I’m an engineering manager at a fully remote US company with long-term plans to stay (and even if not, no desire to return to the office regularly). I don’t drive but like to walk to the supermarket and restaurants. My wife doesn’t like living in a big city, so we’re in the burbs within walking distance of a little “downtown” area.
It’s a bit of an unhappy medium because the homes we want still cost $1M, yet it’s a long and limited walk. Plus we’re ready for something new. We’d likely both be happier in a town, living just off some Main Street with 20 or so shops. The city is great but honestly I don’t need more than a good diner, a supermarket, and a friendly bar. Nice to haves are a pleasant climate (not too cold), an airport within an hour or so, and decent public schools.
I’m asking here because I hear so much about NYC/SF tech workers being set loose by remote work and leaving. I’ve experienced this with colleagues relocating to SC, Lancaster PA, small towns in Maryland… etc.
Any ideas on whether this mid-sized town dream exists, ideas for cities, and/or how we’d go about finding it?
I found one that seemed too good to be true. a 220,000 sqft metal warehouse and office complex on 17 acres. I thought the price was a typo at $375k.The agent assured me that the price was correct, and I flew out to see the place.
It was in a little town called Pine Bluff, Arkansas.
I offered about 3/4 what they were asking, and they accepted the offer.
Fast forward 2 1/2 years, and I've had nothing but problems. Break in after break in. Can't work through the red tape with the city so my warehouse sits empty. It feels like they are actively working against myself and other entrepreneurs I talk to. At least 2 others who bought buildings and tried to open businesses left after getting nowhere.
Maybe I'm daft, but I ended up buying about 75 more properties here... all surprisingly cheap.
The town is killing me though. I haven't seen my kids very much lately - I don't think it's safe enough for them. I'm probably going to be moving back to Utah in the next couple of months because it's just too much out here.
Clearly something is very wrong with the local government and population.
You have the kind of money to casually buy up all this real estate, but you still went bargain-hunting for a warehouse? This reads like some kind of LARP or joke.
Have you considered selling?
You might try Jonesboro, Fort Smith, or Hot Springs if you're looking for cheap nearby places. North Little Rock or someplace in NW Arkansas too would have more nearby amenities, albeit at higher (though still quite affordable nationally) prices.
Did you buy the warehouse sight unseen? Did you do any research on the local community and crime rates?
Cheap land is cheap for a reason. It sounds like you found out the reason that land was so cheap.
Personally the most interesting question I haven’t seen asked is how he searched for cheap properties.
I mean, is it unreasonable for the city to expect new drawings/specs for a new use of a building that has been unmaintained for at least 15 years? The fact that the property was sold for such a cheap price basically implies that the new owner should expect to invest a substantial amount of money to get everything up to code.
> Fenley said he selected the site because it was “the largest cheapest building in the country.” When he searched the commercial real estate website LoopNet for properties over 65,000 square feet and sorted by price, he thought the price tag of roughly $300,000 was a typo. The 17-acre industrial property was once home to steel manufacturer Varco Pruden but has stood vacant for at least 15 years and “fallen into disrepair,” according to the city’s Planning Commision.
> Pine Bluff City Attorney Althea Scott told the Cap Times by email that the Planning Commission had approved Fenley’s plans for the site in June, contingent on compliance with building and fire codes. But, she wrote, “the applicable codes can only be determined once Mr. Fenley has submitted the requisite engineer/architectural drawing(s) which identifies the anticipated use and occupancy of the structure. To date, required drawings have not been received.”
> Fenley told the Cap Times that such drawings would cost “tens of thousands of dollars,” and his communications with the city have led him to believe that he would need to bring the entire structure into compliance with current building codes before he could use any of it.
Additional context about Murfie; seems like it was sold for a huge discount: nearly a million CDs sold for less than $10,000. No wonder u/pontifier saw an entrepreneurial opportunity:
https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/5/21121594/crossies-murfie-m...
> Finally, after about a month, Murfie’s investors agreed to sell. Fenley purchased Murfie for only $6,000 plus $2,000 for Murfie’s attorney’s fees, according to the agreement obtained by The Verge. In total, he says the endeavor has cost him about $25,000 so far.
> Murfie’s 930,000 discs are still sitting in its Wisconsin warehouse. No one’s been inside since the landlord changed the locks some time ago, but Fenley says he’ll have access “shortly.”
You know this now, but most crime databases have Pine Bluff as one of the most crime-riddles metros in the country. It rates a "1" on a scale of 100, with 100 being best (safest). Bummer.
Is there a tool that can do that, or did you piece together data from multiple sources?
I've heard most of the commercial real estate that's publicly listed is just the deals that the pros have already passed on.
Or go a level above local government and get some bigger guns?
Hard pass no matter what the price.
1. https://twitter.com/pontifier/status/1559001472746098693?s=2...
2. https://twitter.com/oriwa_/status/1559042188608405505?s=21&t...
and
https://twitter.com/pontifier/status/1538230779658002432?s=2...
The one town you mention, Lancaster, PA, is a model of the type.
However, a lot of people move to college towns and don't realize/remember what college kids are like... they will be noisy at night, sometimes destroy property, throw parties, do stupid pranks... it isn't for everybody
College towns often have plenty of live music coming through with regularity, art, people with more open minds? (I don't mean to start a debate with the last point, just my preference perhaps.)
Lawrence works too because you're 30 or 45 minutes from a big city (Kansas City) so you can get your REI or IKEA on if you need to.
Lincoln, Nebraska is another near me (although I have not lived there) that is within 45 minutes of Omaha.
Had lunch in Iowa City and it looked comparable. An afternoon in Columbia, Missouri and it looked appealing as well.
Another college town I like is Eugene, or Ellensberg. Flagstaff maybe? Depends on your climate, look for colleges with maybe 10k-ish students? Another one that I can't stand because of the weather is Champagne Urbana. 10 minute drive out from town, and you're in farmland.
Another benefit is access to cultural benefits that wouldn’t normally be available, like great libraries and concerts and orchestras (often free). Check out Pullman, WA as another example.
This is pretty much the only answer for the US. Small independent towns have ceased to exist because they have no reason to. But the legacy of land grant universities across the US has left plenty of towns like Gainesville, Ames, Athens, Boulder, Asheville, Chattanooga, Eugene, Laramie, College Station, etc. etc. that are fantastic places to live and have strong real estate markets.
Not sure that the real estate is going to be all that cheap, though.
Not a college town but also in California are Sacramento, Ventura, San Luis Obispo (CalPoly but I wouldn’t say college town), and San Diego (UCSD but not a college town). The latter three are beach towns if you like temperate climate. Sac doesn’t get too cold but it does get very hot. All have nice downtowns (depending on what you want) and don’t require a car.
You’ll have CA high taxes and real estate probably cost double or triple what it would in the mid-West but a fraction of LA or Bay Area.
State College PA is a college town.
Lancaster is just a nice small city with a few colleges in it.
Pros
- Great climate 10 out of 12 months
- Friendly people
- Lots of outdoor activities
- Beautiful beaches (Fripp Island and Kiawah especially)
- Low cost housing (altho going up rapidly)
- Greenville and Charleston are very nice
- Heart of MAGA land (this may be a pro depending on your politics)
- First question is about what church you go to
- Can still be shockingly racist at times (altho getting much better)
- Weak zoning so sprawling construction and walkable areas limited
- Food choices can be limited for vegans/vegetarians
- July/August - the heat and humidity are roughIn Seattle there was an attitude called K.B.O. which stands for Keep the Bastards Out. It mostly means when talking to outsiders, you should complain about the rain so they don't get any ideas about moving there.
We need to develop a KBO for the Carolinas. Greenville has an absolutely disgusting downtown, with an ugly gross river going through it and a rickety pedestrian bridge that is bound to kill someone. The tech industry is absolutely drying up and I'm getting ready to become a hog farmer.
Big /s
Honestly... It's kind of great. The people are nice, the scenery is gorgeous, it's pretty quiet, and most everything you need is right in town. Since the community is so poor, all the housing is cheap. Nearby towns are all bought up as second homes for expats. Everything outside town is an old farm.
The worst thing about the place is it's a minimum 2 hour drive to anywhere, and having a car is mandatory to get here. But if you have everything you need, there's no need to leave. There is no Uber/Lyft/Instacart/GrubHub, don't expect any startups here. Cell service outside of towns is mostly nonexistent. Also know that none of your old friends will ever visit because it's way too inconvenient.
The only things I miss are "big city" things and more people around into the same things I'm into. And an international airport would be nice, but it's not like I was flying around the world every weekend before.
Housing costs are higher, but probably not the $1M you mention unless you really want to go overboard.
Walk to the store, city bus is free, great place to raise kids, bike paths and trails, and you're out of town into the woods or farm fields in 15 minutes of driving. 1 hour to the coast, or 1 hour to the mountains. University as well as HP, NuScale, and other smaller companies.
People that come here can definitely turn into lifers.
The city also has "Da vinici days" in the summer which is great.
Had a friend with parents who lived there and a mentor too.
There is a fair amount of suburb-type housing I didn't really like, but there are also little hippie areas and cool spots in the hills.
OSU also has the Open Source Lab, a notable non-profit.
Go beavs.
For example check out Geneva Illinois
The story behind the estate is very interesting, iirc Fabyan was obsesesd with finding hidden codes in Shakespeare, thinking he could prove Francis Bacon was the real author. By the time World War I broke out, he had gathered a library of historical cyphers and had a team of codebreakers working for him, who quickly changed course from Shakespeare to the War Department.
It's a frank lloyd wright house with a well done japanese garden right on the fox river, worth taking the tour :)
[1] https://www.nbc29.com/2022/06/22/charlottesville-city-counci...
Towns near the Tetons. Jackson of course is crazy expensive, but the towns nearby are amazing.
And the place is more progressive that you might think - for WY
Please don't move somewhere only to introduce the same problems you're fleeing.
Of course, but you should figure out what specifically you're looking for beyond what you've described.
Do you care about tax implications? Are you planning to rent or own a home? Do you have friends or family in any of these areas?
If you haven't traveled much I'd recommend doing it.
This is the most accurate map breaking down regions in the United States in my opinion: https://i.redd.it/q79o3qo8zz991.png
Just for reference, here is a 'cleaner' version that most people like: https://i.redd.it/y4pxyq5eslh51.png
> ... and/or how we’d go about finding it
Others in this thread have some good search ideas but personally I'd start at the top and narrow it down from there.
If you go to https://www.naco.org/ and click on `county explorer` you can filter the map on a county level across a bunch of different dimensions.
I'd definitely limit your choice to places with high internet speeds, good education, growing population, high scoring infrastructure, etc.
Just keep pruning down until you find a few you think you'd like.
> ideas for cities
I could list dozens but maybe check out: Beaver, PA; Mason, MI; Wilson, NC; College Station, TX; Macomb, IL
Assuming your wife is willing to drive some then: Longview, WA; Castle Dale, UT; Wisconsin Rapids, WI;
How much do you care about: - climate - schools - transportation - proximity to a big city - red state / blue state / purple state - time zone Etc etc etc.
Be more specific in thinking about the details of what you want, along as many dimensions as possible.
Not so for Muleshoe, Texas.
If you're from the east coast, you might find the perfect physical scene in Oregon. But be prepared that west coasters are different from you, potentially in important ways that affect your ability to find a sense of belonging. Ditto if you're from California and looking at Georgia. Northerners and southerners, of course, look sideways at each other for lots of political and cultural reasons, but there are plenty of reasons to feel like you do or don't belong in a culture that aren't historically, culturally, or racially charged.
Most functioning communities consider themselves to have "good schools." Do you share their bar for that? "Good" for what?
Important questions. Climate isn't he only thing that varies by region. If you don't know the regional culture in an area that interests you, go stay a while.
(I've lived in the Pacific Northwest, both urban and rural California, both urban and rural Texas, Chicago, and New England, and spent substantial time in NYC and the Deep South. Trust me. It's not all the same.)
> But be prepared that west coasters are different from you, potentially in important ways that affect your ability to find a sense of belonging.
Can you elaborate on this point?
While I don't entirely disagree, and this is just my observations, if you pick the neighborhood/town with the best schools within the larger metro area, you tend to get a decent amount of transplants living there. It is the average/below average towns that have the people who have always lived there.
You say that you just need a bar and a supermarket, but you've probably never lived in, like, Brady, TX or Cuba, NM. Stuff gets small fast, though those are cheap places to live. You can buy amazing houses in defunct oilfeild towns like Pampa, TX. But really, if you have a heart attack there you're in for about an hour drive to get to definitive care.
What you would do is load all of the data as layers in QGIS, then, probably starting with house listings that met your criteria, select all homes that were within X miles/meters to stuff like
- grocery store
- hospital
- lake
- bar
- climbing spot/bike trails/hiking
- etc etc etc what ever you want for criteria
Hardest part would be hunting down all the data and some geocoding would probably be involved (there would probably be several data sources that you would have to convert from list of addresses to lat/long points) but there are enough free geocoding services out there that this wouldn’t be tough at all.
All in all could probably be done in an afternoon or two for someone familiar with tech but a newbie to QGIS
Where exactly did you end up?
The entire town felt propped up by the existence of a single military base.
So not sure how valid that map is anymore.
The town that inspired Andy Griffith’s Mayberry is in the mountains of NC (or maybe it was VA). Stuff like that is all over the place here.
As for me, I chose a small, walkable town that isn’t too far from Greenville, SC (which is itself considered to be a small, walkable town by some folks).
We were looking at possibly relocating to a friendlier state than Texas if gay marriage were to be overturned. Thankfully, that's looking less likely, but it's still on the back of my mind a bit. We have some family in El Paso, so that would be convenient.
Main consideration would be quality of public schools. Some semblance of a social life for folks in their early 30s/parents would be nice but we could deal with that being not as great with El Paso close by. Availability of decent groceries, especially for cooking Mexican dishes, and fast internet would be pluses as well. I imagine the real estate market there is quite cheap. We'd love the climate if it's the same as El Paso.
I mean look at this gorgeous house for the same price you'd pay for a porta potty in a lot of places: https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/515-W-Broa...
Great schools, very progressive area (at least for MS). No homeless people leaving needles in the streets or throwing poop at me. Quite humid! 5Gb/s fiber to my house from multiple competing providers. Paid way way way below $1M (way below $500k lol) for 2500sft house with a huge yard, walking distance to the gulf of mexico (and a nice beach area) and about a mile from dozens of downtown restaurants. 10 minute drive to Biloxi and casinos and other nightlife. I have lost count of the number of people who have gone down my street on bikes or jogging (or on golf carts, which are street legal here). Gulf Islands National Seashore's entrance is less than half a mile away.
That being said, I would not have wanted to move to the gulf, and certainly not that part of it. Lake Charles got hit by multiple strong hurricanes in 2020, and I drove through a few weeks ago and they’re still covered in tarps and boarded up windows. Look at all the blue roofs on Google Maps! And then compare the distance of Lake Charles and Ocean Springs from the gulf.
Edit: To clarify, I’m sure you know this already. You can’t live there for long and not know. The above is more for the benefit of others who might read your post and not realize the extreme danger posed by rapidly developing, strong hurricanes in the gulf.
My wife and I are serious about it but there’s a pretty narrow window we’d have to hit to time it well for our kids.
My observation, fwiw, is that the American small town, self-sufficient and independent from a neighboring city, is a dying breed.
Not all small towns will die the same way or on the same schedule. But here are some things to think about.
- Is there a tourist draw? Do short-term rentals address this opportunity? Every vacation rental is a unit unavailable to the local salaried population and where we live this cannibalizes the fabric of the small town.
- Is the local industry durable? That could be a university, it could be timber, it could be a BMW factory 90 minutes away, it could be a fishing fleet. Where we live the local industry will be eradicated in our lifetime due to climate change. And the state university system is retracting, not growing.
- Do the local schools suffer under-enrollment? Where we live they do not, but neighboring towns have so many retirees and houses turned into short-term rentals that the schools are threatened.
In short, the internet means there are no undiscovered places, and the economics can undermine what makes a place special in the first place. Add to that some places are going to be significantly impacted by global warming.
Today we live in a sort of paradise but we are aware that it may not be our forever home, if such a thing exists.
Some are, some aren't. I'm more than willing to share my story but I did my research before I left Austin for the Hill Country and couldn't be happier.
But yes, right on, 20 or so shops, walkable downtown with houses an easy walk away, a few good restaurants (including a great diner! :) and at least two friendly bars. Good internet connection if you're in town. I don't get in my car for weeks at a time---and that's probably your hardest item, because anywhere between "pretty small town" and "sizeable city with good public transit" living without a car (in the US) is going to be very very difficult. (Even in a place like Farmville, you don't need the car around town but you'll need it to get out of town.)
ETA: I see from your profile you're in DC now. Come visit! We're only 3 hours away ;)
There are restaurants and bars sure, I would ask myself if you actually need 'shopping'
Personally I highly prefer to buy only HQ products which I can look into from my couch other than buying whatever the store has in stock.
This doesn't seem like most small towns would work. Cars become required outside cities in my experience, and small towns mean lots of long drives for basic things.
Pretty much everything from residentials to main street is 1 mile away.
I can walk across my entire town in 30 minutes, almost fully on sidewalks, the few streets with no side walks have no traffic.
Usually there's one main road through town and it doesn't go far, neighborhoods are on each side.
Personally I've found small towns much more walkable than cities contrary to HN anecdotes.
The programs are generally designed to bring people into rural areas, you need to pay close attention to make sure there is sufficient internet for you to work remotely. Places like Frontier top out at 1.5mbps, a little further down the road your internet might be line of sight wireless. Then inexplicably the other side of a hill might be top of the line cable internet. You can’t really trust the web sites, they need to come out and confirm an address can be serviced at the speed you need (without you paying them $10,000+ to run cable)
Oh! Your employer might need to be registered with the state so they can submit your withholdings. You should verify with your HR department which states they can support.
Which kinda leads into my suggestion--find somewhere that has at least two options for internet if you can. Confirm by calling the companies--they can usually see if they've provided service to that address before and have access to more accurate and up-to-date information than any of the web systems. Then sign up for two connections. You won't really know for sure until you use it whether the speeds are what they're selling, whether it's reliable or is going out every time it rains, etc.
Particularly if your plan involves some sort of WISP, coverage is very location dependent and you don't really know for sure until it's installed and operational whether or not they're going to provide you service. If they show up and start setting gear up and the signal's too bad, they may just pack up and yell "sorry!" out the window as they take off down the driveway.
When I moved I had bog-slow DSL and fixed LTE installed the same day to make sure I'd have internet for work the following Monday. I had to fail over from the LTE to the DSL a few times over the next few months, but it was _generally_ reliable. Once my Starlink order came through I ran three connections for another few months and finally dropped the DSL.
Personally the dual connections is a 100% requirement for me. The internet is how I make money. Missing one day of work because I have no internet would set me back enough to pay for something like 10 months of that shitty DSL. It's not the place I'm taking risks, especially when the cost to mitigate it may be spending $10-30k to have someone run a connection out or _having to sell a house and move_.
There are lots of houses downtown for less than $400K and even new "luxury" condos going up everywhere. There is a convenient train that can have you in Philly in an hour for <$20. (also goes to NY) You can be in Baltimore and DC in a few hours and you can be in the Poconos for skiing in the same time. There is the oldest continuously operating farmer's market downtown. (and tons outside the city) There is a thriving art scene (and college). There are tons of ethnic restaurants (there are a lot of relief and refugee orgs). You can be at the beach in two or three hours (depending which one). There are tons of outlets for shopping east of town if that's your thing. There is very little traffic except for 3 specific bottlenecks that you'll learn to avoid. There is a thriving tech community with several weekly meetups that discuss new tech at a local bar.
Come live with the cool kids.
(Source: I live in Lancaster and there is no place better net net)
I imagine you have other factors like distance from family, area of the country, weather, proximity to mountains/beach/parks/major metro for things to do, etc. so those should narrow down what states. Then go on a mini vacation and explore or work remotely from where you’re exploring.
Why? This sounds (especially given the two specific states named) more like an impression from partisan media than practical advice. Those two states do indeed happen to have comparatively high tax burden and metro areas with high real estate costs. But the relationship isn't well correlated. Maine and Minnesota are "high tax" states with cheap housing, and Alaska has (IIRC) the lowest tax burden but wildly higher cost of living. Similarly Miami has low tax and outrageous real estate, etc...
(Also recognize that state and local taxes make up a comparatively small share of an individual's tax burden in the US, anyway. The difference in total tax between NY and TN is something like 20% if I'm doing the math right)
You don't want to end up in a coastal city just to find yourself under 1m of water in a few years!
Home of a small college and a few large obscure athletic events (Unbound Gravel and disc golf nationals). Kansas is also a very reasonable state, politically, compared to much of the midwest. Less than two hours from decent sized airports (MCI and Wichita).
Eastern Kansas in general wouldn't be a bad place for a remote worker. Many of these towns have fiber. Homes are incredibly cheap. I picked up a 120 yr old farmhouse with broadband, a few acres and several 100 yr old trees for well under 100k. There's a deep calm here I really enjoy.
One interesting choice in Kansas is the town of Humboldt. Locals got tired of seeing their town decline as many others in the state. They've taken some impressive steps towards reversing that. Revitalizing their downtown with a string of new businesses. Here's a (paywall free) Kansas City Star article on the town and their newfound success.
Also agree with the 'college towns' comment.
I’ve lived in more than one small town, and the airports within an hour or two drive were not decent.
Agree about defining small town — for me, that’s under 10k pop, which is extremely limiting. Places others might consider “small towns” (40k pop) I would consider cities.
I liked the book but the only problem for me is that I don't live in the US, so if anyone can recommend a similarly detailed examination of climate issues for the UK, let me know!
And it's all at rock bottom prices.
Louisville airport is about an hour away, and since it's a major UPS hub, it's quite nicer than the population of the area would otherwise support.
I grew up in the Thurston County area in the 80s, and went to school at TESC, a hippie liberal arts college I remember the downtown as being charming, with lots of hip cafes, bars, and restaurants. I've considered moving back there myself. That said, in recent years epidemics of homelessness and drug addiction have taken a bit of a toll on the city, but I still think it's worth checking out.
Everyone is thinking like you during the pandemic when remote work was the norm. That pushed up housing prices in weird places, like Boise, and other places like Sedona. Places that are small, typically tourist places, but very nice and pretty. The lack of housing has pushed up prices to ridiculous levels, but once the market corrects, it'll be a different world.
I think if it's to live in, just do it. Save market-timing for a second home/investment/flip - and even then be opportunistic in an observed dip rather than waiting for it to happen.
Lansing, MI
Chapel Hill, NC
Wilmington, NC
*Ithaca, NY*
One thing I would suggest is that if you're moving, bear in mind that climate change is making some previously pleasant places much more unpleasant. Look at recent years of fire data, flood data, air quality from smoke, drought, heat, etc.
And finally, make sure the place you're moving to is going to have ample, clean fresh water, and no other environmental problems looming. Don't move to Vegas. Don't move to Salt Lake City. Don't move anywhere that is going to lose power if Lake Mead or Lake Powell dry up.
You can search EWG for your prospective towns. Be aware that many, many towns in the US have way higher PFAS / PFOA / etc. than you probably want. Many have very high levels of other contaminants as well. Some whole-house filters can filter that out but they're expensive.
Here's the EWG report for a sample California town: https://www.ewg.org/tapwater/system.php?pws=CA0110009
Search "town name + superfund". Search "town name" + "pollution". Search "town name" + {various natural disasters}. Search "town name" + "smoke". Search "town name" + "smell". Search "town name" + "water."
Go visit everywhere that's on your short list. Ask people about the town.
Good luck!
Ended up buying a house in one of those towns that we had passed through on vacation. Within walking distance of everything we need. It's much cheaper than the big city, or even a suburb near a big city.
I'm currently living in Carson City, it has some walkable (older) areas of town but not great. You could try Walla Walla, WA or Baker City, OR.
Because if you really just want a home, a supermarket, a few local restaurants, a bar, a few shops, and an airport within an hour drive, some New Jersey areas come to mind.
But these aren't likely to be dream towns. They will have flaws. Almost certainly will has less walkability than any city you may live in, unless you live on, and never leave, the main strip. There will be less variety in foods, the bar culture you imagine may not be the bar culture that is actually there.
I think this site will even contact cities for you that don't have incentive programs.
Another advantage of these city programs is you're part of a cohort of relocaters - so you always have people sharing the newcomer experience with you.
In small towns, people are very nosy, and it gets incredibly tiring after a while. People stare at you and look you up and down. Except, when it's a college town, because they're used to having strangers around.
Especially now being a real estate agent (which in itself is a story of the changes that come with small town life...), I meet lots of people of all demographics moving into our area. Many have never spent any time here, but are drawn to the pictures in the tourist magazine, so to speak. I'm already starting to see people who bought during covid lockdowns who are now having buyers remorse as they realize that maybe small town life isn't for them. All I'm saying is, do more than spend a weekend in a place before you decide to buy a house and shake up your life - I've legit seen people buy houses having basically never been here, and that's not a wise approach.
Frankly, if you really have the means and don't have family ties keeping you in a place, I'd ask: why stay in the US at all? But regardless of where you go, hone your research in quickly. Don't keep looking at every last little burg in all 50 states. Go rent an airbnb for a couple of weeks and live as though you live there - and make yourself a study of the tradeoffs you'd be making with each place.
> Any ideas on whether this mid-sized town dream exists...
Sure it exists.
> ...and/or how we’d go about finding it?
Sure, you need to do your research and figure that out for yourself. I researched on the internet for about 18 months and did a lot of boots-on-the-ground investigation. I eventually moved to a small town in the Texas Hill Country that I adore. Low crime, very clean and beautiful environment, low cost of living, absolutely fantastic community and gigabit fiber internet.
I then bought a second, larger home in a small town a little closer to Austin that is logistically a little more convenient and not so remote. But again, it has low crime, a local hospital, HEB grocery store, fantastic community and gigabit fiber internet.
Just do your research. It's not so hard but it will take a little time.
The peace and quiet combined with the cost of living is priceless. I couldn't be happier. I love it out here.
- travel-time, via connections like airports, train stations, motorways, etc. You will need them when you want to travel, or your spouse needs to get to an office
- weather. Now and predictions of how it will change in the future
- water levels and flood risks and how they are predicted to change over your lifetime (especially important of you like the coast, rivers, etc.)
- forest fires, draught etc might be a factor depending on your climate
- proximity to industrial or academic centers
- general social-economic situation of the place that is interesting to you
Most of this data is likely freely available from public / state sources.
If you don't know the place, rent first, buy when you are happy. Data is unlikely to provide the full picture and you need to live in a place to get a full picture of it's quirks. Make sure to use the facilities you care about to get an idea how they work in practice.
Study. You can type "Las Cruces NM climate" into Google and get a free graph. You know your interests better than any of us, and you can look at local event listings, restaurants, venues etc to see what's a good fit. Zillow will tell you about schools and crime, and airports are on the map.
When people go by word-of-mouth based on where other people went, you get a situation where everyone moves to Denver^W Austin^W Nashville, and then it isn't fun anymore. Nobody goes there, it's too crowded. Especially when the discussion is on the Internet.
Small towns that are supported by companies and agriculture have been drained dry by corporate greed. Jobs have been off-shored and taxes have been almost completely avoided. Sometimes a town is supported by a major military contractor, but they aren't terribly dependable. Some places are supported by retirees, but they aren't nearly as affordable.
So if you want to look for a stable small town, look for towns near universities, colleges, or military bases.
When you think you found a good one, go visit in person and see if it meets expectations.
If you want a specific instance, check out Champaign-Urbana, IL. There's Research Park, the University of Illinois, a bunch of bars and restaurants, fun art sprinkled around town, gigabit fiber and homes are under $200K. We walk to the grocery store with our wagon and just fill it up instead of using a shopping cart. If you come visit, be sure to check out Black Dog (a barbeque joint). https://yourewelcomecu.com/
The only thing you need is a company in NL and keeping $4500 on your bank account. Registering a company in NL is as easy as buying milk. One visit to the Chamber of Commerce [1] and you're good.
Lancaster PA: drive from Park City Mall to the center of Lancaster City, which is the Greist Building, the tallest in the area (has many telecom antennas there) and is near the Fulton Opera House. On the map, it shows 3.5 miles as you pass by Long's Park. Unless it is in the middle of the night, you will be lucky to make it in less than 20 minutes.
Not so prevalent in a city where there's enough people to form smaller subcommunities, but in a small town you can't really do that and will need to put in effort to fit in.
Another place to expand your search are these YouTube channels, From Here to There (https://www.youtube.com/c/FromHeretoThere/videos) and The World According To Briggs (https://www.youtube.com/c/WorldAccordingToBriggs). They might help find places your aren't currently looking at.
I just moved to Orcas Island in the PNW after living in cities (Seattle, Anchorage) for most of my adult life. I'm near the one town on the island (which is REALLY quiet outside of the 4 warmest/touristy months). ~4,500 people year round population. Weather is perfect with near zero rain for 4-6 months but a bit gray / drizzly for the rest. It's rarely cold, but decent ski hills are 2h inland.
The population (like a lot of small towns) is pretty old, but I found the small group of newer folks (lots of tech expats) to be really welcoming.
I can walk to the small airport, which has regular $180-$200 flights to Seattle (show up 10min before departure, 45min flight). Ferries are more work but sometimes you want your vehicle on the mainland for a big group of houseguests or whatnot.
I'm 15min away from getting a paddlboard into two mountain lakes-- both are popular swimming destinations for locals. I have friends pulling crabs and prawns out of the water all summer. There are zillions of islands and inlets around-- it's a playground if you're a boater. 4-5 good hikes on the islands with breathtaking views. There's one (never crowded) gym in town with a racquetball court. There's a board game meetup. A few fancy restaurants, one killer cocktail bar, a good locals dive bar. I leave my door unlocked. There's a "village green" with frequent concerts and a Saturday farmer's market. The schools and kids on this island are amazing. Ferries and small planes can get you quickly to Victoria/Vancouver Island, Vancouver (the city), and assorted other cool small/medium towns.
I'm pretty new to this, but am LOVING it. There are downsides-- not a lot of food variety in town, tough to make new friends if you aren't the kind of person who makes the effort. The gray season is long and VERY quiet, so you definitely need to budget time/$ to travel. The schools are pretty understanding about missed days in the winter because of this.
Hit me up if you (or anyone) ever wants to check it out. I'll buy you a drink and talk your ear off about it.
Ohio University is a pretty cool place, though slightly secluded.
https://www.saltwaternewengland.com/2022/07/new-england-prep...
Then I'd look for towns that have had the population grow in the last decade, or at least stay level, towns that are dropping in population often have issues (though if everything else about it seems right, check it out).
And then I'd visit - stay at a hotel for a week and see what it's like, if it seems good consider a longer stay. I would visit in the "worst" part of the year, not the best! So if you're looking at Duluth you'd visit in the winter, not in spring or fall.
Forget eating out. We just moved from a city of 2.5M to a town of 1500, the next biggest town over has 3000. The thing we miss the most is the variety of food, especially Asian food. However that's all we miss and the benefits are many.
Like I said, it’s hot there over the summer, and it’s the red middle of a blue state, but the people are very kind. They have an absolutely wonderful coffee shop downtown, a tiny brewery and pub across the street, a couple nice super markets (not so walkable), and some gas station/markets that are very walkable. We lived five minutes from downtown in a neighborhood. We paid $215k for our house, in 2015, so I’d imagine that price has gone up quite a bit, but it’s definitely affordable.
One thing to keep in mind as you get older: smaller places may not have all the medical facilities you need. For example, if you get an unusual cancer or need a transplant, your family will be regularly shuttling you 2-3 hours to the nearest large city.
I think that being ~50-60 minutes south of Atlanta would be nice. It's small enough, but you can hop right up to one of the world's busiest airports and get a flight to about anywhere.
I think you'd have to elaborate on what you think a good school is and what a good climate is. It certainly gets cold for part of the year in PA and MD. It can be quite humid in the summers too. I've heard it can be tough to find a "good" public school in parts of SC (I looked at some SC and NC schools when I entertained the idea of moving there a decade ago. The scores were considerably lower than most MD and most PA were).
The economics of supporting a walkable downtown are just real tough in many places.
I think complaining about any change is just part of small town America.
that you fit in politically or that your values match, otherwise you could be viewed as an outside agitator.
where agriculture is feasible, preferably with as little non-local inputs as possible (i.e. water)
Will be interesting to see if/how starlink changes this
Intersect that data with crime and population.
Sounds like a cool data project.
I did a stint in a cheap culture wasteland through covid. It may be economically cheaper but the toll it takes on your soul is real.
Honestly, it sounds like you belong in a city. A town isn't just a collection of perfect versions of the things you like from your city, and cheaper housing. That isn't going to exist. The bars will be worse. The schools will probably be worse. The stores will be further away, or else the housing "just off main street" will he more expensive. The social opportunities will be fewer. If you want to be happy with small town life, you need to find the advantages that exist only in towns and not cities: Outdoor recreation opportunities, family to be closer to, or non-social things you can do on your own with more space like gardening.
You'd better be sure about that. Having a favorite diner, grocer and bar and only patronizing those businesses is a world apart from having exactly one option. What do you do when the bartender/regulars decide they don't like you. Or your neighbor, for that matter. The one whose family's been there for generations and is buds with the sherrif.
IMO you should find another suburb that you and your wife like. There are major downsides to small town living you're probably not taking seriously.
