This honestly is spot on the way I think about it - I can sleep early, but who benefits from my day to day learning as an adult? My employer maybe? Me in some minor long term ways?
Or I can stay up and do things I enjoy, wake myself up with an alarm every day and consume enough caffeine to bridge the gap. This way, I get more enjoyment out of my life in a very direct and measurable way.
If 5-6 hours of sleep a night is enough to get paid, I'm not going to make a sacrifice that will cost me personally.
"Routinely sleeping less than six or seven hours a night demolishes your immune system, more than doubling your risk of cancer. Insufficient sleep is a key lifestyle factor determining whether or not you will develop Alzheimer’s disease. Inadequate sleep—even moderate reductions for just one week—disrupts blood sugar levels so profoundly that you would be classified as pre-diabetic. Short sleeping increases the likelihood of your coronary arteries becoming blocked and brittle, setting you on a path toward cardiovascular disease, stroke, and congestive heart failure. Fitting Charlotte Brontë’s prophetic wisdom that “a ruffled mind makes a restless pillow,” sleep disruption further contributes to all major psychiatric conditions, including depression, anxiety, and suicidality."
The book isn't so much about "why we sleep" but rather "why you should sleep more" – 350 pages of Walker telling you about study after study after study after study comparing well-slept to underslept people, and all of the afflictions the latter suffer from, often without even noticing it (and the consequences for industry and society).
While I found his contrived writing style annoying at times, the content is the kind of eye-opening that makes you want to buy a dozen copies just to give to your family and friends.
That said, I think it is a very important book, and now I’ve hopefully resolved my sleep issue (with thanks to some of the comments on https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16671944 - primarily the advice about having a regular “sleep schedule”) I look forward to finishing it!
One thing I've really changed my thinking on in the past few years is my attitude towards work situations demanding late nights. I wouldn't smoke a cigarette for work, so why was I making excuses for late nights?
I've got an Ouraring, and track my sleep constantly -- but still have trouble getting a consistent 8.5 hours. But I'm getting better.
What habits did you change?
Think of it in terms of open source projects, where the projects that you might be interested have only a few people working on them - but in the context of issues that affect folk completely outside of tech who don't have disposable income like those you'd see on HN or similar.
I seriously recommend that you check out a local "open data civics" group, or something similar in your area. You'll find that they're generally filled with junior programmers - but what they need are senior level programmers who can take charge of problems that junior programmers otherwise can't take charge of. Be that person.
FWIW, personally everything that I learn is entirely aimed towards helping the general public (at a distance), at the expense of my own salary. The work has been very rewarding. That said, it would be great if others would take the plunge that I have.
Feel free to email me at the address in my desc. Thanks-a-lot!
Is there something about software development that makes people feel the need to practice it every waking minute of their lives?
I mean, sometimes I do it when there's an itch I really need scratched, but most of the time I'd rather do something else. Basically anything else. Is it so wrong to want to socialize a bit or put on one of the pile of TV shows and anime I'd like to check out?
Doing that sort of volunteer work is great, but I just can't, I need to turn it off at some point.
Sleep is very important for your physical and mental health, and it affects people around you, too.
Even those two extra hours you can add are really important. You probably could say "yeah, I'll just drink coffee in the morning," well, NOTHING is a replacement for sleep and coffee has some repercussions in your sleep too (depending on quantity and when you drink it).
So if you are sleep deprived and adding coffee to the mix, you're doing it wrong. Inform yourself, read books about it, ask doctors, don't make decisions based on what people say on the internet (myself included) and you will notice a big difference almost right away.
I stopped drinking coffee (because I have terrible reflux) and started sleeping more. I wake up in a better mood; I noticed that I'm more productive at work because I'm less stressed, plus my family noticed the change too.
Conversely I can take 6.5 hours of sleep and do exercise, or sleep for 8 hours and not have time to exercise.
Self-help books are noticeably silent on which is better.
* Acquire a shorter commute by moving somewhere closer to work, shifting your working hours to avoid rush hour, or working from home.
* Bike to work, to combine commuting and exercise time.
* Hire help with daily chores like lawn work, house cleaning, laundry, and cooking.
* Eat lunch at your desk
I realized that when I used to stay up later I wasn’t very productive, and just wasted a lot of time.
If that is the case I think the key is realizing that you are cheating yourself. When you aren't sleep deprived you should be able to do most of your required work mid-morning and take it easy in the afternoon. Then when you get home you won't be exhausted and can do whatever you want and still go to bed at ease.
I could get hit by a bus and die tomorrow and I'd be damn glad I took that extra time for myself each and every day.
Other than that though I find it far more enjoyable to do something other than blindly consume knowledge for no purpose, I'd much rather engage in social activities or play games - even making numbers go up is more satisfying to me than memorizing factoids of limited practical use to me.
I think that for most people who don't get enough sleep it's not because they are busy squeezing every bit of joy out of life. It's because they're using their phone in bed, watching TV, etc.
We have so much to learn about the body and sleep.
I think: diphenhydramine or melatonin might be a safer bet for some people. Never take it more than a few days in a row.
Exactly.
Literally any sleep substance taken regularly can be addictive, either physically or psychologically. Even melatonin, which is what your body produces will get less and less effective.
As an aside, melatonin is often sold at dosages insanely higher than recommended. Studied have shown that less than a mg, even low as 0.1mg is the optimal dose for many people, but you can easily find 1, 3, 10mg dosages, which is insane. I was in hong kong, the lowest dosage I could find on shelves was 3mg - way too much.
Thanks!
By "awful" I mean that I just think slower. It's like playing a game with lag, not fun. I wonder if/how many people who claim they can sleep 6 hours a day and feel fine have just gotten so used to the lag that they don't notice it anymore.
Only thing I'm afraid of is children...
In my adolescence/college studies, I thought fast, and slept little. I could stay up all night with friends then go to class the next morning. I spent the first 5/6 years of my career being a top performer on 4 hours every weekday, and catching up on 8-10 hours of sleep over each weekend night.
Then, 3 things happened almost at the same time:
1) I got a much tougher job that challenged me like I never had before (FAANG)
2) I turned 30
3) I lost the ability to sleep in on the weekends. I wake up at 8am now every day regardless of what time I go to bed.
Until #3, I got by with coffee and still using weekends for recovery - way more coffee. #3 ruined it.
I still got by - and was even successful.
Then,
#4) I got promoted.
Now the challenges are out of this world, and I can't sustain my lifestyle any more. I'm struggling to adjust to going to bed early because my brain and all my instincts are still in the mode of "Nighttime is for creativity and fun! We can sleep when we're dead!"
But it's starting to affect my work, which in turn is stressing me out, because I really love my job and I want to excel at it. The effects are just as you describe - lag. I'm slow. I'm not as smart as I used to be.
So...gradually...i'm learning to force myself to sleep. I welcome tips. :S
Liking a job doesn't really cut it. It's a great start, but no matter how much you like something, it will get to you if you have to do it every day 10 hours a day. That and sleep.
Admittedly, my week is a little boring this way and I still haven't worked up to doing it consistently, but it's been much more effective than anything else.
Maybe not having to be in early might remove some morning anxiety and make it easier for you to sleep in?
Since most things that end up being successful for me over the long term are due to optimizing for long term outcomes, framing the problem that way helps me stay focused on getting proper sleep.
So I'd need 2 x 4.5h blocks to get close to how I'd feel with 1 x 8h stretch. Even then, only close. Couldn't quite get it to feel the same and definitely not better.
TBH I think most of the 'off' feeling about it is in how it broke my normal perception of days and time passing. I spent a lot more time having to consider where I was, temporally, and how it lined up to anyone I needed to interact with.
I'm able to be very productive on this schedule but obviously not everyone is able to follow a schedule like this.
Other times I'll go to sleep right after dinner, awaken around 11 PM, do stuff until 2, and then sleep until 7.
I always feel well rested on days like either of those.
I feel that I need to do it, as it's very difficult for me to go to sleep before midnight and if I don't get the mid-morning sleep I will be ineffective in the morning. At first I felt bad about doing it (going back to sleep when everyone else is working) but I usually work until about 9 pm at night as well as on the weekends for about 3 or 4 hours on Saturday and Sunday so I feel I am working a normal amount, just at really odd times. And I feel much more productive, particularly in the afternoon which I used to reserve for low-brain activity work.
It replaces a much shorter catnap I used to take in the mid-afternoon, which I have been doing for some years. I no longer need to do that.
Sleep clinic would be the most precise but personally I think it induces its own bias as we sleep best in our own beds. Hopefully we sleep in our own beds most of the time.
So what consumer choices are there?
Apple Watch is what I read in this thread but any other fitness trackers/phones with reasonable accuracy ?
I am very doubtful of just a phone app accuracy without some on body sensors.
Sometimes you might wake from 7.5 hours of sleep groggy and with a headache and sometimes you might feel fresh after 6 hours.
If good sleep is one of the most important things in prolonging and improving your quality of life then it would make sense to take advantage of modern technology to track it.
What's the point of investing extra $100 for retirement if you do not live to enjoy it?
Besides, I live in a country where retirement is far from certain.
I would at least like to know the optimal time for waking up.
Pretty comprehensive recent review https://www.wareable.com/health-and-wellbeing/oura-ring-2018...
All fitness bands brands (Huawei, xiaomi, Fitbit) today track your sleep. You can give it a try and decide by yourself.
Still not certain whether it works or not. Sometimes it tells me I’ve slept with a 90% quality but I still wake up feeling a little bit tired..
I have high mental clarity currently. I had high mental clarity when I went to sleep. I did have issues sleeping, but this is nothing new on a ketogenic and fasting state.
From the vast research I've done, sleeping may be more important on a high-insulin-fluctuating diet. However, when the body and brain are fat adapted (less insulin), there is a constant fuel source. The brain operates very efficiently on ketones. Also, important to note that when fasting and doing keto, you must supplement electrolytes.
There is a lot more to all of this and the notion behind the importance of sleep. Anecdotally, diet proves to be more important for me. Do your own research.
Doing this has helped my sleep so much and my productivity has gone through the roof.
I don't do ketogenic though, I believe a good source of carbs in our diet is fine. I tend to get mine from sweet potatoes. I stay well away from refined sugars though.
I actually do a high-glycemic (talking baked sugary madness) load/refeed around intense workouts every once and awhile; also keeps me sane.
Could you link to some of your peer-reviewed articles in moderate-to-high impact journals? I'd be really interested in hearing about that vast body of research.
This isn’t so bad because I’m at work at 06:00 anyway. But it’s no fun if I sleep earlier.
I recently went to doc and said as much. Got prescription for 25 temazepam to take as needed in the AM to get me back to sleep.
I don’t use them much, but knowing they’re there helps a lot.
My other tactics are: jog after work and a few sets on the heavy dumbbells. No food or drink for two hours prior to retiring.
Plus, I keep a bottle of liquid melatonin (sub lingual) and a phased release melatonin tablet (swallowed) by my bed. I’ll otfen have a dose of the liquid melatonin plus a tablet as I lay down and read a book in bed. The liquid acts rapidly, tablet less so.
I find this combination of food restriction, plus excercise, plus melatonin, plus reading novels, gives me waaaaaay better sleep than reading HN all night ;)
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/chpf/homepage/ref=smi_se_scyc_sr...
Do what works for you, but do remember that your life is just another anecdote. Stop telling others how to live their lives.
I stay up way too late all the time. My sleep is irregular. I rarely get as much sleep as I would if I went to bed at 10pm every night. And yet I'm extremely healthy, I pop out of bed every morning, and I'm always in a good mood. I don't get colds, I don't have memory problems... I don't have any of the horrible effects you all are sure I must have because your book says I must.
But I agree with you, if you get less sleep than generally recommended and you feel fine, then there is little point in sleeping more.
Obviously, many detrimental effects of sleep deprivation only kick in after many years. And then there are the outliers. Just because you can cross the street blindfolded with headphones on without checking traffic doesn't mean it can generally be considered safe.
I would encourage nearly anyone to try it. It's an amino acid found in the highest concentrations in green tea. If you've ever had a couple cups of green tea and noticed you feel relaxed and focused, you might want to try an L-Theanine supplement.
Edit: http://super-memory.com/articles/sleep.htm this seems to be the same article.
and in 2010: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1207945
Speak for yourself.
In sleep about 9h a day.
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please email at matt@puresomni.com if you have any questions.
