My plan :
- continue learning while on the job
- prepare for interviews so that I can apply to companies that are friendly to side projects (stripe, gitlab, github and a bunch of other such companies. Please mention companies that are ok with remote workers and are side project friendly, even startups paying $30,000 work for me)
- build side projects in my free time that demonstrate my skills
- maybe participate in Pioneer.app tournaments so I can network
- basically work on stuff that won't become a company
- once I get a job at a more side project friendly company, I'll start working on my ideas.
As you can see, it's quite a shitty situation to not be able to pursue my side projects that could become companies, but it is what it is and I want to make the most of the next year or so. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thank you.
To me, this is an indication that we truly have not progressed beyond wage slavery. I believe such clauses should be illegal.
I think one thing we might be able to do is to create a list of companies that have blanket clauses like this and then some people (not most) will have the luxury of boycotting them. I see this as a human rights issue actually. It is an attempt to trap an individual indefinitely in a labor mode.
And yes, it's extremely common and a standard legal practice. So was outright slavery for many thousands of years. However, attempting to claim unrelated work outside of office hours is a violation of natural rights.
Are you saying that I still may not be legally in the clear? If so, that is incredibly insane, and I can't believe clauses like that actually exist.
Not sure how I made it this far without knowing this was a thing, but goddamn that's infuriating.
edit: brb gonna go sift through all the shit I signed when I joined
Be careful about declaring your side project unrelated to work. Your definition of unrelated might not match your company’s definition.
If you are programming for your company, and programming for your side project, they’re related at that level at least. I realize they might still be 100% orthogonal, but your employer and the law don’t usually see things the same way you do.
For my last two jobs, I had a side-project before I interviewed, and when it came time to decide on their offer, I had a lawyer write an exclusion for my side-project, legally declaring it unrelated to the company’s business and legally allowing me to moonlight. Getting the lawyer to write it up seemed expensive before I did it, and then seemed like it was both inexpensive and invaluable insurance after I did it. Both companies signed and gave me offers. Asking for the exclusion didn’t seem to hurt my prospects.
On the positive good-news side, you probably are legally in the clear. And also, most companies don’t initiate legal action against employees with side projects. In the few cases I know about where legal action happened, there was more to the story and/or the side project was clearly related to the company’s business.
Make sure you Never use company resources, and next time, consider getting a copyright assignment exemption before beginning work.
The reality is that it probably isn’t really likely all companies are out to steal your personal work through dubious copyright assignment agreements, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be super aggressive.
You're not necessarily guilty of anything per se, but if your company decides to sue you, they have that right.
It's standard practice to include this in employment contracts as protection, but it'll be up to the court to decide if what you worked on actually falls under the umbrella of your employer's IP. In practice, the company can't blanket tell you you can't work on anything, ever.
https://www.employmentrightscalifornia.com/can-my-california...
I have mainly worked at non-profits (gov, inc, edu), and even these own all your work.
The only way is to develop your idea, which has to be unrelated enough to your work, at a different location, on you own time, with your own money.
Well there is one lady who got sued because she took her clients with her to a new firm. Didn't start a new company though.
But I have noticed that non-doers love to use this as an excuse to do nothing. In every happy hour/lunch, there is at least one person talking about a great idea but they not gonna do it because their evil employer made them sign bunch of documents. You tell these documents hold a little weight in court and they should go talk to a lawyer, they might agree but never will talk to a lawyer. Next happy hour they are complaining about same thing.
And if you tell them about your side business, they will do their best to scare you.
I work for major tech giant, and openly advertise my business on LinkedIn, resume, carry business cards. No issues so far. I don't talk about it at work or with non-doers.
Not as good as California's law, but still something.
See section 1, about half way down the first page: https://le.utah.gov/xcode/Title34/Chapter39/C34-39_180001011...
Check your own state's laws.
On the other hand, the devil is in the details. You may not be safe still because of these regulations in California.
More importantly, we're almost always only paid to generate IP in a single domain. So if I go home and generate IP for a totally different domain, there's no reason why my employer should have any claim to it.
But many companies will have it in your contract that they own it, regardless of relevance to the company.
This is default here as well (Germany), but I only interpret this as stuff done during work time. So the stuff I come up with and the code I write at the office on my workstation is automatically owned by my employee. That's fine, because if it wasn't, that would cause all kinds of legal trouble should I ever leave the company.
But if I create things in my free time at home, on my own equipment, then that's MINE, and I might start a company from it -- the only trouble might come if there is reason to believe I stole code/trade secrets (e.g. starting a company in the same niche) or my employee might assume I worked on my it during my paid hours (e.g. all of a sudden bootstrapping a 100 employee company, while getting paid 40h a week until yesterday).
Of course your contract is probably very different, but I have a difficult time imagining that what you're doing in your unpaid time is owned by your employee. Logic here is: You're paid to work a specified time of hours per time interval (e.g. 40h/week). What you do there is owned by your boss. Then if your boss wanted to own all you do/come up with outside of that time, he would need to buy that time from you as well. E.g. to own all you come up with, even in your sleep, you should be eligible for a 7*24h/week compensation. Of course this is more morals than law, but well, maybe you just misinterpreted the wording?
//edit: Mind the discussion below this thread. IANAL, and my moral point of view might not match the legal reality.
This is a very dangerous attitude. I'm from The Netherlands, consulted a lawyer on this matter, and she confirmed it was definitely an issue. I proceeded to make it explicit in the contract that it only covers IP created during work time and/or on company hardware.
What you're saying is definitely understandable, but in my experience, it's not how the legal system is currently looking at these matters.
edit: see geocar's reply.
That's not entirely accurate: You're required to submit it to your employer if it could be related to your work, see especially §18 (1-2) and §19
https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/arbnerfg/BJNR007560957.ht...
The difference is that I am not allowed to reuse that work somewhere else (e.g. my own project) with my contract, but from what you say that would always be possible. Also what you say means I could always sell work I do on the job to someone else, e.g. a direct competitor. So I am not sure if that's really right ;-)
But same kind of work (programming), and company can possibly use it for their business (you don't know, even if you think you do) or using even similar code snippets in both programs (and that happens, even only in non-business logic parts of the code doing unimportant stuff) would unfortunately lead to a situation with possibility of conflict. After all, they pay you, to program "things that can be useful to them", so that's your job. Does that mean you can sell them this specific program, just because they haven't yet ordered you to write it in your work time? What do you want to do if they order you at work to write something like you have written in your free time? Being sulky? Writing a "totally different" program from your free time program just because you want to waste their time and money? Bringing your home-grown program which violates all company quality standards to work? You cannot win either way. As said before, the time when you did it, does not matter. (Except of course: before the start and after the end of the employment, you are free (from this employer), but as long as you are emloyed, it does not matter if it weekend.) It is all complicated, because it is not just some stupid and easy to follow rules. Law is not what one side thinks is right, but often times a reconciliation of interests, and it gets messy.
Ask yourself: could a reasonable third party, without knowing your or your employers intentions or even technical details, draw a clear line between your free time work and the stuff you are paid to work on, only by looking at your free time project and the kind of work you and your colleages do in the office? If the only product of your employer is monitoring software and you write the stereotypical Tetris clone: yeah, that case might be easy. Real companies and useful free time projects? Not so much.
Also to train you to think like a reasonable third party: think of a bricklayer laying bricks in his "free time". (Sounds a bit odd, doesn't it?) When would this be acceptable, when wouldn't it? Not so easy. Of course you have to give something up for getting paid.
I would suggest not being a salary slave, but that would be hypocritical of me, because I am.
Get paid enough, save enough, make a clean cut, start project later.
Have other hobbies, go out in the sun, meet some friends, life is too short.
As others wrote: the programming is the easy part of a business, you can easily solve that after you lost your chains.
The line I draw: if it is only for my amusement and noone else can access the work, I will do it for myself. (Strictly speaking, this may also be a relevant work, but that's the line I draw. Some may say: daring, some may say: cowardly. Probably right. Both of them.)
Getting an exception for works within your area of work, for which you do not have to to transfer rights into contract supplement, should be possible at reasonable employers, but check before you start creating the work, don't let them think your work as employee will suffer, and if is commercial, a side-business or similar: that's another independent problem to take care of (no competition, maximum work time as required by law may be applicable, and so on). (Contract supplements are done all the time for more trivial stuff, no big deal. The world changes, and so do contracts.) A small employer might even say: if your work is not in this and this business field, we don't care. For bigger ones it will be the other way around: you will have to be specific on what you want to do and some legal department will check business interests, IP problems, if it is far enough away from your departments work, and so on. This might as well limit the work you can do in the company, so check your career plans.
Check if you need to program at all. The ready solution might be available as open source already. These days many employers also have open source policies, giving you some additional free space for your programming projects while employed, see if you can use that to your advantage. If you are good at project management / people skills: let others do the work.
So let's all stop bitching about the lawyers (a lawyer would have written a more understandable and concise text, but would have charged you more) and the law: the world is complicated and full of conflicting interests, don't expect the business world to work like your hobby projects with your friends. Don't be sad, grow up.
Sadly, it sucks even more than some people imagine. So while I'm also not a lawyer, I will gladly play the Devil's advocate here.
If you have a salary, you are actually paid for the work product of the whole month. (As opposed to a wage for time worked.) Well, actually you are paid for honestly trying, but your contract transfers usage rights related to your work, so this has nothing to do with hours worked. They would also have to pay your salary, if they say you can stay at home and do nothing, because nothing to do.
Having your work time limited to 40h a week has nothing to do with transfer of rights, as it is a different realm of law. This is just to protect you (or your employer) from you being overworked. (Cynics might say: this was invented by politicians/unions to get votes, or by employers that don't want their human resources damaged.) Anyway: this has nothing to do with your pay and the rights you sell. It might even work against you, as you have to use your "free time", to get fit for work again. (Yes, yes!) While secondary employment is not generally forbidden in Germany (and contract clauses which say so don't last in court), except for competition, your employer of course needs to know, because he also has a say in whether or not your other activities are against their legitimate interest: e.g. if it is indeed to be deemed competion or you are overworking yourself this way and having this drain your energy away from your employers work might be a valid reason to stop it. (Of course: in the end, the court may decide if one side sues, hopefully in a commensurate way.) But you may say: but this is like overtime (it is not: you did it voluntarily and overtime is ordered), and overtime has to be paid even for salaried employees in certain cases (again: different laws, has nothing to with the rights you sell as part of your employment and only with protection from overworking and your compensation for time because of the imbalance between stipulatory and accomplished hours -- hint: if your employer or a labour court thinks your employer owes you (as a salaried employee) overtime compensation, it is because you are still way below a decent salary ... but this is getting off topic).
So while it is true you cannot transfer your Urheberrecht in Germany, as pizzapill wrote, (because it is connected to you as a person, with one exception: it is transfered to your heirs after your dead, but if you're dead, you rights are very limited anyway) you transfer the Nutzungsrechte (usage rights) as part of your contract. And here the employers try to get as much as possible. Not only because of greed (but we would not rule that out, would we?), but simply for legal safety: you cannot easily disentangle one work from another if it is basically the same in the law (like "computer program" -- if the creation of these type of work is your job). Sure you and I can easily see, this program has nothing to do with your dayjob, but can your employer? In a tiny shop, maybe. In a big corporation: not so much. A big software company has so many fields of business, products and services, your manager and their manager and their manager cannot possibly know if your free time project goes against the business interest of the company if you do it independently of the company, so the contracts generally assume it does. (And it probably actually does: given a big enough company you will most certainly have teams in other divisions building similar things as you do in your free time, even if it is only in some tiny research departement on the other side of the world. And I mean plural "teams": they often don't know from each other. Think your boring business software employer does not do cool IoT stuff in some unknown lab? Think again, you haven't networked enough and don't know your company.) And for the work time + work equipment / free time + private equipment argument: yeah, I would also say so, I am paid for this, but not for that ... but this is a very weak argument. Not only for the obvious reason that it would be very problematic if some employee chooses to do the work for this employer in his free time on his equipment and thus trying to circumvent the usage rights transfer, but also (and maybe more importantly) because this is all in your head and how do you prove it, that e.g. your private work and employer ordered work did not influence earch other. And what about employer-relevant work you were not ordered to do? Say e.g. something you think could be useful at work: this could easily go against your employers interest (if you try to sell it to them or the competition or even if you wrote it and they don't get it), which is at odds with your duty of loyality.
That being said, I doubt contract clauses which automatically transfer exclusive usage rights of your free time works to your employer without extra compensation are enforcable to the full extent in Germany for "everything copyrightable you might create regardless what". (Speaking of contracts, I don't think I have seen it in this form yet, the sane companies write it more like this: if you create some work out of your area of duty, you have to offer exclusive rights to us, like you do for on-duty work, except if it is obvious, we cannot use this in the company.)
So with a dayjob as programmer and writing poems / painting pictures in the evening, you can savely say: this has nothing to do with each other and therefore it is not the business of my employer.
If you want a job at something like gitlab. Hangout on their open-source project, learn their codebase, and send in patches. Even if they are simple docs patches. Send in 50 of those and you will start to learn the devs. Ask one of them what it is like to work there, ask them to refer you, etc. The CEO of gitlab is constantly on HN (I swear he has an alert for mention of gitlab). So, he will likely see this post. My point, take some initiative and try not to go through the conventional recruiter pipe (apply on website and no one ever gets back to you cycle). Doing this, has worked out really well for me in the past, and it will work for you too. Sure, it is more work but gets you ahead of everyone else as you are making an effort. Be strategic about this and really choose who you want to work for and go after them. Having something like, hey, I patched 50 minor typos in your code/docs goes a long way, between you and some nobody!
And ideally don't bring work equipment home (i.e. laptop). This could be used against you. Low probability but high impact for you.
Save the headache and use your own equipment. At the very least have a personal VM that you run to do your personal work on.
It may be that your employer doesn't do that. You would be extremely in the minority. Even connecting to the employers network, either from VPN or at the office (can get everything on the network up to layer 7), even using their DNS server (can log every DNS request), even using their AV software (can read every file on your system, even removable media), even using their proxy (can watch all your Internet traffic and decrypt SSL), or MaaS tools (game over, full access, including keylogging), there is a ton of tracking and monitoring that can be done from the most basic tools. Most web proxies are capable of breaking SSL requests to inspect the traffic and then rebuilding it before passing it on. I work with a technology that does deep packet inspection and full payload capture on every flow that hits the network.
It may be that your company doesn't do any of that. But before you go coaching people to quit their jobs or assume they're not being tracked, you should realize this is extremely common and any company who does not do it is putting themselves, their employees, and their customers at extreme risk when it comes to security. The most basic of malware could bring down the entire company if they don't have a proxy or AV. And if anyone can attach any device to the internal network without needing any controlling software or inspection software, if anyone can send whatever data they want out of the network, it's not a question of if you will be hacked, it's a question of how long have you been hacked and you just don't know it.
They're not using monitoring software to watch your Amazon shopping habits. They're using it to protect the company, their employees, and their customers.
This is everywhere.
"I have a company laptop but there is no logging whatsoever."
I suggest they very well could be logging your web requests. This is very common.
It's not like your manager is necessarily even going to have access to this. They're not interested in what you are doing, generally.
But if there is a serious security problem, or a legal problem ... this will then be used.
If you have an IT department (or person) who pushes updates or otherwise controls (or can control) software configuration on your machine, there is at least a decent chance they are also doing at least some of:
- logging all traffic on company network (+ VPNs, of course)
- MITM all SSL traffic on this network (and do filtered logging based on deep packet inspection and/or endpoints)
- above including personal devices connected to that network
- logging all software configuration changes on your machine
- logging all network requests on your machine (regardless of network)
- logging all crash logs and/or other OS level interactions
- timetracking app usage
- logging all communication layer traffic (i.e. mic usage, camera usage, endpoints)
less likely: keylogging or other direct monitoring.
In my limited experience all of this stuff is too logistically complex for small companies, but as soon as you start centralizing IT servicing at all, you will be offered products with some of these capabilities along with more standard virus scan etc.
Also, I remember that when the GDPR got implemented in the EU, I had to agree on a new contract amendment in which the company legally had to list all the data that was collected on its employees (e.g. emails, personal info like age, address and income, ...).
2. An hour or two every day and code marathons on weekends can get your a basic version of product out in a few months.
3. Never give in to temptation to steal office hours to work on your project.
On this point in particular, if you're doing pet project work outside of working hours, then your employer should have absolutely no say on what you're doing. You wouldn't have them manage your hobbies, your social life or your dating life, that would be unreasonable, same goes for side projects.
Sure, the company will not want him to suddenly leave to launch his company, but the way to combat that is by making the position more attractive, and screening for it when hiring.
The American view on labour seems quite similar to slavery.
Let’s say you’re a scientist. Your employer sets you up in a lab (that you could never afford on your own) and gives you the task of solving a problem that, if solved, would be worth millions to the company. One night you go home thinking about the tough problem. The next morning at home you have a shower and suddenly you realize the solution!
Who owns the solution? Did you solve it by yourself? Can you now take the solution and launch your own company? If the company puts itself up for sale can they claim ownership of the solution?
This is why in the U.S. these “the company owns everything while you’re our employee” clauses exist. Consider them legal laziness: It’s easier to declare ownership of everything than it is to negotiate with every employee over who owns what under what circumstance.
Edit: These clauses are enough to take to trial. At the very least a deep-pocketed employer can scare off investors from investing in the employee.
yea if I am the owner of the company, but if I am the employee, i would want to work on my own project while also taking money from the company.
Different position some time need different way to handle things.
The problem is that the employer pretends to own all Intellectual Properties produced by the employee while in contract. Be it during code marathons, night hours, week-end time...
I used to have a contract of that kind, and I found another job to keep ownership of my weekend pet projects.
They know who you are, and they're probably insecure about their own success.
https://penguindreams.org/blog/why-i-dont-sign-non-competes/
I had a non-compete in a startup contract and I outright refused to sign it. I'm glad I did. They wanted complete control of all the software I wrote too (which up until that point had been GPLv3; all volunteer work). After the startup failed, my efforts in that contract negotiation paid off as I made sure I was allowed to re-release the software as GPLv3. It's currently used by students at the University of Dayton:
I would strongly recommend against remote work if you're plan is to learn about starting and running a company because so much of what is involved must be observed and isn't communicated. How does the CEO talk in group settings? How do they talk to investors? How do employees talk to each other, what do they think of their manager and how is that expressed in their behavior. This is a game of observation which you cannot do on the other end of a web camera.
You make the next minecraft and are making millions after a few months. You now have money to fight back with your own legal team.
Probably the most practical solution here is to simply disregard this clause in the contract. Breaching such a clause would be a civil, not a criminal offense, and it is unlikely that a civil complaint would be even considered unless there was a lot of money at stake, and it was easy/cheap to prove/uphold. In order for it to be upheld your employer would have to spend a lot of time and energy deciding, and then proving what it was you built "on their time".
In other words, given that you don't actively publicize your own personal contribution to a commercial project its very unlikely that your employer can have any leverage over you in this regard.
Just don't do it on company dime and company time. This is what weekends are for, and it'd be up to the company to prove otherwise.
What I get from the OP's question is that the company owns anything he creates, independently of it being done on work time.
* on your own equipment
* on your own time
can be considered yours.
If you want to be extra sure, maybe consider first switching from employment to consulting? A friend of mine was primarily a consultant in pc-game-marketing space and then he founded a company, slowly building out a product.
On the other hand, I get that going for consulting gigs can be daunting, personaly, I prefer the cushy job that is mandated to pay me a salary every month, and to pursue my side-projects, I managed to negotiate a 4 day work-week. In the end the 3 day weekend mostly became a venue for more family time, but I still see it as a more viable future option, than working on a project an hour after my kid is asleep/before she wakes up :D
Negotiation looked like this:
They: so we would like to hire you,what salary would you have in mind?
Me: I'd rather you tell me, but I would especially be open, if I could have only 4 day work-week
They, after some back and forth: ok, we would give you X
Me: To clarify, X for a 4 day workweek? That sounds good!
Them: Ehm, we meant for full week, but no problem with 80% X for 4 day workweek
Me: ah, let me think it through
Them: we can make it 85% X for 4 day workweek, if that would make it better
Me: ok, will let you know ... by friday?
If you want to know about the legal consequences of something you would like to do, take your contract to a lawyer before you do it and pay for written advice.
As for what you can do to be successful when you start a company here's some advice:
1) Network. People make crucial decisions about large amounts of money on reputation, instinct and lots of other intangibles all the time. Build a list of genuine contacts. Build a reputation for competence and integrity so that those contacts think and speak well of you. This pays off more than anything else you could do for getting off the ground.
2) Learn. I don't mean learn certain technologies or do lots of qualifications. Learn about an industry (not IT) and it's business problems. Learn this directly from people doing the work, not from go-betweens or books. Of course learn tech too but tech is pretty easy to get to grips with if you're really a geek. When you match cool tech up to real business problems suddenly you look like some kind of wizard.
That's all well and good when you've already got a business up and running. But is there a way to start building those sorts of relationships before you quit your day job? Only way I can think of is by doing contracting/consulting on the side.
It depends on your specific job but generally you're going to have colleagues and customers. Today's customer might be a future collaborator. Today's colleague might be a future co-founder. Today's boss might one day be a buyer.
For me, the CEO of a business where I was a dev eventually retired after acquisition and some years later helped me to find investors in my own startup. If he hadn't thought well of me I doubt he would have helped.
You can't really plan all these interconnections, so you have to do this generally and that's a good thing.
(This is from the point of view of someone who has largely been a s/w developer building products sold to customers not in tech).
IMO there aren't any secrets method really, just behaviours that are in some respects obvious but also may run counter some instincts people in tech have. Maybe some of these are overcoming introvert tendencies, maybe some are more about getting outside a tech bubble.
Take opportunities to work directly with customers rather than just from specs or via product managers. If you can help out in pre-sales and go meet a prospect, do it. Read the RFP questions and listen to what the client asks. Think about why.
If you can go help out with an integration project for a month or two, why not? Learn about the other systems your customers use and what they love/hate about them.
Talk to actual users whenever you can. When you deal with a support ticket pick the phone up and have a conversation. Be nosey, show an interest in what they're doing and why. Get comfortable saying "I don't know" to people who do.
Read the background on the industry your customers are in. Is there a regulator? Are there industry news feeds everyone follows? Do the large players publish business plans? Read their reports to investors. Identify the key people and follow their output.
There's nothing particularly insightful here and I expect this is beyond what most people want to do early in their careers but if you want to build enough knowledge of an industry to start a business at some point you'll need to do these sorts of things. Most people aren't going to wake up one day with a killer idea like being hit by lightning, or fall out of college into the next Google. The majority opportunities take some knowledge, experience and confidence to recognise.
* Pick a tech stack and get really good at it. You can do it at your company's time and equipment as it is gaining knowledge.
* Give yourself 6 months to blog and contribute to open source on your own laptop. Get something decent to get started. If you feel buying a Macbook Pro or a similar Dev laptop is a huge expense, look for options to rent it in the short term. Consistency is key, ensure that you are pushing out a new post every week.
* Get into a freelancing gig where you are able to set your own times. This will give you a sense of business priorities and how to pitch and get clients. Conduct trainings and workshops and charge market rates for your expertise.
* Then if you really find a problem that needs more than your mind and two hands to solve, by all means setup a company, hire people and do things. As a developer looking for freedom from the man, freelancing is a good way to gain that freedom. Your own employer might hire you on your terms for twice the pay he is paying you currently.
Realistically speaking, unless your side gig is a direct competitor or becomes a massive success, you're probably fine. And you can reduce risk further by not launching your company while still employed, which makes it that much harder for them to notice and/or prove you worked there at the same time.
Your motivation will tank at times... in those moments its extremely helpful to have paying customers--you'll find your motivation replenishes a lot easier.
Market research! If there was one single thing I should have done more of before quitting my job to start a company it was making sure people would buy what I was going to build. If there was one single thing I should have done less of before quitting my job it’s spending time building something I wasn’t sure people would buy.
There are also a number of large companies that will point blank refuse to negotiate contracts, to the point of pulling the job offer if you don't play ball. Of course they will still negotiate when they feel they need to, but you're unlikely to have the necessary leverage if you're only starting your career.
Do not rely on the fact it may not apply, if your idea generates millions, you can be certain they'll manage to draw a connection.
If they can't/won't provide one, you either quit and work on it, or don't.
What they can't seize from you is your thoughts, unless again you're silly enough to begin development without doing the above.
Perhaps you think like that because you are from a third world country and you are used to being abused by your employers.
(And it's not that I am western supremacist, actually I happen to like middle east and asia better)
Look at some inspirational talks by non westerners, like garyvee for example. He's immigrant. He's taken command of the situation. You can too. The only thing enabling him to do so is knowledge, experience, and a unique attitude.
Over the years I've emailed CEOs, CTOs, and PMs of some of the most successful companies in the world (and also a lot of professors), and you know what? Most of them respond. They're just a little busy.
By the way, I have a question. Why don't you just ask?
Opening a dialogue is never wrong nor is it actually difficult.
Btw, read everything here:
1. The employer is paying you to help their product/service succeed. It is unprofessional and immoral to deceive them. I've seen some colleagues do this and I was disappointed in them.
2. Work you produce at your place of employment belongs to the employer. It depends on the contract and I am not a lawyer, but it's best to protect your intellectual property.
BUT I think while you're employed you should try to learn how budgeting, cashflow, capex/opex, taxes, accounting, etc. work.
This will be very helpful for the job you already have, and also for your side project and any future job.
Anybody has any experience with this. How did you got in? What was your experience with it?
We found the tournament valuable, since we were able to receive feedback every week. The challenge of having to submit a progress update each week was also a great motivator.
We eventually stopped participating though, for a couple of reasons. Primarily, based on the time we were spending, and the returns we were getting, it wasn't worth it anymore. As we went on, the comments and feedback we received became less and less valuable, as other players continued to "game the system." I also had some serious concerns about lack of transparency with scoring, which made it hard to understand why we scored what we scored.
That said, a friend of mine was selected as a Pioneer and he says it's a good experience. I like the team and they've been responsive when I emailed them. I think the most important thing is to make sure that as you continue to participate, you make sure the tournament is continuing to provide value to you, like all things. It certainly was valuable to us at the beginning, but eventually lost its value as we grew.
If you have any questions, don't hesitate to reach out. You can contact me through Keybase, which is in my profile.
A company (and person!) can sue whoever they want, whenever they want, for whatever reason they want. The claim doesn't need to be truthful. Frivolousness of the claims doesn't mean it's free for you to defend against. See "nuisance lawsuit." Several companies in SV are known for applying them to ex-employees that didn't breech any legal or contractual obligations.
IANAL. THIS DOES NOT CONSTITUTE LEGAL ADVICE.
Once you have those relationships, learning their problems and proposing a solution to them, and having them pay for it is also likely outside the scope of your job with your employer.
If the problem is valuable enough to them, you can agree to solve it for them for enough money that it will float you for the first 6 months while you develop it. Quit your job, live on your savings, maybe pick up some contracts if you can't raise seed capital, and deliver the product to your customers.
Companies aren't made of code, products are, and there are no products without customers, as otherwise it's just art or a science project. Companies are made primarily of relationships with customers, underwritten by products, some of which are made of code. That direction is not reversible.
I've developed my own software projects, and for a long time tried to figure out how practising something I could pay someone offshore to do for $30k/year could somehow be worth so much more if I could just do some secret thing right. The advice was always scattershot, be more this, do more that. What it came down to was, it's not the code, it's not the features, it's not the design or architecture - it's the relationships.
Who do you have relationships with and what are their problems? If you can't solve them with what you are good at, maybe you need to find new people with new problems. If you can't do that, find someone who knows people who have problems and money, and then partner with them to sell a solution.
It sounds so simple, and it is, but if it were easy, everyone would do it.
For b2b you can start talking to potential clients in the space. They don't own your network.
For b2c you can start finding communities and building an email list. They don't own your audience.
This is great because as a dev it forces you to do the hard stuff first that has the biggest impact on your success or failure. Not coding which is the fun easy part(for coders).
FYI, I am from a developing country as well.
Don't fill up all your free time with other work-related projects. You won't be able to learn as fast on the job if you're constantly depleting your cognitive reserves.
Do sports. Go out. Read a book. Don't load up on side projects you might not be able to finish.
I worked at a small company for a few years before my spouse and I decided to relocate. Today I have a small side business, and everything I know about running that business, I learned from the job that I worked for a few years, a couple decades ago.
Stuff like, find co-founders, identify the customers for the product you want to create, figure out your business model (direct sales? support? freemium? ads?), run numbers on your business model (how successful would you have to be to turn a profit?), how do you file taxes as a business (in many countries the process is different), how will you recruit employees, remote, developers, sales, do you need to incorporate immediately, how do you do that, is there a payroll/benefits provider you should sign up with, how much does that cost, where can you get angel and VC funding for your company, are there any conferences you should go to to identify customers or competitors, etc etc etc.
There's a lot of stuff to do and learn to start a successful company besides producing you MVP. Get them out of the way now and focus on honing your programming skills. And if you don't like thinking about taxes and employee benefits and balancing what you can afford against what you want to provide, well, you might consider just working at a startup instead of starting one.
Most small companies won't even have anything like this in their contract. Larger companies, especially in California, will definitely include this in their contract.
You said you are in a third-world country. Are you getting remote work in a different country? If so, the likelihood that a company will spend the resources to fight you in court in another country is almost 0.
- If you're looking for a new job, find one that has a good work life balance and where you will learn skills relevant to what you want to do. In my case, I was weak in dev ops, so I picked a job where I'd learn that.
- As far as the legal front, a company can't own 100% of your time. When you begin working on your own stuff, use a separate computer, and keep notes with dates. Basically you want to show evidence, in a worst case scenario, that you created this in your own time and not using company resources.
- Then don't tell anyone about what you're working on until after you leave your job. Once you leave, ideally everyone will think that everything you built is post-job.
- Once you leave your job, depending on what you built (if it's competitive with your past job) it's good to tell everyone about it. My early investors were my co-workers.
That's just stuff off the top of my head. Happy to provide more info if you want. And best of luck to you! Starting a company is a hell of an adventure.
1. If you look at the contract, there will almost definitely be a clause where the company will claim rights over all IP that you generate, and that you need to pre-declare any IP that you already own (otherwise they will have the right to claim it). If there isn't, there should be and it's OK to push back against it not being there.
Once that is sorted, write up a declaration of all the ideas that you have had so far for your side hustle and submit it to the company. (You don't have to go into detail: bullet points are fine.)
This gives both you and the employer the protection they are looking for.
2. Starting a business is mostly not about the IP of the software. I have had customers go bananas over something that I spent a day writing. (I have also had stuff that I spent a year writing go nowhere and never sell.)
Most of the ideas that you think are good will be impossible to sell profitably. The first step in any business is establishing that there's a real customer need, and that you can reach those customers. You will probably try 20 different ideas before one works. Buy adwords for them, or do some other kind of outreach to customers and see what works: you also need to go and talk to potential customers. (e.g. every Saturday meet up with someone).
Off the back of this you will eventually find something that works, that's easy to sell and easy to explain, and you will probably have a backlog of customers wanting to buy it. You will also discover that it's probably only a few weeks' work to build the prototype. You can then approach your employer and discuss what you want to do, and get an exemption to the IP clause, or quit and use your savings.
If your first thought on starting a business is to start coding, you're setting yourself up for failure.
At minimum this should be at least one hour a day but 3 hours would be ideal.
Schedule the time and stick to it religiously and you will see results.
- No one can stop you from learning. Learn what you need to to help prepare you to do something of your own. BUT do not use ANY company assets/laptop/network etc. to do the learning/research etc to be on the safe side.
- Build something. Yes definitely. On the side. even if just a concept. Tinker with stuff. Again do it outside of your company time/assets etc.
Remember that most companies won't give a shit unless you actually become big and noticeable. For example, I am sure google won't come after you for creating something that makes you $10,000/Month and you did not directly steal from them. I could be wrong but I am sure google has better things to do.
Finally, Do not let anything or anyone stop you from what you really want to do in life. life is short and It is not worth living it doing things that you don't want to do.
I don’t think this is true. You can always request changes in the contract, and you should consider it. It may seem expensive, but worth it, if you have the money to have your own lawyer read your contract and propose modifications that suit you. It may also reveal to you that parts of your contract were unenforceable.
In my experience, it hasn’t hurt me or anyone I know who’s negotiated their contract. In some cases, because it’s somewhat rare for people to negotiate the non-compete terms, it made me look more confident and desirable than other candidates.
BTW, there is no reason you can’t do this long after being hired and after signing your employment agreement. Companies and lawyers can and do make addenda after the fact all the time.
Second, being a good developer doesn’t always equate to launching a company. The skills you might use to launch something new might not be your dev skills at all. Understanding a problem/solution/market fit requires lots of skills you won’t get writing software. You can/should do customer research, low fidelity testing, etc. to prove to yourself something is a good idea before jumping into a new venture.
Just because you need a job doesn't mean you should accept whatever the company offers. You should be assertive and inquisitive when it comes to these kinds of clauses, especially at new jobs. I've had contracts altered slightly or completely before starting with a company, from things like where and with whom I get to work after I leave, to IP. Even if company says that this is a deal breaker for them and that the clause has to stay, and you choose to accept, I think it's good to at least demonstrate that your objection.
Look for an idea. Then spend time researching the details, the market and the competition. Find your niche. Interview potential customers. Find a co-founder. Start building a prototype as a side project.
> even startups paying $30,000 work for me
Value yourself and your expertise more. You should expect 2x or 3x the mentioned amount from any respectable company, or even more if it's a position requiring expert-level knowledge. You being from a third world country should not affect your paycheck. If you're the same, or better, compared to someone in the SV, you should both be valued equally.
You can get a better paying job, keep the same lifestyle, and save the extra cash so you can afford longer breaks while you work on your stuff, or to invest it, so you have additional cash flow.
I’d focus on an open source project in the realm of what you’re interested in. Email your manager asking if that’s alright, print and save the email. Make it clear it’s on your own time to improve your skills. Later use the open source project to start your own business, if it pertains to it. Otherwise at the very least, you’ll have gained skills and some credibility.
Most initial steps don’t have anything to do with your contract - coming up with ideas, learning, building MVPs, finding real needs in a market.
Once you find an unmet need and you prove that out, then you can think about quitting your job to do it, or doing it while at the job (which i advise against).
Also, you agreed to those terms so I don’t think it’s fair to abuse their(company you are currently working for) trust.
Things like competitive research, talking to customers and meeting possible co founders/team members out in the community. You can set up landing pages and test the market and hire contractors to do some work. Also, talking to customers (worth mentioning twice).
You can also read about starting a company (nolo books are good).
This will give you a foundation when you are ready that will put you ahead of others.
It is reasonable for your employer to ask you not to compete with them. It is not reasonable for them to say not to do side projects. And that phrase, or something similar, is what makes the contract say that. I always ask for it to be put into employment contracts, and refuse jobs without it.
If your strategic in your choice, you can build some experience in what you want to do for your side project.
After you get a little bit of experience at the day job, you can always switch to a new position that is more friendly to what you want to do.
If it is not possible, then work for them for awhile, save up, and try to find another company. Be upfront with the next company about the issue before you get too deep into the negotiation.
if they don't even let you do that, then i would firstly seek a job which does let you work for yourself on your own time, and then start really pushing for your own company. Learning how to do so is free for you to pursue, as long as you don't 'make' anything on the companies' system / resources it should be out of their sight and safe to do.
literally this is your most important job. build a savings buffer of 3 years, at least. the bigger the buffer the less you will feel tempted to abandon it.
-using their IP -using their equipment -on their time
So get your own laptop, work on a side project outside of work hours, and don’t start a company that competes.
Good luck!
Don’t listen to most of the comments here, they’ve been brainwashed into fear and subservience to their employer.
This is a growth opportunity that will often make you more effective at your day job.
Best of luck.
2. if 1. fails, see if investors are interested with what you were able to build
3. if 2. fails, pivot to something you can build, if 2 succeeds, hire 1-2 trusted employees who fill the gaps you are missing
Edit: maybe engineers can team up on this so things start to change?
You need to build strong tooling with abstraction to reduce, minimize boring, repetitive tasks.
Only then, you can maximize your company hours to do your own stuffs.
Start thinking about who you will hire. What will they do? How much do you need to pay them? What skills do they need?
Begin with a spreadsheet. Estimate monthly cash flow. How many employees can you afford? What’s the ROI from a single employee? In the beginning it may just be you. Which employees even contribute to revenue and which are just support? At what point does the ROI of the employee bring in enough revenue to hire a second employee and have sufficient runway for the business? Then figure out when you can hire the third, and the forth, and at what point (if ever) does revenue grow enough that you can start hiring dozens of employees. Does this business still make sense with this company?
How many hours do your employees work? What hours do they work? How much time off do they get? How much does it cost you? As your headcount grows, your revenue should be growing, but your costs also grow. Is there ever time to make big company investments? Better offices or company getaways for morale and team building? Do you even have offices? Where do all these people work? Surely you can’t all just be in a coffee shop somewhere. Do they work remotely? If so then what time zones are they in, and how will you know they can trust you or you trust them? How do you know they won’t steal from the company, or do their own personal work while working on company time?
Who will do your sales? Initially probably you, but not for long, you have other things to do. How will sales people be compensated? Purely commission based? Maybe it works if you have a very high value product, but even then you probably also need to give them a salary to keep them around. How much commission? How long is the sales cycle?
How will you measure employee performance? How will you deal with non-performers? How will you fire someone? With little to no mercy? Even if they really need the job?
And how will you delegate responsibilities? When do you plan to delegate spending decisions to someone who handles finances? When will you dedicate someone to hiring people and managing employee relations?
All this and more are things you will have to confront if you plan to build a real company.
http://joshuaspodek.com/initiative
Disclosure: I wrote it.
