Ask HN: junior hedge fund programmer - what is fair compensation?

You have basically no practical experience, and you're worried about getting "fair compensation" for this job? You should be taking this job to absorb as much practical experience and knowledge you can get -- thats the opportunity for you; not some mediocre paycheck.

Question for you, if you don't mind. How did you get to this point, where you have a job offer? I am also self-taught with 0 professional experience in NYC and would like to be in your shoes.

From what I understand about the hedge fund market (a friend of mine is the CTO of a hedge fund who worked his way up as a programmer), especially for NYC, is to expect a low salary, and make it up with the end of year bonus.

No idea how much things have changed since he told me this (a couple years ago), but that's what I got.

Sounds like you have a bad recruiter. (2) is a situation that should never happen, as they get paid by a percentage of your base salary.

That said, it also sounds like you're in a situation where it's incredibly difficult to negotiate. I'd say take whatever they give you and kick ass at your job. You'll build up your resume, and in a few months if you believe your underpaid, you'll have something to negotiate with. Moreover, with something substantial on your resume you won't have any trouble moving elsewhere.

If you're worried about your recruiter, I'd recommend calling TTS Staffing and asking for Morgan, he's the best that I've dealt with in New York.

Salary for a junior developer can be anywhere between $80K-120K with a bonus range of 10%-50%. This is based on nothing but 1-2 years of experience and a CS degree. Most companies will not deal directly with you if you came with a recruiter. The recruiter makes about 20-30% commission on your BASE salary so they are motivated to get you the most money and close the deal (which means you need to accept it).

What level is your degree in Math or Physics? What specialized experience do you have in programming quantitative finance applications? What specialized experienc do you have in high performance computing applications? Do you have business side experience in trading - what markets? ...So, then you know nothing of the business, nothing usefull to the developers and nothing usefull to the quant team... I'd back of the "negotion" until you have something of value to negotiate over. And it's probably not a good idea to piss off the recruiters at this point in your career - it is a very small an incestious world

I'd say around $80k-100k plus bonus, but tbh, without a CS (or physics/maths) degree, you're pretty lucky to even get an offer as most hedge funds won't even consider you for a programming position without one.

Not sure if this is the case here, but in this business it's common that compensation is structured as: base salary + guaranteed year-end bonus + performance-based year-end bonus. The offer would include only the first two items. The base salary should be similar to an average salary as a software engineer that you could get elsewhere. The guaranteed part of the bonus can vary anywhere from 10% to 100% of your salary; it really depends on the company and your position (in your case, you should expect a lower number). The non-guaranteed part of the bonus is where the real money can be found, though, and that cannot be negotiated. It will be based on your personal performance and on the performance of the company each year. So bargain carefully for the first two components of the compensation, but remember that the third component is where the real upside is. In other words, especially with your almost non-existent experience (no disrespect), you should take whatever you can get from them. Assuming that you want to work in that business, of course. I hope this helps.

I spent about a year working at a non-quant hedge fund out of NYC, and I saw people in similar-sounding situations making $100-125k base, plus another 20-50% in year-end comp ("bonuses"). Recruitment bonuses (or "relocation incentives," what have you) vary widely, too, but seemed to be usually in the lowish-five-figures range.

Of course, I don't know anything about your particular situation; maybe the firm you're talking to has specific interest in you that will take them higher!

Also, like some others have mentioned, your year-end compensation ("bonus") is a big chunk of your take-home---but hard to anticipate ahead of time. Even within a team there can be huge variance (depending on your individual awesome) so the "mean" or whatever figure they're willing to give you doesn't really help.

Fair compensation is established by your current market value. Try to get another bidder,i.e. a second job offer, tell the first guy what the other guy is willing to pay. Bluff if you must but don't push it, in your case you need them more than they need you.

Advice that I have received that has been helpful when negotiating compensation is:

(1) A good way to dodge being the first one to give a salary number is to say that you will consider the total compensation package offered, of which the salary is just one portion.

(2) If you do get an offer and want to negotiate, but are scared that you will put them off - make sure they know from your response that you are very interested in the position and the offer, but based on your understanding of the job responsibilities and your skills were expecting something in the range of x.

Dude think of this as laundry for your resume. Once you come out of there, you'll be able to land jobs at much higher rates. Plus, the bonus thing does sound good.

Don't talk to the employer about rates during this process. But it's OK to dangle carrots, such as your special ability to solve x type of problem if you have anything like that, something that will make it more likely for the employer to tell the recruiter "I want this one hired."

Also start looking for other offers so that if you do end up wanting to say no to this one, that will be easier to do.

In this part of the world (Hungary), if you say "I want to make between $X and $Y", it translates to "I'll work for $X". Assuming $X is sensible, they will offer you $X minus 20-30% (sometimes even 50%). You can try to negotiate, though BigCos won't negotiate with a junior guy. Also, negotation is a tough art, and the person at the other end is much better than you, and is holding all the cards. You want the job real bad, but he probably doesn't want you real bad.

This doesn't apply if you're special, but if you're a junior, you're not.

(3) is only going to happen if you insist. People generally make offers serially, from the candidate they're most interested in, to the one they're least interested in (but still interested in hiring obviously). If you ask for too much, they'll let you know.

Take the job. After a year, once you have the experience, you can move on. Or they will offer you more money, because you'll have proven yourself. Either way, you'll be better off, and you'll know what market rate looks like.