Because those are not things you buy to own. Those are things you rent and which only keep working as long the owner is willing to keep them running.
I agree but in some cases, you end up with such a restrictive product because it's part of a system package.
For example, I recently bought a new Trane air conditioner system and it comes with a fancy system controller.[1] It has wifi so Trane promotes the capability for you to control the temperature remotely from your smartphone. Well, the IoT rub is that it requires the cloud for that capability. When I first heard that explained to me by the installer, I had to have him repeat it twice because it didn't make any sense.
"You mean my iPhone that's on wifi doesn't communicate with this thermostat that's on the same wifi -- directly? You mean the thermostat app on my iPhone has to send the "increase temperature" command out of the house to the mothership cloud, and then round trip back to my thermostat?!? Yes, that's how it works." That's crazy -- If the internet is down, my iPhone can't control the thermostat that's 10 feet away!
Needless to say, I just forego the smartphone remote app and simply walk up to the thermostat and change the settings on the wall.
[1] https://www.trane.com/residential/en/products/thermostats-an...
Total bonkers. Silicon Valley only knows how to make web services apparently.
If your IoT device depends on the internet for functionality it really should be able to connect to cell networks, not just wifi. The only problem is the security risks with that, but it doesn't expand the attack surface that much more than having a cloud-connected device as it is.
Some proposals for future 'smart cities' is having CAT-6 LTE (which can be as fast as most home broadband connections) broadcasting everywhere and having all the devices connected to that, so you don't have to depend on your home wifi staying on or being in range.
The Chromecast could be discontinued tomorrow, but it only cost £30, so I'll just replace it with whatever. Relying on your expensive TV's probably terrible and badly supported software is madness, but it's what most people seem happy to do. It's getting harder and harder to buy TVs that are not smart, and I find it maddening.
I take the same approach with Speakers.
But in many other cases of smart devices where the core function relies on external services, they'll be entirely useless.
Does anyone know of a good smart thermostat with an api that can be used without a proprietary cloud?
Company: http://www.radiothermostat.com/
API Doc: http://assistly-production.s3.amazonaws.com/91626/kb_article...
The API would be provided by something like Mi Casa Verde running on some hardware in your house.
You can do everything the cloud services enable, locally, such as ‘scenes’ where you press a button and multiple things happen at once.
There are of course some trade-offs with Z-wave. It’s proprietary and expensive (compared to other things) to license. You’ll find a much more limited selection of Z-wave devices compared to BT or WiFi.
They make Z-wave controllers for raspberry pi and such. I’ve seen plenty of projects that used Mi Casa Verde to enable phone support and automation without going to someone else’s cloud.
For what it’s worth, I’ve got z-wave switches for nearly every switch in my house, a few electrical outlets, and a few corded adapters.
The adapters and outlets are great come holiday time. The outlets are paired with light switches in kids’ rooms so when we turn on the switch for their white noise machines some under bed night lights come on.
I used to use a Z-Wave thermostat and it worked just fine, I switched to an Ecobee 3 with room sensors to help better manage hot/cold spots.
I tie it all together with a Wink Hub, so it’s going to someone else’s cloud. I like their app on my phone better and it just works and has no monthly cost. They’ve got an API to integrate with, and have generally been nice to work with.
I specifically chose Z-wave though to give me options if they go under or I decide to cut ties and run my own stuff.
https://partofthething.com/thoughts/enlighten-your-old-furna...
What if service isn't discontinued, but merely suspended?
What if the company goes out of business? What if it's purchased, and becomes a different legal entity?
What if the service is discontinued as the result of a legal action?
What if the API depends on some proprietary technology?
[1] https://home-assistant.io/, very recently discussed on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15521743
[2] https://partofthething.com/thoughts/adding-a-ir-send-and-rec...
It's more about hardware. Good luck getting your fire insurance cover damages when your Alibaba sourced board that you operate on the mains (via Alibaba source AC/DC converter) fries your living room.
The issues with DIY here are not hard issues in themselves (grounding, heat protection/ventilation), but they require a custom casing solution which is kind of hard if you don't want to end up with weird looking industrial cases on your wall and ceiling.
Interface configuration still requires writing some YAML (unless the editor got better since I last looked at it), but installation and configuration is now extremely simple.
You’re not going to convince your average homeowner to replace $100 of mechanical light switches that last forever with $3000 of IoT switches that have to be replaced every 10 years or so. You’re really not going to convince them to drop another $2000 on configuration.
By far the biggest use case is in home theaters, which is already a well-served market. Pro-level home theater installers have been putting in these systems for 20 years; they’ve just become cheaper. The pros definitely use this stuff too; open source is pure margin on an install versus a commercial solution.
I'm still looking for a solution that's inexpensive and gets out of my way (i.e., is aware of what's going on) without phoning home to some server ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I worked in the CEDIA industry for a number of years, and was in direct competition with Logitech-- at one point we were even going to buy their remote division. My company was allergic to sustaining engineering. We would toss a buggy 1.0 iOS / Android app onto their respective stores and then forget about them. It felt dirty. I hated it.
When Apple's 64-bit transition happened, I dutifully warned my managers, was given no resources to get out ahead of the problem, and a year later all of our apps were kicked out of the App Store. It was hilarious, but not for our customers. :-/
Looks like I'll be buying parts and building my own equipment soon.
Getting home assistant setup is my xmas project. Kind of want to get rid of my Nest if I can.
If you have a temperature sensor and a relay getting rid of Nest can be pretty easy and cheap with Home Assistant (for the DIY-inclined) as well [1].
[1] https://partofthething.com/thoughts/enlighten-your-old-furna...
Now this just sounds like a project. sigh.
Be careful though: there are cheap knockoffs that flooded ebay a while ago. I ordered some and they are definitely not the same thing as the original. They work, but the feel isn't there, and that Logitech symbol is strangely bubbled up and protrudes above the surface of the mouse.
My experience, historically, has been the exact opposite. While they do discontinue products I love, the few times I've had to call upon their tech support they've been as helpful as could be.
are you kidding me?
maybe it has kind of similar shape at best and looks quite alien design, looks uncomfortable and very "gamer", doesn't look like a normal mouse for office use
while MX500/MX518/G400 have the very same comfortable shape
That's just horrid, and a bad look (and bad consumer relations). I might he stating the obvious, but if a company is going to temporarily license a technology and then develop a product for consumer markets they would do well to continually renew their certs. To do otherwise and act how they did seeds doubt: are we simply buying into a temporarily functioning product that can cease functioning at any time at the whim of the manufacturer? If so why are we buying from them at all if the product we get isn't truly ours?
This happens a lot. I own several software/hardware products that no longer function because the ecosystem moved on and the company stopped updating the software (either for business reasons or because they simply went out of business)..
The hardware itself is totally fine, I just can't use it anymore because the closed-sourced software is not available or not compatible with my operating system(s).
And it is a bad look for sure. I'm definitely not buying any products from any of those companies anymore.. The ones that still exist at least.
And I have a perfectly functional Epson printer/scanner whose only drivers no longer work on Windows 10.
I could go on and on. That’s just what came to mind with 5 seconds thinking about it.
I received a similar email from Scanadu Scout this year (an Indiegogo product that allowed you to scan your body for heart rate, bp and a few other metrics).
However, in their corporate greed they decided that the Bluetooth device you bought should connect to your phone only as a router to their server. If they had stored their algorithms in the app there's no problem if they decide to shutdown analytics servers one day...
They branded it as 'end of beta test' or something like that. I can post the full email if someone wants. Too bad, very useful little device that could have worked for years to come.
Severe security vulnerability that they'd rather keep under wraps than admit to and patch? Hard to imagine what else would be worth the ill will from consumers, I'd characterize Harmony is one of Logitech's flagship consumer product lines. Is this a Galaxy Gear type situation, but with something that would be a poison pill for IoT and is maybe even effectively unfixable/compromised at the hardware level? March 2018 seems like a long time to wait in that case, though.
Edit: According to a user on Reddit, Logitech's had the Link products on "fire sale" a number of times over the last 6 months, with a 3 month warranty. So they've run the inventory out, with warranty terms that exclude the buyers from the replacement program. It seems like the most plausible reason is greed.
The fire-sale stuff is pure garbage though.. They had to know they were selling customers soon-to-be-dead products.
When a piece of software we used (local install) was bought out by a big company, they refused to renew our license and gave us a hard date after which we could no longer have it operational.
Our response was exactly this, "Sorry Customer, as of Date, Service will no longer be available." Customers were pissed, they just could not understand that just because the software could still run, we didn't have the rights to run it anymore.
h-v-smacker• 6h Here, have a treat:
сlаss асtiоn lаwsuit
Copy&Paste, half the letters are cyrillic, half are latin, so it won't be caught by a regular expression
---
Dear [...],
This is an important update regarding your Harmony Link. On March 16, 2018, Logitech will discontinue service and support for Harmony Link. Your Harmony Link will no longer function after this date.
Although your Harmony Link is no longer under warranty, we are offering you a 35% discount on a new Harmony Hub. Harmony Hub offers app-based remote control features similar to Harmony Link, but with the added benefit of the ability to control many popular connected home devices. To receive your discounted Harmony Hub, go to logitech.com, add Harmony Hub to your cart, and use your personal one-time promotional code [...] during checkout.
Thank you for being a Logitech customer and we hope you will take advantage of this offer to upgrade to a new Harmony Hub.If you have any questions or concerns about Harmony Link, please email the Harmony customer care team.
Regards,
Logitech Harmony Team
---
1: https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/7bg8gi/logitech...
Frankly that seems scummier than just EOL/EOS of the product.
That's a shitty way to do it. The better way would be to give them a two year notice, with the discount. By the end, most people would probably have upgraded.
The FTC are likely pretty powerless in this situation. Only negative PR and taking your business elsewhere may assist here but given the lack of competition in this space, good luck!
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/07/15/ftc_lets_nest_off_h...
I've been buying used/refurbished 880 remotes online for the last few years. I still think it's the best IR remote ever made.
Mine controls tv, Nvidia Shield, Logitech z5500 speakers, and a Blu-ray player. I believe the Shield is controlled by Bluetooth.
Because the Shield is a Google cast receiver, I can press the music button and it leaves the tv off but allows us to cast music (or just play something from the shield with sound only). Everything else is as straight forward as you'd expect, one litmus test is that visitors are able to figure it out easily. I used to have one of the remotes with an lcd screen and I'm not sure it was as straight forward, partly because the remote was so intimidating.
OTOH, maybe there's a few months to reverse engineer the link backend for those affected.
That means that with my receiver and TV, my Xfinity remote is able to control everything I need it to in my entertainment center.
I was getting kind of bummed about the sad state of Logitech Harmony remotes as my old one was failing on me - but it turns out that it no longer matters.
Luckily you can disable the CEC stuff on the TV, which solved the problem.
...But then totally defeats the purpose.
They've abandoned the line of products and a class action lawsuit is in process.
Remember that Microsoft couldn't even keep up their DRM servers for their Zune. I would think out of any technology company, MS would be the last to drop support for infrastructure.
It's just safer to consider any "cloud required" device to be a rental. Now, its up to the user if that rental is a good deal or not. Sometimes it can be (chromecast). Other times, it isn't.
Maybe PWA's can become the default offline first configuration web interfaces of devices, and sync while the cloud is still available.
Ongoing cloud costs for eol products will kill old products quicker.. That shouldn't be connected to, or rely on the cloud.
I own harmony hubs and will have to figure out how to leave.
EDIT: I'll look for products that are hybrid-cloud enabled - ones that offer locally stored and run backends (perhaps an offline-first progressive web apps as control panels that can sync to a cloud API if it exists).
I would also encourage you to look into the broad range of keyboards and pointing devices that exist out there. Mechanical keyboards are more than just Cherry MX switches. In terms of pointing devices, I use a CST Trackball for instance, and it's borderline industrial.
Irregardless of small print, if it's not clear from the outset there is some part of 'lease' (of certificates) involved it seems pretty straightforward to annul your agreement of purchase once the product stops working within the period you could normally have expected it to function correctly. (Even if it is clear from the outset, the day my Philips Netflix-integrated TV With Netflix Button (R) stops showing Netflix, I'm going for it.)
The nice thing about annulment is 100% money back. The less nice thing about anulment is that it is the store that has to pay you back, not the companing producing the product. They need to sort out liability among themselves. It's producers thinking this is acceptable behaviour that starts it. The retailer is only the middle man.
Also: short paragraph: bad news, device being killed. Longer paragraph: sales pitch...
I'll probably keep buying Logitech peripherals because they are very good quality, but the moment they make a cloud-dependent mouse, I'm out.
But at it's core, the device is an IR blaster accessible over some sort of network interface. It makes no sense that this would NEED some kind of cloud service for regular operation. I can, however, see two pieces that greatly benefit from a cloud service:
1) Initial setup. There are constantly new TVs, DVD players, cable boxes, etc with their different IR codes and quirks. The cloud service would be a good way to house this database so that it can be continuously updated without needing to push a firmware and/or app update. Each firmware/app update could include a base set of IR codes, or all codes as of the time the update was built, so that you can get base functionality without needing the service. Once you've picked a set of devices it can download the codes once and not require continuous access.
2) TV listings. This seems to be one of the value-added features with the Harmony and there's no realistic way to bake this into the app or firmware. This needs to be a cloud service.
Sure, maybe the TV listings will go away, I get that. I even get that they may want to discontinue the product and no longer support the app. But that's no reason to brick a bunch of devices - just say to people "This is no longer supported, the app may stop working with future OS updates, and the TV listings are going to go away."
Ideally they'd also say "Here's our internal API guide that the hardware guys gave to the software guys, enjoy". And in a perfect world, "Here's the github link to our firmware source code that we just released under a BSD license, enjoy."
So Logitech is going to scrap an ancient piece of hardware that relies on expensive cloud infrastructure and they are willing to give people a newer version that does all of the same things (and more) for free, and people are complaining?
If you don't want companies to do this with cloud based hardware, you will have to be prepared to pay subscription fees to cover ongoing cloud infrastructure costs. The profits from the sale of the device don't stretch to infinity. It's just basic economics.
The other option (if you don't want cloud based infrastructure) is that you could run your own home server, but then you are going to have to worry about 24/7 connectivity, SSL, firewalls, mobile push nightmares, and all that.
You don't buy a product which solely depends upon a free online hosted service and then bitch after 7 years of using it for free. Yes, it would be nice if Logitech released its server-side code so people could host the service themselves, but that would require a firmware update too as MyHarmony.com is almost certainly hard-coded in the device.
Personally, I learned this lesson in 2002 when the Dreamcast's online services were terminated after only a year. It's too bad other people didn't seem to notice the parallels in 2011. But the suggestions of "class action lawsuit" is just stupid. You can't sue a corporation into running a free service for you that it never guaranteed in the first place.
I could share more source code if anybody is interested in doing the same thing.
