy of criminal prosecution when no liability presently exists. Look for an inexperienced solo practice attorney who needs the money. Don't waste your time calling large firms or any attorneys with a reputation they'd want to keep.
Be ready to give the agents every detail when you meet with them. If you hold anything material back, they'll add an additional count to the indictment for violating 18 U.S.C. § 1001.
Miranda warnings won't apply here, so you won't get the "right to remain silent" spill. That won't come until you're actually in handcuffs during the arrest. Everything you say in the meeting will still be admissible at your trial, however.
If you have any pets, you need to go ahead and find new homes for them. Dogs, especially anything over 5 lbs, tend to get shot when arrest warrants are served. Nobody wants to say it out loud, but honestly it's a better way to go than slowly starving to death in your home while you're in custody.
After you're arrested, you're going to need a new attorney. The good news is that you'll finally be able to hire a more reputable attorney to take your case.
> I know there have been situations where federal agencies have turned out to be "the bad guys", but I guess I'm optimistic that they are generally smart, well intentioned, and interested in some of the same outcomes that I'm talking about.
Oh, they're gonna be very friendly and super interested in your ideas.
Although it would be highly inconvenient to be arrested or get in trouble with the feds, it would make for an interesting story at parties. That's always been something I've struggled with. So... silver lining?
A lot of historical figures I respect have been arrested for standing by their convictions. So I would be in good company.
It also could turn into a good opportunity for publicity.
Plus, it might actually gain me credibility in the eyes of the cartels.
Well you got that one thing right, you are incredibly naive. If you want to reduce harm, volunteer at a safe injection site or try to start one up in your home town. If you want to cozy up between the feds and the cartels as an "innocent," with no knowledge of how anything works, tell your daughter you love her every day because you won't know which will be your last.
Cartels do not fuck around.
First off, saying that you have an idea to "improve their [Cartels] profit margins" by itself is enough to fall foul of the US DEA. Even if you are not in the US, the DEA has plenty of official and unofficial routes to target you and make life unbearably difficult or extradite you to the US where they can really mess you about.
Fentanyl is primarily sourced from China and is knowingly brought in by cartels - it's not an accident it's in drugs and killing people and both China and the cartels are well aware of that and don't care. You're talking about people who torture indiscriminately and dump decapitated bodies in play parks to 'send messages' over minor issues like someone being on the wrong street that they consider their turf.
You're not going to get a "zoom call" with them and you're not going to be able to set up any sort of mutually beneficial business relationship.
I'm in the US and I would actually be very interested in chatting with the DEA about my idea. If it turns out there is no legal way to move ahead with my idea, I won't pursue it further. As I said, I'm not even sure what kind of lawyer I could contact to get advice about this kind of thing. Saul Goodman?
I'm aware that the fentanyl is added on purpose, but I don't think they want to add so much that it kills their customers.
Last year there was some discussion of legalizing cocaine production in Columbia. I think the plan was eventually rejected, but it seems like people are seriously considering creative solutions.
As to why I'm exploring this, it's just a topic I've been thinking about lately. My daughter is starting college in the fall and they've had a lot of deaths over the last few years from fentanyl in pot. I plan to send her with a bunch of fentanyl test strips. If she ends up using them for herself or friends or other random college kids, it could very realistically save a life. Depending on how that goes, I'm also looking at a program to get fentanyl test strips to college kids for free on a larger scale.
No, there is no legal way to "move ahead" with abetting drug cartels.
Customers always come first in our line of work, so I’m always looking for ways to provide a high quality, safe experience with the drugs we provide and this idea sounds like it could be a game changer not just for us cartels, but also for savvy entrepreneurs like yourself.
I reached out directly to the email you provided in your bio (p.s. thanks for making it your real first and last name so there is no confusion on my end) and am eagerly awaiting your reply.
We are a next-generation cartel transforming the way drugs reach your table. We are revolutionizing the entire drug supply chain by leveraging cutting-edge technology, new exploitation practices, and a customer-centric approach.
We kindly request that you provide your contact information, including your full name, address, and phone number, in order for us to reach out to you.
Oh, hello Chris. I work for yet another competing cartel and we would also _love_ to get in touch and discuss the idea in detail. To skip the formalities and get right down to business, we’ve already got someone watching your mother’s house in Indiana. And your sister’s kids are so cute! Did she tell you Ms. Carter gave Sally a gold ribbon at yesterdays’s track meet? What a kid! I guess the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree - her dad was a track star back at Dayville High in 1999, winning first place in high jump. Shame about his twisted ankle injury last June. Yes, we’ve seen the medical records.
We love to know our partners better than they know themselves and we look forward to working with you. For the rest of your brief life.
</sarcasm>
Cartels figured they need somebody to setup sophisticated communication systems - do you think they asked a company for help ? They just kidnapped the people they found working on communications towers, made them do the job, then buried them.
Sorry but your idea of trying to work with a cartel is beyond stupid. With a lot of luck, you could end up working for them. As a slave.
Thanks for the link.
In general, I think people overestimate how hard it is to get a job at a big tech company. Their turnover is very high. If you learn the skill they're looking for and understand how to do well in the interviews/hiring process, I'd say your odds are better than 50/50.
He paid for schools and roads, ate at the local restaurants, attended church on special occasions.
I wouldn't argue there's a safe or easy way to get access to a guy like this, but I doubt it's necessary to go to through drug supply chain. Make friends with the locals.
Maybe the Big Guy might even give a harmless surf bum a head nod in passing if he's being respectful in town. But going down into cartel country to seek out local capos and befriend them for drug business purposes is absolutely horrible advice.
If that happens, you are in bed with some of the most ruthless and powerful people in the world, who can certainly kill you and/or your family members even if you're in the U.S., if they want to kill you bad enough. And if you somehow manage to bring a lot of value to the table, they will want to bring you deeper into the fold so they have more control over you and, if you refuse, will probably kill you so that rival cartels can't get their hands on what you have.
And this is what happens in the outcome you _want_ to achieve! OP, especially considering you have a family (you mentioned a daughter in one post), none of this makes sense.
This post should be flagged and taken down.
Also, the post did get flagged last night. I emailed the moderation team and asked if I had broken some rule / guideline with the post. Dang said I had not and unflagged it.
You've said twice that you think it will be a fun story to tell at parties. You claim the idea was inspired by a night when you called the police because your wife's friend didn't respond to her text messages. The police came and the couple you called them on told you to go away. Nothing happened, and yet you somehow think you may have saved someone's life:
> At this point, we decided to knock on the door. The husband answered, clearly unhappy we were there. We said we just wanted to make sure the friend was ok. He told us to get off his property or he would call the police. We agreed to leave but told him we had already called the police. My wife got a text shortly after that from the friend saying that she was ok, but thanking us for checking on her. We waited for the police to arrive (about 10 minutes later) and we drove home.
> Long story, but I've thought about that night a lot. I think we did the right thing. If we had done nothing, and the friend been hurt somehow, I would have felt horrible knowing that I might have been able to prevent it and didn't
No, it's 100% about ego.
Everything you've discussed is illegal. Knowingly helping someone else commit a crime is also a crime. Knowingly helping someone distribute scheduled drugs is a crime.
The only way doing any of this isn't illegal is if by happenstance your service/product is perfect for illegal activity. But most of the time there are other regulations that would make it impossible for you to provide that product/service without knowing it was being used for crime. But you don't even get away with that, since this post is proof against you.
It seems you want to deal with multiple cartels at the same time. This is suicide. If you do it anyway, treat them all equally, show no favoritism, never compare them. Think of it as having a bunch of aunt/uncles who always tell you that you’re their favorite. They’ll buy you gifts to get you to say it back.
The other side of this: if your software has a bug and causes profits to go down… you might be on the hook for that. Make sure you make it clear that you aren’t responsible for their profits. Yes, your software MAY increase their profits, but they’re responsible for execution, not your software.
Note, this is second-hand advice from a friend.
And on your other point, there would be hardware and software involved, but the cartels wouldn't be interacting with them directly. I'll be sure to have the cartels sign my EULA before proceeding with anything.
There it is. I knew it couldn't be real. Thank god. No joke, I was actually worrying about you lol. Well done.
Okay, this whole post is a bit. Thanks for entertaining us, OP. Many of us were generally worried for your safety.
Literally. They also seem to be very much aware that they're responsible for execution and the OP may find out first hand.
If you want to understand the sociopolitical dynamics of cartels and the strategic logic of their operations, I suggest this monograph: https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA599872.pdf
But your point about just publishing the idea is well taken. This would not be a money making venture for me. A big part of the challenge of getting a cartel meeting would be convincing people that I wasn't wasting their time. That would likely involve establishing credibility somehow. It's an interesting problem.
I appreciate the pointer to that report. It looks fascinating. I'll read through it.
1. That an actual cartel rep would be the person you are talking to, vs. someone undercover with law enforcement who is merely lining up facts with which to arrest and charge you?
2. That, assuming they do work for a cartel, they are going to tell you the truth, rather than just lying to you so you will give you the supposedly breakthrough idea, after which they will have you executed to ensure their competitors don’t get the same idea?
3. That, assuming you aren’t executed by the cartel, they don’t kidnap you to secure your ongoing help as their slave to flesh out the concept before executing you and putting your body in a hole in the desert? And while they hold you, they will show you photos of your daughter, who is under surveillance, while they torture you with the notion that any lack of ongoing full cooperation will result in her intentional poising and death?
Historically, there have been many instances of powerful groups of people willing to commit atrocities to stay in power. In some cases, it's still useful to attempt to negotiate or explore peaceful solutions. When you're negotiating, it's often useful to look for some kind of mutually beneficial outcome where both parties get something valuable, while giving up something less valuable. I have no idea if this would actually be possible in the case of drug cartels, but I think it's worth considering.
There is also a third option of this just being a joke and I have to admit it is pretty funny to imagine you on a Zoom call the Cartel, screen sharing some kind of a process deck you made in Google slides.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume that you actually are not stupid enough to think you could get on a Zoom call with a cartel member, so that means this is most likely a growth stunt, but I have to second guess myself there too because this post has made you look like such a dunce I can't imagine you showing up to work on Monday proud to share the results of this with the growth team.
Friendly advice for next time would be to post this from an account that is not tied directly to who you are as a person
I do enjoy intellectual discussions with smart people on thought provoking topics and that's primarily what this is. I am genuinely curious if my idea could work and I was interested in feedback from the HN crowd. I've been mostly lurking here for about 10 years, and just recently decided to start writing more and trying to participate more actively in HN discussions. This idea struck me as something that could spark a fun discussion, and it has.
Getting something to the front page of Hacker News is a bucket list item for me. It didn't happen this time (I think it got to page 4), but I learned a lot and really enjoyed replying to everyone's comments.
But to be clear, this was not a stunt. It was meant to be a little provocative and attention grabbing, but I do genuinely believe my idea has some merit and might improve a very difficult situation... if it could be done legally and safely.
Email hn@ycombinator.com and dang will take care of it. Give him a link to the comment and be specific about what the problem is.
guerrilla
17 E 62nd St New York City, NY 10065-7204
Telephone: 212-408-5520
> The Sackler family is an American family who founded and owned the pharmaceutical companies Purdue Pharma and Mundipharma.[1] Purdue Pharma, and some members of the family, have faced lawsuits regarding overprescription of addictive pharmaceutical drugs, including OxyContin. Purdue Pharma has been criticized for its role in the opioid epidemic in the United States.[2][3][4] They have been described as the "most evil family in America",[5][6][7][8] and "the worst drug dealers in history".[9][10]
Not an expert on this but my understanding is that since El Chapo Joaquín Guzmán was taken down his cartel splintered and they are no longer operating like a business not that it would have helped your goal here. This would probably be an extra-risky riskier and insane time to try to meet with them. If you are dead set on doing this I would guess that the least risky way to get a message to them would be to talk to a Sheriff in a border town that deals with their drug and people smugglers and knows what people can relay a message to them. They will advise against this as well. I would not try to meet them in person.
Here is one of them [1] give this reporter or Sheriff a call. He's in Yuma County, AZ. Have thick skin, they are going to give you a hard time. Maybe hire an actor from South America the cartel might respect and pay the actor to make a short to-the-point video the cartel may enjoy watching.
Many successful startup ideas do sound very ill-conceived initially and often have legal problems, despite their success. Having strangers drive you places? Renting a room in a random person's house? Having a book retailer host all your IT infrastructure? So, although I do appreciate your point, I don't think those factors alone are reason enough to give up on the concept.
I don't know if this is some elaborate troll but if your idea is so great you should just publish it. I'm sure you would get credit if it was successful.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36737819
I am now fully confident this is satire.
Well played. 20/10. You had me going for longer than I care to admit. Best HN troll I've seen.
Monopolies get pitches for new products all the time, but their answer is:
- If it's any good, why isn't it already growing?
- We'll wait and see if it grows. If it does, we'll just muscle our way in.
- Have fun, kid. We'll let you know when it's time to join us.
If not, why don’t you just publish your idea and be the one who reduced fentanyl deaths and violence?
You mentioned that you want to improve drug cartel profit margins. Is that the reason why you want to connect to them directly instead of sharing your idea publicly?
Are you planning to propose sharing on some of that profit margin increase on drug dealing? Is this some sort of "growth hacking" for drug cartels? Is your company on board with you working for drug cartels?
And finally, did you mention that HN mods are OK with the site being used as a medium for assisting in contacting drug cartels with intent of increasing their profit margins?
Improving drug cartel profit margins is not a direct goal. Reducing deaths and violence is the goal, but I don't see a way to do that without getting the cartels to change how they operate a bit. The only way I can think of to get them to want to change is with economic incentives. They seem to not respond to other types of incentives/punishments. If you have thoughts on what might motivate them other than profits, I'd love to hear it.
No, I have no interest in making money from this idea or sharing profits with the cartels. Doing so would obviously be illegal and I'm only looking for legal pathways to achieve my goals.
No, I wouldn't describe it as "growth hacking". I'm not interested in growing their businesses, just exploring creative options that might reduce the death/violence. I'm speaking here in a purely personal capacity. My employer has not endorsed anything I'm discussing, nor would I ask/expect them to. I recognize that there is a possibility of some negative blowback from this post. If they asked me to, I would be happy to delete it. It's certainly not my intent to embarrass anyone or create negative associations with my employer. My hope is that if my company's leadership does come across the post, they would recognize that there was good intent behind it and don't feel the need to cut ties with me to avoid repetitional damage over a fairly abstract/hypothetical discussion on a forum where users compete to gain the attention of other people in the community. It is nuanced and not without some professional risk, but I'm pretty sure my employer would give me a chance to fix things if they felt there was a problem.
Your question about the mods is a little too leading/loaded for me to simply confirm or deny. All I will say is that the post was flagged last night, I emailed the moderation team, Dang emailed me back and unflagged the post. If Dang is ok with it, I'd be happy to post his email here, but I don't want to assume that he would want comments he made privately to be shared publicly.
> I assume the cartel leaders are essentially profit motivated, and would be interested in something that would prevent their customers from dying, cut down on the violence that brings law enforcement attention, and improve their profit margins.
This is probably a matter on which you should have done some research that does not involve discussing your idea before deciding to move forward with making even a vague outline of your thoughts public.
> I realize it sounds a little crazy
“A little crazy” is something you might, barely, be able to see in the distance if you look back toward normal right now.
> I'm not even sure where to start or what kind of lawyer to check with for advice.
Well, really, almost any lawyer before posting about it publicly would probably have been a good idea. Not about “how do I execute this idea”, because that is presupposing the answer to several other questions you’ve skipped over.
(Looking at your other posts)
> I'm in the US and I would actually be very interested in chatting with the DEA about my idea.
There are certain enforcement agencies whose approach to certain laws within their scope of enforcement responsibility is primarily to inform and guide so that people don’t get into the position where the less friendly enforcement actions become necessary.
But it has never beem my impression that that’s the DEA’s approach to anything, especially plans to help drug cartels increase their profit margins.
> I know there have been situations where federal agencies have turned out to be "the bad guys", but I guess I'm optimistic that they are generally smart, well intentioned, and interested in some of the same outcomes that I'm talking about.
Some of them, maybe. The problem is that some of the outcomes you are talking about are very much anti-goals of those agencies, and stopping people who are actively pursuing them is an objective likely to trump those that might be shared.
It sounds like if there is a non-insane idea at the core of the very bad execution concept you have laid out—and it sounds like it is some harm reduction approach, which is a fraught area for a number of reasons—and you want to acheive it without getting yourself killed by the cartels (or, more likely, the people you try to work your way through to reach them) and/or killed or imprisoned by law enforcement, you need to stop talking about your concept of execution and do some real researxh on the actors and institutions and structures (government and otherwise) in this space, and understand their goals, operating patterns, organization structures. etc., much better than you do, to evaluate if there is a viable approach to broaching your idea, and which actors (institutionally, by position within institutions, and bt specific named individuals) you should be going to to pitch it, based on institutional, positional, and personal interests, constraints, and capacities.
The naive generalized ideas about cartels and relevant law enforcement agencies you have are juat going to get you in deep trouble, otherwise.
This is not a situation where going forward with a half-considered idea and relying on the good intentions, procedural flexibility, and open civic mindedness and willingness to cooperate of drug cartel members and law enforcement agents is going to be a viable strategy.
I definitely will not move forward with anything before getting good legal advice from an actual lawyer.
One of my main reasons for wanting to meet with the cartels is just to make my intentions clear, trying to proactively avoid any misunderstandings. I've generally found that powerful people / organizations respond better when you check in with them first before getting involved with any of their stuff.
Perhaps it would be sufficient to just be very open about my plans and hope they happen to read my blog. One-way communication is better than no communication.
The Cartels themselves? Probably looking at finding someone who knows someone who knows someone. Maybe a billboard?
The government of your country who might not enjoy you assisting the cartels? You probably fucked that up already.
Another possibility is that even if the cartels like my idea, it might upset other parties in the supply chain and they could take action.
Billboard is a good idea. I'll look into that. What should it say?
(Posting this only as you seem to have decided to low-key reveal the ruse)
If you are sincere, I have difficulty understanding how you have functioned in society for apparently decades. My guess is that you have figured out that being laughably wrong on the internet is a great way to drive traffic. In which case thanks for wasting everyone’s time. But there’s no obvious hook here other than HN karma?
If not, then I am concerned you are literally, unironically, having a mental breakdown of some kind. Mania perhaps. If you still think your idea is worthwhile, maybe you should ask someone you trust if your behavior has been off lately and get checked out by a doctor.
The person that made the suggestion to Sanitize your profile and remove the employer has a sense of self preservation.
Is it 8 AM in California yet?
I'm sorry but you strike me as criminally naive.
El Chapo's family office is putting together a term sheet as we speak!
set the information free.
if you aren’t aiming to make a profit, let the cartels find it. release the idea into the wind, and hope it finds its way. and you go back to yours.
if you are, you have a much bigger problem than the cartels. (it’s you.)
Go to federal prison.
You'll make the contacts necessary to do whatever you're trying to do.
You'd be the first person in the world to consume a novel drug, this should give you enough pleasure (plus of course the pleasure from the drug) to completely abandon the idea of making money doing business with cartels, hell it could completely turn you off to the idea of money at all, if not to continue producing and consuming the drug.
It's a choice, you mentioned better operating margins so I guess your idea makes the drug cheaper to make? This gives you a slower burn rate and thus a longer runway.
I have a feeling that you won't go through with this idea, but in the future remember that any idea which require you to speak with the bosses of an existing organization to completely overhaul their production system should be discarded because it's not actionable and just a waste of time. This idea adds the illegal bit which is of course a whole other story.
Drug cartels do not respond to people they did not meet organically. You could be a cop trying to set them up, so they ignore you. You could be a rival looking to harm them, so they ignore you.
If you get too annoying, they may hurt you. People who value human life do not generally traffic illegal / street drugs.
This time it’s far, FAR more illegal than you seem to think.
I imagine this will have some interesting ramifications on your future employment opportunities, since you managed to nicely link it to your real identity.
You're not going to do any good because criminals don't give AF about something that isn't their mission. Ending the prohibition War on Drugs is the best path that even LEOs admit is an abject (and racist and classist) failure. [0]
0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_Enforcement_Action_Partner...
they don't care. there's more getting hooked to replace them every day.
there's no profit in lifting a finger to prevent the deaths, it is all a perfectly acceptable moral cost of doing business (for people who are very willing to kill in cold blood).
your mental model of the cartels and their motivations and business model is very broken.
With all this traction you should apply to Why Combinator.
Off the top of my head though my "idea-marketing" strategy for your case, would be:
- Contact narco influencers on Tiktok & other social platforms
- Contact narco lawyers & ask them to forward your message
- Take out entire page advertisements in main Mexican newspapers for 1-2 months
