Apart from physiological benefits though, the mental aspect of fasting from my own experience can be quite exciting as well. A 7 day fast was the longest I did so far, but 72h really hit the sweet spot for me. It was like a journey through my mind, I got challenged in very new ways to break the fast and also questioned my purpose in life a lot, as I seemingly live to eat. It was quite shocking to realize how much time I spend during a normal day to: buy food, prepare it, consume, dispose, cleanup etc. The rewards of fasting to me were long phases of absolute clarity and great concentration.
While she couldn’t do the several day fast, we found out that it was quite feasible to do the “one meal per day” thing, which shares a lot of the health benefits, and its a lot more forgiving.
I was under the impression that this was really unhealthy though. My BMI is 19 so I'm close to being underweight. Isn't this unhealthy? Do people fast and not lose weight?
Yes, you say "maybe she had other compounding factors" which is equivalent to saying her case was idiosyncratic. In which case, why try to generalise it at all then?
When I look around the city, I see a lot of underweight women of all ages, including childbearing age — whatever the hell we're defining that as.* Many of them will be underweight by skipping meals, full on fasting, or eating and forcing themselves to throw it up later. This is the society, the mentality we have created.
Some of them I am friends with, others I have never met but write about it. Some claim to struggle with fasting, others fast and mention nothing about the difficulty or ease, and others struggle to eat enough. And some eat whatever they want and don't regulate it at all.
The takeaway is that when it comes to nutrition, there are a lot of factors and every case is idiosyncratic. There are no general rules other than "eat so you don't die", "don't eat so much you explode" and "don't eat toxic or corrosive chemicals". And even then, different people will have different tolerances to not eating, eating too much, and eating poison.
Nutrition is poorly understood, poorly communicated, and the driving factor behind the freight train of bullshit marketing telling people that they need to be wafer-like, elven creatures.
Full transparency, I'm underweight according to what I'm sure is actually a pretty shoddy measurement of weight...ness, but I don't do anything special. I fast quite a lot but I don't actually have a fasting regime, it's not planned, I just don't eat for extended periods of time.
When I do eat, it's really not a remarkable experience so I don't feel a need to change my behaviour. I eat enough to not die or suffer health problems thus far.
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* Since it will be a subset of {all ages}, my reasoning is covered.
Also echo the mental clarity side of fasting. The weight loss was great, but how I felt was even better.
The crazy thing is, if you can get to 7 days, anything past that is just mental and you can go as long as you have the body fat to sustain the fast, provided you're keeping an eye on your electrolytes and not drinking too much water.
Don't you think it's too dangerous to name it essential life experience and recommend it to random people on the internet?
I'm really asking, I'm not knowledgeable about this at all, and my questions stem from pure gut feeling.
It's not that easy. You have to properly substitute electrolytes - sodium, potassium and magnesium. And that is almost impossible without small doses of carbs.
My longest fasting was 42 days. I did 28 days three times before. I'm fasting more or less regularly (once per year) for about 25 years.
Don't do very long fasting without guidance of a doctor. Your heart needs properly balanced electrolytes.
EDIT: I've just seen your other comments here also underlining the need of electrolytes. I still leave my comment here for the other readers ...
From what I've seen there is actually research into it and the weight loss/fitness benefits don't seem to be any better than any other calorie restriction when equating calories (slightly worse for muscle mass when combined with exercise in one study IIRC), and other claims seem overblown.
Layne Norton has a couple of good study reviews (eg. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PyBoKSv2tI)
I recently did a significant amount of caloric restriction, from probably 2500/day down to more like 1500/day. The first day was awful. The second day wasn't so bad. By the fourth day this new amount of calories feels fine. I had to give myself permission to do basically nothing for several days though because I just didn't have it in me.
1) Remove from your mind the idea that huner is suffering. It's all in your head. It's merely a mild discomfort.
If you ate last night and woke up in the morning, you are not hungry. You are just used to eat in the morning. Your body will not suffer any thing from skipping breakfast. It alerady has more than enough energy storage. It was designed to tap into it.
2) Surround yourself in a virtual environment where fasting and accepting hunger is the norm and expcted and obvious thing to do.
Read blogs about fasting. Watch youtube videos about fasting. Read books about fasting. Watch how people who consistently fast are healthy and fit.
3) Understand that there are two types of pleasure. Fleeting pleasures, and lasting pleasures. The fleeting pleasure are the sensual. They are momentary and quickly go away. If you spend your life chasing fleeting pleasures, you will be miserable.
Lasting pleasures - if you can call them so - are mental states. Contentment. Feeling in control of your life. These don't come from things. They come from what you value and the way you conduct yourself in the world. If you have no value, you will be controlled by your desires.
Some people think this is freedom: to do whatever you desire. To me, it's slavery. Because when you follow this path your life will be miserable.
Some people try to cheat by pretending that their misery is actually happiness. You see it in the people who insist that fat is healthy and beautfil and hot!
4) Understand that your mind is distributed. Even if you resolve to fasting, there will be some component of your mind that really really wants to just keep eating. Sometimes it might come out and win. Accept that such a thing could happen. When it does happen, don't be too hard on yoruself. Try to understand why it's happening. But anyway, go back right away. Understand that many other components of your mind want to continue doing the right thing.
And, of course, in mice.
(Still noteworthy if you are trying to understand why fasting seems to help with many different ailments.)
Best I remember feeling in my adult life was after a 60 day fast. Not what I'd do today, or at least not the same way, but I highly recommend every healthy human fast for at least 7 days once every couple years.
The plural of anecdote is not evidence, YMMV, consult your doctor, I don't even play one on the internet, etc.
That being said, I'm currently on day 3 of an extended fast myself.
I read a lot of research last years about the subject, try search for 'fat inflammation'.
Fasting and a more plant based diet seem to reduce chronic inflammation.
All human cultures with abundant food had fasting as a part of their rituals... except for the modern American one... which then spread everywhere through food industry funded "science".
It's not that fasting is healthy... it's the other way around... eating too much all the time is unhealthy. Fasting is the default.
The first time I tried a 7 day fast it was like you described, I made it to about day 5 and I couldn't take it anymore. I've done about six or seven 7+ days fasts and now it's not a big deal, I feel totally fine the whole time. If I haven't kept up on electrolytes, I might get a little light headed when I stand up, but that's about it.
I use an electrolyte mix that has sodium, potassium, magnesium, calcium, phosphorus and iron. It's a bit hard to find mixes that have phosphorus, and that's the main electrolyte that is depleted in refeeding syndrome.
Fasting is not just about not eating for 16 hours in a day. When you break fast, you need to watch how much you eat, and eat a lot less.
If you fast for 16 hours then gorge yourself, your stomach will keep growling and you won't be able to get used to being hungry and think about something else.
After a couple days of moderated eating + fasting your hormone levels will reach equilibrium and you won't feel hunger as intense / won't mind it at all.
It sounds like you went into it without understanding the processes that will be unfolding - you didn't do enough research, otherwise you'd understand the symptoms you described.
The first time you fast will always be the roughest - most challenging too, especially since you've likely been eating highly inflammatory foods your whole life, likely without any break - and so by removing those foods and that inflammation from your body and brain, your brain is going to start functioning differently - and better.
Your brain 1) has to prune the pathways that were dependant on such a high level of sugar in your system (and not running off of ketones), and 2) inflammation has a depressant effect on the nervous system - and so you're essentially self-medicating to depress yourself when eating inflammatory food - and when you remove that, that depression is going to life, so your brain is going to want to start working faster as well - and so there will be pathways that will want to open up again that are no longer being suppressed-depressed.
It's also possible you weren't drinking enough water - or something was off with the electrolytes amount; you don't need any electrolytes or supplements if doing 3 days or less.
Refeeding syndrome is also a myth or rather it's a concept that formed from misunderstanding and poor guidance: "you have to eat small amounts and reintroduce foods slowly so you don't cause X, Y, Z." Bullshit. If you're eating food that's harming you, that you're sensitive to and your body is sending you pain signals for - but then you ignore that discomfort and continue to eat it, eventually you'll get somewhat "conditioned" to it - so you won't feel it as much - but that pain/discomfort/disruption/signal will still be there.
When I break a fast - I've done many 3 days, a dozen or so 5 days, and a couple ~10 day fasts - I literally cook one or two massive high quality and high fat steaks and devour one immediately - and the second usually within 2 hours. I don't feel any discomfort after, and I can feel my body being happy, and my mood lifts as my body knows it has food again; sometimes I'll have kale and a pack or two of raspberries - but I usually only add that on the following day. Simple, non-processed foods that I know my body is fine with - and the steak and kale being highly nutrient and energy dense (for their food group).
I break my fast with, return to food I know my body is good with because I've done the work to figure out (and not only through an elimination diet but also diagnostics that's far more efficient and provides concrete results to follow) - rather than in an unaware-unexplored fashion ingesting whatever I've been relatively unconsciously been eating for most of my life.
It was only in my early 20s a doctor told me to stop eating wheat due to symptoms he saw I had. No one prior to that ever suggested food could have been a source of any of my problems. Soon after that I realized I was allergic to eggs, learning later it is specifically egg whites - to which my mother also later learned she is also allergic to.
The mind is a powerful thing and will allow us to do things that are harmful to us, even pulling us away from, disconnecting us from feeling, suppressing us from feeling this harm that we're doing to our body - whether from food or physical activity. Most people don't do the work to explore, in part because no one has explained it to them thoroughly enough for them to be motivated enough to try.
I'd urge to you to try fasting again - but also to be gentle with yourself, don't be forceful or violent with yourself. Just start doing 3 days at a time to start. Likewise, figure out what a healthy-clean diet is for you - nd do that diet for at least 3-5 days before starting your water fast so then you have good energy and nutrient reserves at the beginning of the fast. And then break your fast with that same diet. If you need help figuring out how to figure that out, let me know, and I'll do my best to help. I plan to eventually write a book on the topic, at least a chapter of it, but I don't have anything complete to share with you yet in this regard.
I'd also recommend you read this other comment I just made - which will help you better understand processes that occur during fasting: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31409602
And here's a 30 minute video by Dr. Jason Fung explaining by water fasting is good, healthy, and safe for us (arguably unless you're underweight and don't have fat reserves to burn): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIuj-oMN-Fk - Dr. Jason Fung - 'Therapeutic Fasting - Solving the Two-Compartment Problem'
Time-restricted eating and concurrent exercise training reduces fat mass and increases lean mass in overweight and obese adults
Maybe body builders lose lean body mass when they fast, but it does not seem to hold true for the average human.
One starts to loose lean mass during prolonged calorie deficit which takes months.
Here one can read about the "safety" of ca 60 days hunger strikes. See the section: "People who died on hunger strike"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_Irish_hunger_strike
The oldest one died at age 29.
Bonus: "Other participants in the hunger strike". Column: Reason for ending the strike
One poor guy got a perforated ulcer and internal bleeding after 13 days.
These people are either overweight or even obese, or just lying to you, or lying to themselves (e.g., drinking juice and coffee, or getting calories elsewhere and not counting it). Also, I guarantee they're completely sedentary.
If you're reasonably physically active (especially if you do any weight training) and you're in a prolonged caloric deficit while already being lean, you will lose muscle mass and bone density, and ultimately get injured:
Firstly, as you keenly note, we need to define terms like fasting. The kind of fasting people are doing for extended periods always includes water, but more than that, for an extended fast, it also includes electrolytes, and sometimes other nutrients.
Secondly, 60 days is a very long fast. While people are going to point out cases of people fasting for a year or more, the fact is that those are in the extreme minority. Most people consider a 10 day extended fast to be a very long one. A sixty day fast is far different, and there are studies that show negative effects of very long fasts, rather than "medium length" fasts such as seven days.
Third, I think it's a bit of a mistake to conflate a week long fast (what the post is about) with a 60 day fast.
Fourthly, most of the people talking about having done extended fasts talk about doing it in the same way one might talk about running a race- with practice. You'll see people talking about one meal a day, then a 24 hour fast, 48 hour, 72 hour, and then a week.
That gives the body a chance to adapt to the fasted state. These are health conscious people doing a health conscious thing.
Lastly, though, an ulcer isn't caused by fasting. Most ulcers are caused by infection, which was only discovered later in the 1980s. The kidney obstruction could be made worse by dehydration certainly, but it's still not causal.
People do need to eat, and extended fasts can be very dangerous, but there's such a world of difference here that I think it's not worth discussing.
That definitely isn't what anyone is suggesting. The people fasting these days for 50+ days with no ill effects are significantly overweight sometimes on the order of 100+ lbs. They can lose 60 lbs over similar duration which would kill someone underweight but leave them still technically obese.
Someone fasting for health will stop once something starts to feel off unlike hunger strikers who experienced serious declines before death. Sudden death from malnutrition during a fast while feeling fine at a normal range bodyweight isn't really a thing.
The 155lbs for a chap in the 1980s was certainly in the middle range. Check his wiki page: for sure he didn't look anorectic in the picture taken at the age 19.
More importantly:
Seems that we are entering the True Irishman or Scotsman territory:
Fasting 60 days is super safe but apparently only if you started with 300lbs, your weight did not drop "significantly" more than 4lbs below 100, you have no preexisting conditions, take balanced drinks with electrolytes (btw at least some IRA prisoners took water with salt) and you may take some nutrients and call it fasting.
Yes?
Check 5 demands 9f the hunger strike.
Nothing about food or medical treatment.
British prison certainly was no joke (solitary confinement as a punishment i.e) but not exactly a gulag.
The research going into this over the last few years is off the charts.
https://www.healthline.com/health/autophagy#:~:text=Autophag...
So, some mechanisms are designed to kick in when you're eating food, and some other mechanisms are designed to kick in when you're not eating food.
By not having any period of time when you're properly hungry, a lot of the body's builtin mechanism never get a proper chance to fully kick in.
Here's to hoping that the cost comes down and insurance starts to cover it.
I hope soon the doctors can find the source of the pain. Kaiser refused to do anything over the course of years. MRI in a couple weeks once new insurance gets around to approving it. Why do we put up with this in the US? :(
Physicians for national health plan. They're actually making moves.
Also, to echo the top commentator, aside from the physical benefits of losing weight; another great effect is the mental clarity that fasting gives since less attention is given to eating and so moving away from living to eat.
Also, sugar drinks is fine I think, and is an easy way to get some energy in moderation.
"We go out of our course to make ourselves uncomfortable; the cup of life is not bitter enough to our palate, and we distill superfluous poison to put into it, or conjure up hideous things to frighten ourselves at, which would never exist if we did not make them."
2. Some of those (cold showers, fasting) have proven benefits. Are you arguing the benefits aren't useful or that all the existing studies are flawed?
There's also 3 of why'd you comment on something if you don't care about it but as I'm doing the same I can't really argue that fully.
1. The heart is a giant muscle and needs balanced sodium and potassium to function. There are electrolyte blends in the market designed for fasting to help with this.
2. You're insufficiently hydrated because you've reduced your drinking intake or haven't replaced the water you would get in your food itself.
3. The body is in a state of hunger and alertness. Your sympathetic nervous system is ratcheted up in awareness of this and in search for possible food. To calm this down, practice diaphragmatic breathing exercises.
In all medical supervised fasting clinics they don't allow a pure water fasting. A small dose of carb is highly recommended for absorbing and buffering the electrolytes.
- One meal a day
- No meat, lacticinia, or alcohol allowed in the meal
- Water allowed throughout the day
But all other things are not equal, so: No.
Only taking the food away or adding low quality food will most likely not solve anything
1. Was the study a human study or mice study?
2. If the study was human, how long should one fast for?
3. If the study was done on mice, what would be the equivalent hours of fasting in humans to observe same benefits? For example, rats fasted for 3 days experience autophagy, but rats would die if fasted for 5 days, so that 3 day cannot be applied to humans without an equivalent inflation of the time frame.
3. Was fasting the trigger or the resultant calorie restriction?
Thanks
Need a human study to answer other questions.
