Amazon has devolved. Counterfeits. Fake reviews. Crap quality....
IDK if this is true. That is, IDK if amazon's meaningfully worse than traditional big department stores or the brick-and-mortar sector generally.
But, say it's true. Amazon has jumped the shark. This is HN. This isn't the place for customer complaints. It's the place to hatch plans to kill amazon.
What's the bridgehead (à la pg) to a full-scale invasion of amazon territory? Reviews? Some product subset? Discovery? How would you build the company that replaces amazon?
They are meaningfully worse. "Traditional big department stores and the brick-and-mortar sector generally" have much more control over their supply chains than Amazon does. Physical shelf space is too valuable to let every random fly-by-night fake-review-fueled company use it. There's also the legal liability that comes with having a real address in a jurisdiction where it's likely you'll be held accountable.
For the above reasons, you're much less likely to find fake and counterfeit products at a brick and mortar store than on Amazon.
> What's the bridgehead (à la pg) to a full-scale invasion of amazon territory?
Well-deserved reputational damage that motivates consumers to look for and consider alternatives.
This is less true than ever, as more big box stores expand their online offerings with third-party sellers.
Amazon bundled, so its killer will unbundle. Amazon's killer will be:
1. Brands/manufacturers going to direct to consumer on their own e-commerce platforms
2. Niche vertical sites that have hyperfocus on domain expertise
Wanna be a betting man? Put your money in E-comm platforms and services.
A few nights ago, I was looking for very specific LED strips -- no waterproofing, black PCB, warm white LEDs, etc. Amazon couldn't help me, or at least, I couldn't find the item with high confidence that I'd actually get the right item after the 3 months of slow-boat China shipping.
I ended up branching out to a bunch of local 'warehouses', which are I think what you're describing: Local stores that stock and sell a small number of items that they stand behind. I passed on every single one I found because of their terrible websites, filled with popups and chat windows, and the scourge of early ecommerce: "contact us for pricing!"
This is before I ever had to enter an address and credit card number to actually buy anything.
I think the solution is somewhere in the middle. Use Amazon for what they're good at and what makes them good for your customers, but build a brand with its own trustworthiness that exists outside of Amazon.
It is something like SDCardholder.com that sells what I feel is the best card holder in the world. They have a storefront, but they use Amazon for their cart and warehouse. Monoprice has been the best place to get cables for years. I've purchased from them from both Amazon and their own storefront. Or Anker and Aukey, who have made brands around "reasonably-priced chargers that probably won't burst into flames and kill your family."
Recently, I've been getting a lot of boxes from Walmart.com after ordering from Amazon.com... and I'm okay with that. Because I didn't have to open an account with Walmart.com, but I still got the products that I wanted and a price I was okay with.
So, quality is VERY important, but don't forget about convenience.
I think you'd need to play a different game altogether if you wanted to carve a new niche. What that looks like, I'm not sure. Maybe a shopping site that builds carts across various retailers and orders from the least expensive?
As Amazon gets into more sectors, competition will increase. I don't think that will kill Amazon, but a big breach or other bad press could be enough to get people to move to alternatives, especially if those alternatives have become more competitive.
I don't think startups can compete until larger businesses threaten Amazon (Costco, Wal-Mart, CVS, Target, etc).
I tried ordering angled cutting pliers for cutting excess legs off of my PCB's when soldering, and other than Hakko which was an add-on item so I couldn't buy it unless I wanted 3 of them, most other brands were cheap Chinese trash.
I've had 34/35 items arrive from Aliexpress in the last month from Cambodia, China, and Russia. One was mis-delivered by USPS in USA. Amazon can't deliver correctly to the Whole Foods 1/4 mile from their HQ.
Sounds like pcpartpicker. Which is, of course, only relevant if you're trying to buy parts for a pc. Great service though (not affiliated in any way, just a happy user).
I would once too. Then I found out this "curation" ain't that well curated...
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16729408
https://www.xdesk.com/wirecutter-standing-desk-review-pay-to...
Every Amazon seller knows that if you make a great product, Amazon will compete with you eventually. They utilize an 80/20 rule. They sell the top 20% of products on their marketplace that make up 80% of the sales. I don't know how accurate this information or numbers are, but I heard from a VP who helped build the marketplace from the beginning, so I trust his insight.
Amazon did not start out this way from the beginning. They started as resellers themselves, then started private labeling, and I am going to bet that they will eventually start manufacturing themselves with their own factories if they haven't already. Bezos wants to build rockets so I'm sure Amazon could build their own products too if they wanted to. I could be completely wrong about this but it would be the next rational jump. Amazon is great at ruthless efficient systems so being able to own something where they could guarantee quality and lower costs seems obvious.
So far it seems they have been working on relentlessly cutting out the middle man they initially partnered with whether it was the first resellers they added to their marketplace, UPS, etc. Another example of this is how Amazon ruthlessly uses the data of sellers on their marketplace against them. They pretty much let third party Amazon sellers do all the testing for them and they can just take action on the best opportunities by simply looking at the data. Every time a brand sells something on Amazon, you're pretty much giving your business and customer data on a golden platter to Amazon. Amazon's algorithm loves outside traffic. Their beast needs to be fed.
Sorry for the long ramble but the point is that I think Amazon's end goal of global marketplace is achievable if you keep in mind the 80/20 rule. Amazon's marketplace might have millions of products but if 80% of the revenue comes from only 20% of the selection then fulfillment is a lot more manageable.
Amazon might seem to be a behemoth but they are having a lot of issues right now. Their fulfillment centers aren't perfect. They are losing customer trust. Retailers pretty much hate them. Amazon sellers would get off the Amazon marketplace in a heartbeat if they could make more money on another marketplace. Many sellers I know are always diversifying, selling on Walmart, Ebay, and their own stores. They're only on Amazon because that's where the customers are for the time being.
For those that think Amazon is unbeatable, ecommerce shifts quickly. Ebay used to be the bees knees years ago and look where they are now.
There are still new technologies that are being developed that will change the way people shop. Alibaba is light years ahead of shopping than Amazon. Just look at all their promotional videos. They built a fully functioning Amazon Go store way before Amazon. In this sense, Asia is leading the way.
Amazon might be dominating the American marketplace right now but they are not winning in other countries. There is still a race. Amazon failed in India and they're locked out of China.
Amazon has fat pockets but I don't think they're unbeatable. I heard there might be a stealth startup trying to take on Amazon. If anyone wants to put my esoteric knowledge to use, I'd love to talk. It's one of the weird things I might be good at so I love building or testing my Amazon knowledge. There's not that many people I can talk to about Amazon on this level so if anyone can push my thinking, I'd appreciate it. I'm colleagues with people on all levels of the Amazon marketplace ecosystem from sellers to agencies to software founders but they tend to be laser focused on their circle of expertise.
Try:
https://reviewmeta.com/amazon/B07FTFFY24
https://www.fakespot.com/product/28pcs-wood-burning-kit-crea...
While fakespot gave D, it gave it for other reasons. What really happened there - seller completely replaced product on that page with another one. Read existing reviews to understand what is going on.
One more example - https://reviewmeta.com/amazon/B07FSW8VMQ - just read reviews to see how ridiculous it gets.
Not all of them are easy to detect. This seller added soldering iron as a variation to a wood burning unit - https://reviewmeta.com/amazon/B07D9H5H9Y - even by reading reviews you can't easily figure out fakeness of it. (https://www.fakespot.com/product/vastar-wood-burning-kit-44p... Fakespot gave A)
This type of blackhat stuff happens right now right and left. It is even cheaper/quicker/easier than paying reviewers for reviews now.
The first example is a little trickier since the first time we analyzed the product, the title had already been changed. (You can click on the "Title History" link for any product).
We're working on being able to detect when these changes/variations are normal or being used to deceive shoppers. It's extremely easy for a human to immediately tell, but much harder to train a computer to do it. For example, a seller might have a t-shirt with different product variations: "Large Blue", "Medium Green". These are very different words, but obviously a legit reason to have a bunch of variations.
Here's more info about Review Hijacking: https://reviewmeta.com/blog/amazon-review-hijacking/ and here's an article that BuzzFeed News recently did: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/nicolenguyen/amazon-rev...
This is a crappy game of cat and mouse, and if producers are willing to exploit Amazon's system, they'll exploit ReviewMeta. The only thing that protects ReviewMeta at this point is that it's a niche service.
It'd be nice to see a mechanism that recognizes trusted reviewers, but even that can be exploited I suppose.
Technically speaking, of course ReviewMeta can be "gamed", but it would require much more effort on the part of the seller to generate reviews in such a way that it wouldn't set off any warnings on our side. Basically force them to be very deliberate in their efforts. It would just add yet another hoop for sellers to jump through, making it that much more difficult on their part.
We all can look at reviews and make our best guess, but at the end of the day, it's always going to still be a guess. At ReviewMeta, we aren't claiming to know all the answers. We try our best to ensure everyone knows it's an estimate (you're actually forced to click an I agree button before accessing the site) and we also provide all our work so you can use the numbers to help you make a more informed decision.
If you're going to create a fake account to promote your items, you could give your items 5* and then copy other reviews on other products exactly (including # of *s) to make the account look more legitimate.
Here are some relevant quotes:
> "I personally believe that somehow Holy Stone is able to game the system beyond what even Faskespot can detect. A DroneDJ source confirms that Holy Stone uses “black hat” techniques to game the system."
> Among other tricks, Holy Stone is likely getting 100s of reviews from people who were provided product in exchange for a promise of a good review. These reviews pass the test as original reviews, but not the test of being unbiased reviews. I also think Holy Stone must be doing something to appease unhappy customers in exchange for not providing a negative review. It’s just too good to be true. Just 6% of reviews of the HS100 have 1, 2, or 3-star rating. That’s unheard of for drones. Unheard of unless you are looking at a Holy Stone drone.
They don't bother now because there's no significant userbase for these tools. That'd change quickly if Amazon built it into their system.
Seems like Amazon is filled with "fake" brands like these. Is just so that if some brand messes up, they can just put out the same product under a new brand?
Most "brands" of $100 to $2000 glasses are made in the same factory, owned by the same company (Luxxotica) and use the same materials and craftsmanship (or lack thereof), just with a different design.
Then the same design/materials go off-branded for sale for 1/10th the price or less.
I found page after page of cheap identical rebranded products: https://i.imgur.com/KRNTBDB.jpg
I did not buy a new mouse on amazon.
What worries me more is fake reviews because that makes it harder to trust anything sold.
The supplier will test and QC a range of products and when they find one which matches the spec they need they will have it branded and brought into their range. Although it's primarily a generic product they have put the time & effort into sourcing it and are [more] responsible for maintaining the quality and compatibility with their other offerings.
So what’s the real fix here?
If I report the company then it’ll shut down and reopen under a different name.
If I leave a review it’ll drown it out with fake reviews.
If I shame the company - no one will see it. mom trusts ama son because ten years ago I told her to look at the reviews there.
The fix is the same as always, brand. Companies and distributors establish a reputation good or bad. You pay a premium or chase cheap and take the risk. This I suspect will be a never ending cycle.
When reviewing, they also offer the best "budget" choice, so often, even the premium isn't large.
Sometimes the ultimate price for cheapness and convenience is just too high to be worth paying.
Dump the reviews? Perhaps return rates would be a better metric.
The products are garbage, but most of the prices are already pretty good. When you realize the prices are for two at the cost of a review, they're even better.
I still get emails trying to give me free stuff to change a one-star review I left a year ago for a one-ear bluetooth earbud.
On the other hand, I don't see how you can buy quality on Amazon anymore. I've started shopping on niche sites for things that I want to work, and I'd never buy expensive electronics. The risk of a counterfeit is just too high.
The products are garbage, but most of the prices are already pretty good
But is it at the price of removing your 1-star review? They are buying your honesty?
Drones are like computers, you can buy all the individual parts and build it yourself. They only have a few parts: flight controller, PDB, ESCs, motors, propellers, radio receiver, camera, video transmitter, and a frame to hold everything together.
These vendors of cheap drones are just putting them together themselves and add a fancy canopy on top.
The long play for Amazon might just be that consumers gravitate towards the products that are actually sold by Amazon, because they can be sure that it should at least work. Eventually Amazon doesn't just control the marketplace, but is the only major vendor as well, and actually controls everything from the factory to the consumer.
(Don't get me wrong - their customer service doesn't make up for their poor products. Never buy a drone with injection molded frames, since they're not serviceable. Carbon fiber with replaceable frame parts all the way.)
Or even better: If Amazon would spend some of their AI departments time and delete those fake reviews on a daily basis. So tired of them.
"I also think Holy Stone must be doing something to appease unhappy customers in exchange for not providing a negative review. It’s just too good to be true. Just 6% of reviews of the HS100 have 1, 2, or 3-star rating."
So there are nefarious ways to achieve this. But you do not need to do sneaky things to get excellent reviews from pissed off customers. It is easy to assume that the more underhand ways have gotten the good reviews and I am sure you can go to a fake reviews bot to prove the thesis. But it is actually easier and more cost efficient to get those excellent reviews for an average product from pissed off customers by good old customer service.
Most companies have their customer service team at the bottom of the food chain, outsourced and on the minimum wage. From my experience of Google products I suspect that this goes on in a lot of companies that genuinely make wonder products. We all know the story, you struggle to find out how to complain, you struggle filling in an online form and, if you are lucky, you get an automated response. They then make resolution of your complaint as hard as possible, divorce proceedings could be easier.
Most companies don't go the 'full Google' on lousy customer service, however it still takes a while. You get there in the end. They actually have a good product so the complaints are a relatively rare thing for them. Consequently they don't have to major on customer service, the customer service guys are one or two grunts in the company and the whole thing is seen as a cost rather than a revenue centre.
If a company does have a real problem with the product and there are a lot of warranty claims then they have to shape up and get good at customer service. Otherwise they are doomed to go out of business. So they throw people at the problem and more people and are still not winning. The next step is to automate the hell out of it. So you have extremely polite letters sent to customers to get the information needed to process a warranty claim. Customers receive these and the process rolls real quick. They provide required information and the highly automated customer service process just requires some human operator to approve the claim. The warehouse (FBA) then sends the customer out replacement product on the same day. Again, sensible communication goes out and the customer again thinks that for once in their freaking life they have been listened to. Maybe, up until then they have had 'Google grade' customer service and felt left out in the cold. At this point they don't really care so much about the product - most products are commodities anyhow - they just get wowed by the instant response.
There is social engineering in this, the customer can also be led to believe that they are the first person to notice that the 'plastic could be moulded better' and they think that their feedback will be passed along to the 'design team' to help make a better product. They feel involved.
Next the follow up email goes out, asking the customer if their experience with customer service was good enough. By now they have 'bonded' with 'Debbie' or whomever they thought those nice emails were from. They don't realise that 'Debbie' can't spell to save her life and cares more about watching Netflix than their problems with the product. 'Debbie' just clicked a button with automated systems and email templates doing the rest. But because they think they know 'Debbie' they obligingly write a really nice thank you and give five stars. A review is a review, on the site - Amazon or other - there are no silos for reviews breaking them down into 'customer service' and 'product', it all goes into the same pot.
'Debbie' might reject some warranty claims but for these people 'Debbie' can click a different tick box that sends out a discount code for the customer to buy a replacement. So whatever happens, thanks to automation put in place due to the lousy nature of the product, the customer always gets something far beyond what the 'good' companies would do.
These reviews all look formulaic praise for the company because there is a high likelihood that people will write the same stuff, e.g. 'fab, utterly delighted, will buy again'. What else are they going to write?
Then some fake review spotting bot comes along and goes 'ahem... these reviews are all the same!' which implies something dastardly. Nothing dastardly has gone on at all, this is assigning conspiracy when a more plausible explanation is possible. No customers have been bribed, no begging for reviews has gone on, the hustle is far more sophisticated than that.
Obviously there is a lot of product that has to be sent out for warranty claims however, in this customer service model there is no huge team of people weighed down with a massive queue of complaints and not knowing what to do, only to ever let people down. Every complaint is dealt with in real time and there is no backlog.
So then think anti-pattern here. If you can convert 99% of complaints into raving reviews then you kind of need more complaints as that is the best way to get awesome reviews. Happy normal customers don't usually care to write a review, they have better things to do. Pissed off customers that get delightful, not seen before, utterly speedy customer service will go that extra mile and forgive human and product failings to write reviews. These reviews provide the social proof other people need to buy the product. Clearly the product is not better and can't be for this gaming of the system to work.
I am not saying this has gone on in this instance with this product - I don't work for this drone company and have no idea how they work behind the scenes. However I do know that the above technique works and that nobody is going to scan the page to notice 'all these reviews are as a result of customer service'. Even the Google bot won't notice.
Most proper companies don't put the grunts of customer service high up in the food chain, some companies selling so-so commodity items have to. So off-brand products can win reviews remarkably easily with nothing being faked in the underhand ways people with no skin in the game can imagine. I have to say American consumers are the easiest 'marks' for this type of shenanigans, YMMV in Europe.
Or, if that is illegal (which I can imagine), just putting up a new bad review.
It took a while for Target to rebrand itself as the less crappy source of overpriced but better quality cheap crap store for the middle and upper-middle class. Perhaps someone will come along and do this to Amazon online. Whereas Amazon clearly doesn’t care that it’s selling cheap crap, someone could come along and apply a little more curation to the offering.
A package insert offers three more batteries free, and by the way, don’t forget you can give happy reviews.
The implications probably play out well for them.
// The HS170G for $30 is a hoot to zip around indoors to practice your “Mode 2” controller chops, certainly worth 5 stars for entertainment per dollar: