Before the weekend, the Spanish Judicial System gave a warning to anyone who helps spreading material about the referendum, or is involved in any way. Catalans are still pushing forward to hold the vote on the 1st of October. This lead to this morning's arrests of mayors around Catalunya. And now, Spanish Judicial System decided that the organization behind the .cat TLD is somehow involved in the referendum as well.
Previously on "Catalunya VS Spain" also includes Spanish Judicial System taking down informational websites about the referendum, such as http://referendum.pirata.cat (which is a mirror of the one which existed on http://referendum.cat but is now shut down)
Some say that Catalunya can't decide whether they want to be a country, and I don't understand that neither. This is like saying that Brexit should have been voted by all Europeans. Is there any legal technicality that I'm missing?
I guess that a country is more sovereign over their regions than the EU over their members, but still...
The secessionists have even forbidden the opposition to participate in the debates in the Parliament of Catalonia.
Edit to add: it is not the same a country willing to participate in an union and then deciding to leave it, than a movement in a nation (Spain) where some people in there decide they want to transform a part of Spain in an independent nation.
Remember also that Catalonia has never been a nation.
There are about half of the population of Catalonia that doesn't agree with you.
but I still can't understand how holding a referendum can be illegal in a modern democracy.
This is not a referendum to ask about sideways width. It's about asking people if they want to commit a crime: secession.
Some say that Catalunya can't decide whether they want to be a country, and I don't understand that neither
It's very simple. Constitution says that sovereignty is in the nation as a whole, so a part of the nation can't simply vote to leave. That's the case for most civilized countries, so hardly a surprise.
This is like saying that Brexit should have been voted by all Europeans.
No, it's not. You are comparing denouncing an international treaty with trying to overcome the government.
Is there any legal technicality that I'm missing?
No, you are missing the elephant in the room.
I'm an spanish citizen thereby granted to have free access to all national territory. If just catalan people is allowed to vote, then they are depriving me, and other spanish citizens, from the right to freely visit/live/work in catalonia.
We do have a formal one. In practice that is not so clear, as the many corruption cases show, with political use of the police included.
Also they not only have declared the referendum illegal, but are persecuting everyone promoting the referendum, so much for freedom of speech. But anyways, now you get into a criminal trial for making jokes about terrorist actions from 40 years ago against Franco ministers.
I am Andalusian and I'd be happy to keep Catalonian withing the Spanish state, under a federalist republic where we can move forward together. But in the current state of affairs I very much understand the independentist movement. Having a referendum is the only solution long-term and the Spanish goverment just uses legalist excuses to stop it. What they don't say is that precisely they can change the law to allow it!
Now it's even more illegal.
Edit: to the people downvoting this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_self-determination_ref...
The government of Catalonia can hold a referendum following the Law. The problem here is that the government of Catalonia is not following even their own regional laws approved by them, not to mention the Spanish Constitution.
The secessionists have even forbidden the opposition to participate in the debates in the Parliament of Catalonia.
Remember also that Catalonia has never been a nation.
Also, can you add some references to some of the more polemical claims (like "The secessionists have even forbidden the opposition to participate in the debates in the Parliament of Catalonia.").
Thanks!
The session was televised. The oposition was constantly interrupted and not allowed to talk. They are not even respecting the laws from the catalonian parlament. But I guess they have legitimacy because they have the support of... half the catalonians?
An example of democracy.
It is true that Catalonia has never been a country, contrary to the rhetoric of the Catalan nationalists.
On the other hand, should it matter? If it did then new countries could never be formed.
The reality, however, it's different:
- Catalonia is a rich, privileged region of Spain, which has benefited enormously of a huge investment in infraestructure and industry in the last decades.
- The indepentist movement was fueled around outright xenophobia, accusing the central government of "stealing" Catalonians, attacking poorer regions of Spain (which are full of lazy, untrustworthy people).
- In the last years, the Catalonian government has shaped their citizen perception of history, promoting nonsense like "Catalonia is a colony of Spain". An easy to disprove, but widely repeated argument.
- The Catalonian government even forbade the use of Spanish to their civil servants. Which was fined by the EU.
For a long time, state politic parties and catalonian parties, profited from this absurd "us against them" scenario. Now it's really out of hand, and the central government has a lot of blame in this.
But I really failed to see why someone should have any sympathy for Catalonian independentism. It's certainly not based on any historical reality, their political and economic consequences are unpredictable (but I doubt that benefitial for anyone other than catalonian politicians) and it's illegal under any possible frame.
I guess you could justify it if you believe in this abstract right to self-determination. I personally would have held a referendum long ago. I still think it's both stupid and immoral (it's usually the rich regions that want independence, with similar arguments).
As far as I have been able to see, they are not in any way xenophobic, or greedy, or anything else you're accusing them of here. What they do seem to be is very distinctly Catalan with their own culture, history and language, and significant grievances towards the Spanish state.
I don't have an opinion on their independence, but I do find it very hard to justify denying them a right to vote on it. I do suspect the optimal way would be to negotiate a new relationship with Catalonia inside Spain, but that's just my mostly uninformed two cents on the issue.
(This is just to give the other side of the argument here.)
The region of Catalonia has a lot of independence inside Spain, similar to a federal state. They however say that "Madrid oppress them"; that is simply nonsense, all Catalan citizens, as Spanish citizens, and as EU citizens, has the same rights ( and obligations ) as Madrid citizens.
The constitution they disregard openly, has a section that explicit protects their language as part of our collective culture ( source in spanish: http://www.congreso.es/consti/constitucion/indice/titulos/ar... )
The referendum they are pushing, has not guaranties, they even don't have an official census, so anyone can vote several times in different places. Even if I were pro-independence, I wouldn't like a referendum like that.
They say openly all the time that the rest of Spain steal from them. Yes, they pay taxes ( as all the Spanish citizens ), and seems that paying taxes ( using the same laws as the rest of Spain ) is stealing. I won't say this is xenophobic or greedy, but there something clearly wrong with that argument.
Spain is (in practice, not in theory) a very asymmetric federation of states. Catalonia has its own police, prison system, education, healthcare and a big long list. What it does , it's not control over its budget. The threat of independentism has been used as leverage against the government for decades. When the catalonian government was investigated for corruption, they party in power (until that moment, unionist) became the "Leader" of independentism.
Spanish central government is not free of blame (quite the opposite). First, it has always: a) Caved to the demands of catalonian politicians in exchange for their support for the central government b) Attacked catalonians as a way of winning votes against the most conservative voters.
This was all theater, as all parties in power were extremely similar. Now the situation has spinned out of control by a series of different factors: - Disenchantment with the corrupt central government (though the catalonian wasn't better)
- Very biased education about the history of Catalonia
- Catalonian conservatives using it as a smokescreen to hide corruption.
- Left wing parties not minding this (as independence seems to be an issue above everything else)
Of course, you have to consider that after almost 40 years of a fascist dictatorship, anything that resembled a democratic constitution was good news, so 90% of Catalans voted in favor of these Constitution.
This is the main reason why, according to the current Constitution, the current referendum is illegal.
(I have no affiliation or connection)
Also, see the (potentially biased) en.Wikipedia article on the referendum: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_referendu...
I support their right to decide but at the same time I feel that the way this has been managed by both Catalan and Spanish governments is not going to have a good outcome :(
On the other side I always had the feeling that this is just politicians willing to use this situation for their own benefit and raise votes. Instead of creating a peaceful dialogue (both sides) they just prefer to keep with the same story over and over creating more and more hate between different parts of the country...
It comes to my mind a book by Chomsky (Media Control) that suggest how US has created always an enemy to have the country united and the support of the people.
Borders..... such a colonial western invention and all the problems they have created.....
Since all banks today work with fractional reserve banking, banks in Catalonia depend on the European Central Bank to keep their ATMs running. If Catalonia became an independent country and the ECB decided to cut Catalonia out the Eurozone, the corralito scenes in Catalonia will resemble those we have seen before in Cyprus and Greece.
