>But crucially, the presence of this group of people arguably turns the bubble into something else.
I agree with this, it's not a bubble in the sense of 2008. I said so in the comment you replied to! We're in the same boat here.
By the way: I'm precicely in that demographic. I just turned 30 and do well for myself as an employed consultant, but I wouldn't consider buying the dip, unless the dip is at least ~100% of the current market prices (which I don't see happening, but who knows). Going in debt for 30-40 years has zero appeal for me, it just seems like a terrible move. The counter-argument I hear from people my age group is always the same "but then you'll never own anything!" -- then so be it, whats the point?! Even if someone gave me a million Euros, I wouldn't spend 600k of those on a house and then another 300k on renovations, that seems like a terrible waste of resources. With that kind of money, you can buy three small companies in Germany, or stop worrying about retirement, etc. Buying estate = de facto being in debt for the entire career and then some, plus having to pay all repairs, anything. I don't see how that would ease my life at all. If someone wants to give me a house, nice, but buying a house just for the sake of doing so reminds me of a signature I often read on market-ticker.org -- leave the rats race to the rats.
Buying a house isn't for everyone, sure. But this is a serious misunderstanding of what "going into debt" is. You're not buying a TV you'll throw out in 5 years, you're buying an asset class that has a history of appreciating in value over 100+ years that you can get incredible leverage on. In the US and Canada, at least, buying a house for a decent deal (in "normal" times, not at insane prices) is a no-brainer investment.
You mention buying companies...that's just a different asset class, but the idea is the same. It's not valueless the moment you buy it, you now have an asset.
>Buying estate = de facto being in debt for the entire career and then some, plus having to pay all repairs, anything.
Do you think this is all happening for free as a renter? At what point in your life do you plan on not paying for shelter?
Correction - over a time period of decreasing interest rates. Housing, on its own, is a depreciating asset. It is a consumable like a TV. It deteriorates with time.
"Housing always goes up", without an understanding of why it has been going up, can be a dangerous belief and could be one of the reasons why housing at the moment is so expensive relative to rents.
This is precisely the problem. It's not just companies buying up homes, it's also private individuals buying up housing to relist on AirBnB or other sites in order to further extract value out of their purchase.
If you look at a country like say, Japan they don't have this issue because housing depreciates and is not treated as an investment.
Going into debt at the lowest interest rate you'll ever be offered to buy a leveraged asset that's likely to increase in price and reduce the overhead you pay on your largest expense, housing, and hedge against the risk of rent increases and security against the whims of landlords?
> Germany
Oh, Germany. Somehow Germany has escaped the constantly increasing house price effect, as has Japan.
If you owned a house in London its annual value increases would almost certainly out-earn your salary. And you don't have to pay tax on that.
Look, if I had enough money around, I'd maybe consider the gamble. But I don't want to buy property to sell it later, I just want to live somewhere. I'm not interested in placing bets on my salary, and I'm not interested in financial longterm-obligations. Maybe in 10 years I want a year off? What then? Maybe I want to change careers to something less intellectually demanding. Maybe I want to spend 50 hours a week with my kids. None of those are feasible if I need the salary. "No debt" is synonymous to freedom on so many levels in life design. The choice is not even close to me.
I make enough money not to worry about rent, even if it should substantially increase, which I don't see happening anyway, simply because then most people wouldn't be able to afford it and political change would become opportune in election-based systems.
>If you owned a house in London
Whats the point of even thinking about owning a house in London? Seriously. I come from uneducated parents that left me €0 and completely unprepared for life, so in my 20s, I first had to dig myself out of that crap. Now I make a good living, but I'm not rich, or filthy rich, or even wealthy. I have to actually make the money to pay that thing. Look at the development of real estate prices in the last 20 years and tell me that's a reasonable choice if I don't even intend to sell the property later (just to be stuck in the same situation again, with more cash, but in the same dilemma). It's pointless. I don't treat my lifetime-expenses as a game of assets, I opt for quality of life, which I don't achieve by giving it all to some property-owning entity who sells it to me at 3 times the price they paid a couple decades ago. I mean, you can justify doing so, but I don't see me being able to justify it.
That's exactly what you already do if you're renting: you're betting that you will be able to work and earn enough salary to afford the rent, with your adjusted expenses. That's "pfft easy" when you're in 20's, easy in your 30's, okay in your 40's (kids need money, yo), doable in your 50's, oh shit when you're 52 because surprise! economic downturn / medical emergency / anything else that might happen. And now you don't have a place to live in and spending your retirement money to rent one, or take a dip in your quality of life.
If you're not paying for your mortgage, you're likely paying for one of your landlord.
As you say, keeping up with rent is easy (not necessarily, but for those in professional careers) early in life, but as your income plateaus later in your career it starts to become harder to keep up with relentless rent increases.
But then it's in retirement that a lifetime of renting really hurts. Suddenly you have no income anymore other than whatever small retirement benefits if any, but rents keep going up.
Same. Which is exactly why I bought a house in 2011. In hindsight it was the perfect time, but at the time the market was still bumpy. At the end of the day, I had a stable job and needed to live somewhere.
> I make enough money not to worry about rent, even if it should substantially increase
The house next door to me rents for 2.5x my mortgage.
My salary has continued to go up, while my cost to live has continued to go down (I refied at the rate bottom). If I want to take a year off I can either rent out my house or just carry the cost at this point. Buying this house gave my wife and I more flexibility because with some decent certainty (+/- small amounts for taxes/insurance fluctuations) I can tell you what my cost to live will be next month or 24 months from now.
Finally, buying a house with a mortgage is best way for a normal person to protect against inflation. Housing is typically a families #1 or #2 expense, and being able to mostly lock that cost is a huge win 3-5-10 years out.
And you were more likely to be able to because it was 2011. Fewer people can do the same today, at least at a similar comfort level of cost of house to income ratio.
I didn't buy because it was a step onto the property ladder. I bought because it was less of a gamble than renting. I ended up staying in my first house for 17 years, whereas my record under a single landlord was 3.
> Maybe in 10 years I want a year off? What then? Maybe I want to change careers to something less intellectually demanding. Maybe I want to spend 50 hours a week with my kids. None of those are feasible if I need the salary.
During those 17 years I took at least two pay cuts, and multiple 2-6 month breaks between jobs, all affordable because I owned rather than rented. Lower outgoings made it possible to save more, plus my mortgage provider offers payment holidays. No landlord ever did!
> I opt for quality of life, which I don't achieve by giving it all to some property-owning entity who sells it to me at 3 times the price they paid a couple decades ago.
I mean, isn't "paying rent to a private landlord" doing just that? Except "sells it to me" is actually "allows me to live there, until they decide not to" and all the money you spent is gone.
† I lucked out with a lump sum/windfall through my employer; I'm making no claims that getting a deposit is easy/attainable
Indeed! I've taken a long break from working to be with my child, which I could afford to do only because I'd bought a home years earlier. If I'd been renting with ever-increasing rents I never could have done that.
I don't know how things work where you are, but here in the US if you are renting, you are essentially helping someone else pay their debt. And they can kick you out when they please. The main benefit is that you can stop paying on a much shorter time scale (1yr lease contract?) or take time off, but if you don't rent you should require a smaller cash flow which should be possible to save up for.
One last thing, don't forget that you can sell the property in the future (or even rent it out, hence letting someone else pay YOUR debt). That should factor in your cost/benefit calculations. Even if it does not appreciate at crazy rates like the current insane market has led us to expect, it will very likely be a lot more than zero.
Renting vs buying comparisons need to account for lot more than those two numbers but that's all I see posted most of the time.
This is generally true because prices generally go up. My brother almost bought a $200K condo in SF 30 years ago but it was slightly out of reach on his $60K Sun micro income, and his $500 room for rent was cheaper. The condo has gone up about 8X and rent (assuming market rate, it was under rent control) 5X. So as expensive as it is to rent in SF, it’s relatively more expensive to buy. It’s unknown if that trend will continue. It doesn’t seem rational but the city seems intent on continuing to severely restrict supply.
The rent/but dichotomy really comes down to what axis of “freedom” you want to optimize for, and if you want to stay in the house and area more than 10 years.
No debt is indeed great freedom in general.
But housing is different. Do you plan to live somewhere? You still have to pay for it. For as long as you live you'll need to live somewhere and that means paying for it. Whether you call it rent or mortgage, you're still paying, there's no escape.
So, within those constraints, it is better to invest in a house than to enrich someone else for the rest of your life.
I hope that was sarcasm since housing in Germany has gotten super expensive.
To a large extent house prices are sensitive to interest rates. A bank will look to your income and say you can make a monthly payment of $X. At historically low interest rates that’s gonna mean a bigger loan. As everyone’s ability to borrow goes up, so do the prices. As rates rise, for the $X dollar payment, the ability to borrow declines, and that puts a down draft on house prices.
Oh boi. When you buy this you are giving all this benefit to the seller that takes these into account. You are not making a profit off of it unless the value increases more than the market expectation for it.
So its a leveraged bet that it will be better than expected by the market, and if it goes the other way you are toast.
You wouldn't buy a house unless it was essentially free? A dip of ~100% means prices at ~0% their current level.
> Going in debt for 30-40 years has zero appeal for me, it just seems like a terrible move.
Debt on its own doesn't matter so much. You already know that you will need to live somewhere for the rest of your life, so that expense is unavoidable. The question is whether you want the amount of that expense to fluctuate according to the market, or if you want to lock in a steadily-decreasing expense with a 30-year fixed rate mortgage (steadily decreasing in real terms, because $100 in 30 years will be worth $50–60; yes, property taxes are likely to increase, and maintenance will move with the market, but mortgage interest and principal will decrease in real terms).
> Even if someone gave me a million Euros, I wouldn't spend 600k of those on a house and then another 300k on renovations, that seems like a terrible waste of resources. With that kind of money, you can buy three small companies in Germany, or stop worrying about retirement, etc.
$1.05 million is hardly enough to live on. That's just $35,000 per annum. It's not nothing, and I surely wouldn't sneer at a gift of $1.05 million, but it wouldn't let me retire today.
So is $1mi. For a lot of countries, this is money you could retire on.
I somewhat agree with your argument. Housing costs more than other assets compared to its economic value, exactly because people have an emotional reaction to the idea of owning it - or the idea of not owning it.
However I have seen middle-class people overextend themselves to 'buy the dip', while their equally wealthy peers sit it out, for over 15 years now. Many of the people who did the former now consider themselves to have got a bargain, while many of the latter changed their minds and ended up buying several years later and at much higher prices.
I'm definitely not arguing that this makes buying right and renting wrong! Just that so far, this is how that choice played out.
I am curious what you guys think of this statement. I think the idea is if the potential rent you get out of your investment is too much under one percent, you might be better off investing in something else?
Now imagine a smallish 4 bed, 2 bath, 1,638 sqft built home on a 5,861 sqft lot in Longmont, Colorado (so not exactly a city but my preference because municipal fiber) that has a sticker price of USD 499,900. I can't imagine paying USD 4,999 every month in rent for this house at the moment. What gives? Is rent too low? My instinct is home prices are way too high but it can't just be "dumb money" keeping prices high, right? Eventually, there should be more supply causing prices to drop? Is something preventing this correction? If so, how do we fix it?
That's not the best way to look at it.
Unless you plan on being homeless, you're already inevitably committed to a monthly housing payment for most of your life.
So the decision becomes, do you pay someone else to enrich them and commmit to having to pay for the rest of your life? Or do you invest in something where you partly pay yourself and there is an end (even if far) to the payments, so when you're old you no longer have those monthly payments?
What are the closing costs of purchasing a whole company? How much would you pay for an accountant to go over the books and a lawyer to go over the forms?
I don't know how much homes cost in Germany, but surely if people have 600k to spend, they would buy companies too, would they not? Why do they buy homes instead?
