The simulators today are fantastic. The skills you learn in the simulator are 100% transferable to real life, and they happen without you having to think.
I went 9 years without using a sim and then two years ago started using it.
What gets transferred immediately are how you turn the steering wheel, catching the car in slides, and your gas pedal application while this is happening.
People often forget that our bodies are complex operating systems and they are operating distinctly. There is plenty of documentation that shows mirroring for knowledge transfer works, and when you use a sim the habits that you develop are available subconciously to you.
I'll give you two examples, the first is at my last race in Global MX-5 Cup at Laguna Seca. At the start of the race on the opening lap I was going through the corkscrew and got hit at the apex of the right hand corner. The car immediately went into a large slide because of how much steering input I had. I immediately started to correct with both steering input and gas pedal application. I had to correct the two slides to save the car. Immediately upon impact my body was doing what I needed to do, it was completely subconscious, so much so that the only conscious thought I had was, wowee fun, just like the simulator. There was no fear, despite the fact that the slide was massive and I was likely to hit the wall if I didn't catch it.
The second happened a couple of months earlier. I was testing at Sonoma in my BMW m235ir for a Pirelli race. I was going out on old tires, that we were going to swap for fresh ones at the next session. Going through the double right hair pin, I applied a bit too much throttle, car started to slide, I was correcting, but under corrected and went back to full throttle too soon. The car spun, hit the wall, caused $10,000 in damage. The reason that happened was whenever I played the sim I always kept my foot in the gas. Just trying to save the car and have fun. Then I realized, that when I use the simulator I can't approach it from a "fun" mentality, because my brain is remembering what I'm doing. I have to treat it like real life, or I will do something stupid in the car.
There are certainly differences between how a real car handles and a simulator handles, but the skills are the same and what you are really honing is the ability to control the car which is completely transferable. The brake points are very transferrable so it is a great way to push yourself in a simulated practice to get ready for a real race. Learning the track is obviously a benefit.
iRacing has done a fantastic job at all of the above. Coming from a tech background I'm actually blown away by the realism and how much it teaches you transferrable skills.
If you take one of the top 5 people in iRacing that's never been in a car before and put them into a race car they will be quick. This is because everything that will be happening they have already trained for. They won't have fear because everything will feel the same. As long as you don't have fear, and have the underlying skill, subconsciously you will do what you need to.
The reverse isn't as true. Being quick in real life doesn't mean that you will be fast in the simulator. This is simply because it can't replicate the physics 100%. In iRacing it is very sensitive to understeer as you enter a corner, where in real life you can get the car to slide a bit more with some hard inputs into the steering wheel.
But overall I would say it is a 90%+ effective tool, so much so, that anyone who isn't using one in pro racing today, is really at a disadvantage.
The other thing that is critical to racing is practice. Any sport you take seriously the more time you spend doing it the better you will be. Unfortunately racing is extremely expensive, and so no one but the absolute pros can spend as much time as they would like in a race car. Being able to hop on the simulator, at any time, is amazing to help you continue your training and stay sharp during the offseason, or at times like this when all racing is pretty much cancelled.
Anyone who is saying that this isn't transferrable is simply incorrect. They've already taken pure sim racers and put them behind the wheel of real race cars and those people did phenomenally well.
There is more strain physically in a real car, g-forces, breathing, pulse will be higher, but these things are much easier to train for.
There is a reduced amount of feedback certainly, one of the biggest issues for me is not getting a great feel for the brake pedal, but this is where muscle memory comes in, you keep doing laps and refining and your muscles will recognize what inputs you need even though the g-forces aren't there.
Furthermore I tried VR iRacing for the first time and it was insane how amazing the VR is. It is completely life like, just missing the rush of air around me.
I was at Road Atlanta doing laps and went through the last corner on my first lap. You come down a massive hill, hit the compression, and turn right into the fastest corner of the track where you also have walls on both sides that are very close. This is not the corner to fuck up. There is tremendous g-forces in this corner in real life. On the way down the hill I feel fine in VR. The second I hit the compression I get dizzy. This is because my eyes and everything around me is recognizing this part of the track and my body is tensing because it remembers real life. But my body isn't feeling the compression. So the difference between what my eyes see, my brain interrupts, and the lack of sensation in my body is making my brain go haywire and makes me dizzy.
The first time I just thought it was odd. The second lap same exact thing happens. The third lap again. It happened every time I had to take the VR off because I started getting a headache.
Anyway those are my real life stories. If there is anyone on here racing or tracking their car I highly recommend they get a great sim and install it in their house. It will be a lot cheaper than tracking and infinitely less expensive than racing and it will tremendously improve your skills.
This is probably less relevant for top of the sport racers, but if you watch today's youngest F1 athletes all of them do sim racing and all of them are extremely quick. Specifically Lando Norris and Max Verstappen.
However, when using the pretty amazing racing sim setup at Turner Motorsports (NH based BMW shop who runs some successful race cars) I couldn't make it a single lap without spinning out. There's a lack of physical feedback that kept me from feeling the approaching edge of traction or the frame balance shifting, etc...
One my friends who would always beat me in any racing games, has backed into his own mailbox at least 3 times.
So... :)
Pilots can’t stand flight sims as training tools, and actively dissuade student pilots from using them.
I’ve always found it strange, especially in the world of VR.
Building up the radio call muscle alone would be worth the sim practice imo.
Running costs for me are ~$500 / 2-hour day on 100-TW tires. These cars aren't exactly light, so they eat through consumables. Tires are the largest part, then repairs, then brakes. This doesn't count fuel.
If I had to guess for OP in PWC, 50-100% more, mostly driven by slick costs.
EDIT: added fuel note
I've never found a rally driving game that handles like a real car. The physics always seems off - in Dirt Rally (the last one I tried seriously, and the one that everyone raved about), the car still seems to have the old physics of pivoting around the centre of the car, but whatever, it's miles off. The mini cooper in there is about the same power and weight as the Skoda Felicia that I drove, but it behaves nothing like it. I wish it did, as I no longer have the money or time to do anything like this, and if it felt anything like the real thing I'd have a fun hobby to take part it. But I always get hugely frustrated when I can't get anywhere near what I used to be able to do - place the car with precision on the road, get a good rhythm up and start to flow, and don't seem to be able to adjust to the way the cars handle in these games. I'm sure some of it is that you can't feel what's going on - through the seat, steering wheel and pedals - in the way that you can in the real thing, but I think there's more to it than that.
Forza was pretty different - even playing it using just controllers showed that it was handling much like a car would on track (I've done some tarmac rallying as well, so I'm used to the limit on tarmac as well as gravel), but I'm not really interested in circuit racing, alas!
For what it's worth, my real car pivots pretty much where my seat is positioned, it feels surreal sometimes, ironically like I am in a video game.
Then I started driving and realized it's not quite there. It certainly taught me about proper corner entry, but not the visceral parts of it.
Even good simulators are like those "virtual rollercoasters". Not quite the same.
And like you said, it's very much the "I can't feel it in the seat, I can't feel the vibration difference in the pedals, frame and wheels".
If you're paying attention when driving on snow and ice, you can "feel" when the back of the car is "light" without actually kicking it out. You don't get that in these sims.
Counterpoint:
In 2013, TopGear took a top rated iRacing competitor (Greger Huttu) and put him in a proper race car. Yes, he had to bow out due to the physical stress eventually. However, He did really well while he lasted. I think it's a stretch to say "they are nothing like the real thing".
It's not just those hardcore simulations that translate well. Even standard console games like Forza and GT are good at predicting real world talent. Yeah, the first time these people get behind the wheel of a real race car, they will be sore af and probably puke all over the place. But a workout routine will build physical endurance and most people overcome the nausea eventually.
A dozen or so people have graduated from Sony's GT Academy (online racing competition) and gone on to racing professionally.
The thing you have to remember is that it takes a demanding and specialized workout routine to get an experienced race car driver to the point where they can hold their head up through a turn in an F1 car. Some of the other demands put on a driver's body during a race are pretty crazy as well, particularly on a hot day.
The question is whether you can keep that level of focus and consistency for 2 hours of a real race under all that physical strain. And most people just can’t. That’s what’s impressive about real racers, doing all this stuff at 6 lateral G.
They really are like fighter pilots.
I used to race my modified turbo 500hp and I can tell you that game racing is nada to real life racing. Even knowing that taking a risk can cost you $$$ or your life is stressful enough.
With other cars on the track it’s many more variables to calculate and consider.
So let’s not kid ourselves. The delta is larger than one can anticipate without even factoring the physical stresses.
There's still a big difference between the two, but "almost nothing in common" is not an accurate description. And there's a reason the top guys on either discipline can switch over and still be quite competent–if not world-beating–on the other side.
All of the top teams use simulators based on commercially-available simulation engines to develop the car and solicit feedback.
The skills are largely transferable for many drivers. There are a few odd cases–Michael Schumacher famously became too motion sick in the simulator to use it–but those are exceptions. Maybe you're one of them (and if so, you're in very good company!)
FIFA is a game.
The difference is simulator's main focus is reality, games' main focus is fun.
If FIFA was for reality it would be closer to first person QWOP than isometric view of half of field where you have perfect information and you press a key and your player does whatever trick the key was designated to perform.
The substance of the game is lost and only visuals are left.
Not that I would consider FIFA a sim, but I have to assume that, like racing, at least some knowledge of the strategy carries over.
The reason why the question is interesting is because I love the notion that you can train in a less expensive context and then perform in a higher stakes one. I'm interested why some domains allow that and others do not. Flight simulators are another interesting case where mechanical skills transfer, but that's only a small part of what real world flying really is. On the other hand, by all accounts, drone racing sims are quite good for learning how to fly the real thing, since it's almost all mechanics.
Do you mean for combat flight simulation? Because flight simulation for commercial flight can pretty accurately replicate the whole experience, not just the mechanical skills, when you include people playing the role of ATC etc.
that feeling of the center of rotation shifting is extremely helpful when loading the car, and sure you can just go by track memory on sims, but it's not the same thing.
Other drivers which mostly take their information visually, they tend to do much better and have less issue adapting.
Obviously the feel is not the same, but many drivers use it for training and find it quite enjoyable and useful. To dismiss it because you don't smell fuel and tyres or get g-loads in the corners is too simplistic.
A flight simulator without a good instructor is a great way to learn dangerous fundamental habits you'll spend many dollars in an airplane to correct. (Ask me how I know.) Some people can never fully correct those habits.
You'll also be significantly out of pocket. Still, it's being done.
(I'm an iRacer, not a very good one, but I've also been on racetracks in a modded road car on V8 ute supercar training days doing ok to mingle / being traffic with the fast guys and can say 100% that the skills transfer).
Pro Gran Turismo players have been banned from competing as gentlemen drivers because they're too good.
For folks not familiar with the concept of a "gentleman driver", there are plenty of racing series that pair amateur drivers with pro drivers to compete in teams. Historically, the gentleman driver provided the funding for the team. These were wealthy enthusiasts who were often quite good, but not good enough to be professional.
However, it's not actually required that the gentlemen driver fund the team. This encouraged teams to seek out the best non-pro drivers possible, which in this case, happened to be some pro Gran Turismo players.
https://jalopnik.com/expert-gran-turismo-drivers-cant-race-i...
I will acknowledge that Formula One (and similar like IndyCar) are on a whole other level compared to most other 4 wheeled motorsport though.
I was a winner at Playscape Racing
This brings to mind, when Jeremy Clarkson did this segment on Top Gear, where he "practiced" going around a certain turn in a certain car on a Sony Playstation (forget which model, maybe a 3?) and then tried to do it in real life.
Totally different! IIRC, the biggest thing was, that he knew he didn't have his life on the line on the game, and he totally knew that in real life.
I've had the experience of having a rifle pointed at me during a street robbery. (I was the victim.) There's something very visceral, something operating at a level way below verbal consciousness, where you KNOW your life is on the line.
A good simulation obviously only lets you see from the eye position of the driver, so the complaint is usually that you see less than in a race car because you only have a small screen and a poor sense of depth. Today I hope anyone serious about “pro” level simulation just uses VR. It gives stereo depth, you can look out side windows etc.
Obviously if you run a racing sim in an office chair with a cheap pair of pedals and a cheap steering wheel then it’s not going to be close to the real thing.
Real life engineer made a data analysis between a virtual F3 car vs real F3 car, keep in mind rfactor is an old sim from 2005, sure you can't (Yet) replicate the g-forces of the real thing but everything else is pretty close.
https://drracing.wordpress.com/2014/01/03/how-close-is-close...
"From lap time simulation to driver-in-the-loop: a simple introduction to simulation in racing"
https://f1esports.com/news/esports-star-enzo-bonito-defeats-...
But in the context of sports-as-trillion-dollar-entertainment-businesses, what is interesting here is not whether simulated racing is the same as racing IRL for competitors, but the degree to which it is the same for spectators.
Your comment still stands, though!
Once again, random person on HackerNews, or the words of someone who has successfully made the leap:
"Of course you feel the G-force which you don't in the game, but you're so tightly strapped into the seat, that it's not really an issue."
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/gamesblog/2014/apr/07...
Here's another eSports star on the track:
https://futurism.com/sim-racing-virtual-motorsport-beat-form...
https://f1esports.com/news/esports-star-enzo-bonito-defeats-...
These guys are not down at the local track on the weekend, lapping grandpa; they are racing competitively at a high level. Obviously sitting in your living isn't the same as the track, but stating "almost nothing in common" is certainly not the case.
(What did you race?)
It isn’t so much a question of realism, but usefulness as preparation and working out a plan and a rythm.
Of course, playing Kriegspiel is nothing like actually standing on the battlefield in the era of Bismark, but nevertheless, the generation of officers who were trained in the simulation were better prepared for their first battle than those who weren’t.
The Discovery channel had an episode of "On The Inside" where they profiled the Benetton F1 team. There was a lot of talk about how going into a turn and pressing the brake was like doing a one legged weight press while going side ways at multiple Gs. They showed all the conditioning that went into preparing for this etc etc
Then, they interviewed the team doctor who described how he got a chance to sit in the cockpit during a wind tunnel test. His recollection: "Everyone talks about the side to side Gs but honestly, after just a few minutes sitting in the cockpit with race condition wind speed, I could barely hold up my head. These guys really are super men."
Thinly veiled attempt to use online comment forum as a personal blog.
At some point I think it had over 50k viewers
Heres the link of the channel of the one behind the idea:
I think its worth to mention that all the profits of the stream and donations are going to charity
It was casted by actual tv commentators and it had media coverage from major sport newspapers: https://www.marca.com/esports/fifa/2020/03/21/5e763cd522601d... https://esports.as.com/fifa/Torneo-FIFA-20-Ibai-LaLiga-Chall...
The best was when the singer failed despite sounding identical to the track, since he was singing over himself.
I wish I could find that video.
https://web.archive.org/web/20090122035037/http://blogs.seat...
Sports like track & field are somewhat in the middle but they're just timed. It would be feasible to just have people do these alone in standardized conditions with a single moderator.
the rationale is that driving is not just a challenge of operating the controls, but a physical challenge too. when you take away the physical aspect, the drivers lose not only the advantage of their physical training, but also an important input that they use for reactions.
The other sensory inputs are a factor, but most drivers adapt very fast to it. Give them enough seat time and you see them top of the charts, they are not pro real life drivers because they lack reflexes or understanding of racing dynamics.
This is a feature I'd love for sims to better develop. It shouldn't be massively difficult to do so hopefully we get it sooner than later.
Can someone please tell me they did not turn a strong recommendation to avoid public events (which lead to the competition being cancelled) into an opportunity to gather tens of people at one place?
Let's face it, most of the Olympic games are boring. If we can model things in the virtual world good enough, the Roman-style arena games would be more popular than the Olympic games.
In it, Nissan has a driver that was a gamer, and converted him to a professional driver!
Reference: https://wtf1.com/post/juan-pablo-montoya-won-a-sim-racing-co... https://www.essentiallysports.com/f1-news-juan-pablo-montoya...
It's well known that a lot of pro soccer players spend a lot of time on consoles, to the point where they complain if they feel their virtual stats are too low.
It was less intimidating than a child's go-kart.
Will be pretty fun to watch how these drivers play out in the simulated races! imo they are probably going to get pwnd.