Trust isn't about knowing where your kids are, it's about communication. Children have rights to privacy as well, and this includes from their parents: being able to be independent and reason things through yourself ("should I wag school?"), looking at the consequences of the actions fully on the basis of other issues than "mum & dad can see where I am" is an important part of growing up too.
This app seems to me to entirely catering to the overprotective, paranoid parents who cannot communicate with their children. It's not about whether the tech is right or effective, it's about whether we should, as a society, be encouraging this sort of tech and the behaviour that comes with it. And when it comes to encouraging independence, good communication, and healthy relationships, this sort of monitoring is not conducive to this.
Sorry guys, I love supporting you but some of your apps are pretty questionable, ethically speaking :(
Well, we're definitely not professional ethicists. What we do do a lot of is talking to our customers, and the people we've spoken to, generally, haven't been the paranoid types that you describe. Generally they've been very level-headed people, and in speaking to them you can hear how much they care about their kids.
One person we spoke to recently, though very concerned for knowing his kids locations, I think has much better data on the actual dangers to his children than most (certainly more than me, and I'd posit more than you). He was a police detective and loved the application because of the piece of mind that it gave him. I think I'm a reasonable judge of character, and in my evaluation, this wasn't a trust issue, it was just an early warning system to know when his family might be in danger.
I don't know that we're encouraging paranoia. I think that paranoia will be there no matter what we do. I acknowledge that there's the potential for us to profit from it, but I guess I think you under-estimate parents, and I can see why: I did initially as well.
To me, it comes down to this: when we first came up with this idea, I had a lot of the same reservations you do. But, we did our homework. We speak to people all the time about this. And my honest opinion is that parents are not as bad as you think.
Maybe most parents will tell themselves it's just for their kids' safety, but what do you think will happen when Jane spends the evening at her boyfriend's house instead of going to her music lesson? Do you think most parents are going to pretend they don't know? Does it matter?
Jane is now living in a police state.
The other problem is that social acceptance (i.e. your anecdotes about your clients) != social acceptability. Society can agree on some really terrible things to do to people, as history can attest.
Another problem is the fact that you're potentially dealing with minors here who are being coerced (through being given an iPhone) into using this system. Even if it's by their parents, this raises serious alarms, since it's a severe power imbalance against kids who can't necessarily think through the consequences of accepting it in a rational manner like adults can (or should be able to).
The other other problems are related to the information the app generates, the potential misuse of that information, and what other commenters before have said about phones being mislaid, hijacked, etc.
Did you actually talk to kids at all? Or just their parents? If not, why not? They're as big a stakeholder, if not bigger, than the parents involved!
I'm not trying to say you're not a great company or good people. I'm just trying to point out some of the serious ethical issues with the product you've put out.
What I'd really worry about is what happens when some backdoor captures and sends your child most frequent location to someone else? (now imagine that someone else as a network of pedophiles or organ traders)
This is an iPhone app, I think it could be solved by using a specialized separate device (not connected to any other computer (including the Internet)).
Well I would think most people wouldn't be comfortable with any company having record of their kids locations all day, every day for years [1]. Why would any sane parent want to give away this data to a startup?
Parents who buy this app are crazy(imo).
[1]sure your cell phone service provide has this data but (a) that can't be helped (b) location tracking isn't their business and (c) they don't specifically target kids).
It's an emotional safety net, yes. But in certain tragic circonstances it could mean the difference between life and death.
How many parents do you think would accept a decision by their children not to use this? Your logic is the logic of police states: it's not to hurt you, it's for your own good, so why do you need privacy anyways?
Whatever the motivations of the authors, they are marketing their product to the unreasonable paranoia of parents (our society is actually really safe, people) and the effect of this software will be to make the lives of many children worse.
You're just hoping that the battery of the device doesn't dry, or that the bad guys don't toss it away.
This app just grows from his natural desire to keep track of his two or more lovely children, as he has written about so passionately in this review of his own app:
Or rather, is that market big enough? Maybe eventually, but this seems almost premature.
It's important to note that we have no intention of stopping with supporting just iPhone. Android, blackberry, etc are all on the way.
It was pretty interesting to check out an AT&T store recently: a lot of the lower-end phones that you'd buy kids if you were worried about them breaking it are running Android these days, and I think the leap from a feature phone to a low-end Android handset is much smaller than the leap from a feature phone to an iPhone.
But we've actually found quite a few families where parents have bought their kids an iPhone as a reward, etc. We find that if the kid has an iPhone, typically the parent does too.
Supporting Android does seem very significant.
I hate the idea. Absolutely hate it, and (No offense to those involved) hope and expect it to fail.
We, like you, hate the idea of abusing trust and privacy.
However, children who want their parents to know when they're getting home from soccer practise, or see how far away their mother is when she's coming to pick them up, is quite a different scenario.
There are services that are as one-sided as you imply - the child doesn't have to 'opt-in'. Whereoscope is built quite differently.
cheers Mick
Whereoscope already has strong competition from the phone companies themselves, who realize this is a big deal. Verizon charges 9.99/month for, AT&T's is also 9.99/month, with the first month free. Sprint throws in 100 text messages with their 9.99/month charge. That said, there is room to be had, especially if they have patentable IP, similar to co-existence of Tivo and Comcast.
If this does push parents across the line and they decide to get their kids an iPhone, we want to provide them with an awesome service that they'll see some value from too.
1. Stupid way: lie and give your phone to a friend while you go to your boyfriend's house,
2. Social engineer: turn it off every other day, telling your parents 'my phone just keeps crashing since you installed this virus on it. And how do you know it's not sending my location to hackers?'
3. And some of them might even be inspired enough to learn some real hacking: this will encourage a generation of hackers into hackerdom.
Technology might advance quickly, but human relationships stay more or less the same.
I think there's probably always going to be ways that these sorts of systems will be evaded; it's just the nature of the beast with computer systems.
What we're hoping we'll be able to do though is to build this in such a way that there's value to the kids as well as the parents. If the choice is between getting an annoying phone-call everyday to ask where you are and having this app, I think for all the times when the kid isn't doing something malicious, they'll prefer to just have the app. Similarly the app lets kids locate their parents as well -- this can be handy if they're waiting for a lift for example.
The last line of defence is that we plan to build in features to tell parents when the app has been disabled by the kid. Saying that the app has crashed is one thing, but if that results in an angry phone call telling them to start it up again -- even if it has just crashed -- I think kids will be less inclined to keep playing that card.
Awesome feedback though. Keep it coming, dudes!
Setup call forwarding on the iPhone itself Google Voice Dual boot the OS on the iPhone. Pre-paid - either just a sim or even a 2nd phone 'Accidentally' leave the phone at school enough times that mom/dad stop bothering w/ the service.
If the kids are over 18 and you were to track them without their knowledge, that might be illegal.
"You don't want us to track your every move? Oh, then you can't have a cell phone like all your friends and classmates. Sorry."
Calling that consent is purely philosophical.
Are you implying that kids need to consent to being tracked by their parents? That's.... interesting.
We're very serious about getting both right!
I wouldn't spy on my kids. Lack of trust becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
How about spying on your gf or bf or something?
To be clear - this is about building trust not a lack of it. The kids can see where the parents are, and the parents can see where the kid is.
We agree 100% that setting this up as a spying tool isn't useful for the parents, the child, or the family.
1. It doesn't clarify IF your kid requires a smartphone. Anyone not coming from the the article would wonder if there was 1 phone for the parent and a wrist-watch or something for the kid. It may seem obvious to many, but the average person hitting the site would probably not know, then try to use the feedback tool, which leads to #2.
2. The feedback tool makes you fill out the form first then after all that leads you to sign in or create an account -with no way out. What a shitty way to do it. It's not a social media site, it's a business.
Subtle things like this can make a company flop. If they can't get the basics down, why would I want to do business with them?
As for the product. I agree with the previous post, like as if my kids are going to have a smart phone.
Just my 2 cents.
We're following the advice we've been given which is that we should launch as soon as possible. To that end we've put a lot of work into the app, but the website largely remains a TODO.
PS. You're probably only thinking of the software aspect, but food for thought - If there was a smartphone-to-wristwatch version - I'd buy one right away, and I doubt I'd look at the price tag.
I mean knowing where they are doesn't tell you if they are doing something they should not be doing, which after watching the trouble these kids in this neighborhood get into between 3pm and 6pm before their parents get home - trust me you better find out what your kids are up to, not just where.
But our belief is that there's also plenty of times when you really do just want to know where they are. If you're a busy person (say you're a single parent who's at work when their kids arrive home), being able to quickly check that your kids got home ok is huge piece of mind, for a very small time investment. Also consider the equation when you've got a few kids running around -- being able to open our app and see where they all are in a second or two is going to be easier than calling them all up. There will also be times when you're in a meeting and discreetly checking this app is going to work much better than running outside to make a few calls and track down all your children.
I think they are going to learn to come home, leave their phone there (or at a friend's house) and then go do whatever they want, secure in knowing they are definitely fooling mom/dad.
So you are right back to where you were before they had a phone at all.
Mick
IIRC you mention elsewhere on this thread that neither of your is a parent but on TC someone said this. I quote
"
I think these products are great.
For example, Mick Johnson, CEO of Wheroscope/Stalqer/Zotora/ChildPulse/BindTwo/Gasbag/Knetckr/… was a childless 30-something guy at the start of 2009.
But due to the power of location-based services, he has apparently discovered that he has not one, but multiple children, one of whom is apparently old enough to be taking soccer lessons.
From a ‘review’ that Mick posted to the App Store, of his own product:
“I think it’s great that I can give my child more freedom and at the same time get more peace of mind. I’m not worried about where he goes, but it actually makes his life easier if he doesn’t have to keep calling me to let me know he’s gotten home from school or is later to soccer practice. At the same time, it’s easier for him to know how long until I arrive when I’m driving over to pick him up.
I would love to be able see more than 1 of my kids on it though – looking forward to the update. “
Is this guy blowing smoke? Or did you guys fake a "review"?
http://appcomments.com/user/42248226?country=143441
Don't know if MickMountainView is the same person as Mick Johnson but he sure likes their apps.
Whereoscope lets you setup 4 people at the moment (and we can always make it more or fewer at any time), so they don't need to be your kids.
We're really excited about seeing how people will take this thing and use it. It's awesome as a founder to see people making use of your product in ways you didn't expect. So you can be sure that if people want to do this, we'll evolve the product to make sure it's an awesome experience for them.
We picked families as a starting point because we got a lot of feedback that this is something people wanted, but we'll definitely be watching to see how people use it.
Also: how long until these kids start hacking the system: pay off some other kid to carry the phone as an alibi? Even better: reverse engineer the protocol & write their own spoofing app. Now THAT would be a good education.
Whereoscope give parents a way to find their kids lost iPhones."Sorry mom, my phone died" This will actually happen because obviously your child will play with it all day and we all know what an iphone battery is like
But if they wanted to hide something, do you really think they won't figure out how to turn this app off/spoof their location?
Of course, I have similar software monitoring my bike commute for my wife's edification. I'm the one who set it up; I don't feel particularly oppressed.
I would hope that my kids would view this as an easy way to keep the parents up to date without having to actually call/SMS.