Glowforge launches consumer-grade laser cutter (opens in new tab)

This looks like a decent laser but I thought I'd post a few thoughts about this package which might give a potential buyer pause.

First, the main unique feature I see is the built in camera which apparently gives you a preview of cut/engraved finished part on your computer screen with the material as it's positioned inside the machine. This also (apparently, it's not clear), allows you to correct for misaligned material inside the machine. These are nice features, but it's perfectly possible to cut and engrave without them.

One big problem with operating this inside your home is the fumes. Now, they do mention that the base unit needs to be vented to the outside. What this means is that your neighbors (and you, if the wind is right) will have to smell the exhaust from this machine. It's not a nice smell if you're cutting acrylic. Though I personally got used to the scent of vaporized acrylic over time, your neighbors might not be so inclined.

So they also offer a $500 add-on ($1000 regular price) to filter the air so you can exhaust inside. The add on is smaller than the already small laser cutter. This is quite a feat and I would really like to know how they got it to work. You see, the fumes/smoke from a laser cutter can really clog up a particulate filter pretty quickly. Wood produces wood smoke, and acrylic vapor is quite sticky when it settles. So you have to have a powerful pump to draw the fumes through the filter. Then you need a good amount of activated charcoal to get rid of the smelly stuff.

If you look at the professional model air filters, they're $2000+ and you have to buy filters and media regularly.

Laser cutters get messy inside, so if you buy one, be prepared to clean it out regularly to keep the optical and mechanical components clean.

Problems with operation can START A FIRE, so be prepared to watch the machine 100% of the time while it's cutting.

It's not just cloud connected, it's cloud dependent. It requires internet access and their cloud services to function at all. That's kind of disappointing.

I have a 40W hobbyist laser cutter. It's fun, and a great tool for various projects, like making board games[1,2]. That said, sometimes materials inside the machine catch fire, and sometimes the beam reflects or dwells on a section of the metal enclosure. It's interesting that they've chosen to make the entire (?) enclosure out of plastic, itself a combustible material. I get why they went with plastic (cheaper to fabricate once you have the molds, lighter to ship, perhaps better dimensional accuracy than cheap sheet metal), but it does not seem particularly safe. The also seem to gloss over the need to ventilate the machine. Plastic fumes are nasty to breathe, glue-bonded wood (think thin plywood) can release formaldehyde fumes, leather may be dyed with heavy metals. What the laser doesn't cause to combust cleanly, it vaporizes. You don't want those emissions in your house of office, and you want them vented away from the optical components as quickly as possible so there is no deposition onto mirror or lens surfaces.

Another benefit of metal enclosures is shielding the power supplies of these things. High-voltage laser power supplies are noisy, and when you PWM them, they can cause quite a bit of interference. Metal enclosures at least help to attenuate RF emissions.

The "macro camera" is a clever addition for closed-loop optical control (if it is being used for that). Reminds me of attaching an optical mouse sensor the the lens sled.

1. https://igcdn-photos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/t51.28...

2. Make your own Carcassonne tiles! http://dev.tia.io/carcassonne_shading/

In the video, at about 13:40 they reveal that to print you have to use the web interface which runs "On Googles Cloud".

I would not like the interface to my own printer to be "In the Google cloud". Does that mean when the company goes out of business, the printer is bricked?

And right after, they admit that they plan adding paid services. Oh oh. How will thesed paid services be announced? I can imagine how. Whenever I want to print, this thing will bug me to pay for some fancy addon.

And privacy? Goes right out of the window. Everything I print would go through all kinds of hands. The manufacturer of this printer, Google, my carrier and who knows who.

And what about security? This is probably a full blown computer they want me to give access to my lan and internet connection. Who guarantees it gets security updates?

Dan's story about making a wallet with the laser is amusing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=292&v=0R3mMUsHFvU

"No, I have a laser!"

I was very interested until I saw this blog post:

http://glowforge.com/our-new-advisor-jennifer-lawton/

If you have been following the whole Makerbot Industries (and then Stratasys) debacle, seeing the name of Jennifer Lawton might give you pause.

I think I'm going to sit this one out.

Is there some strategy for customers once the cloud servers shut down? The company doesn't have to go out of business - perhaps five years have passed and you've moved on to more awesome models. While your business might feel that customers should upgrade to the newest, it's not great that they would be forced to.

For instance, when Steam was first released Valve promised that should the authentication servers go down, they would ensure that the games would stay functional without them. This was an important point that contributed to its success.

So in a followup, Glowforge offered to release the firmware of this 3d printer as GPL. That is a ballsy and incredibly great move. It also helps negate the issues of their cloud service going away, I have an expensive paperweight issue.

See: http://glowforge.com/gpl-licensed-open-source-firmware-for-g...

I am surprised it can cut paper without causing ignition.

I wonder how many of the projects shown were created using the "basic" ($2K) version and how many were produced using the pro ($4K) version?

I will say their early bird prices make these compelling for small business/etsy setups. However once they go to full price, I don't know if that will remain as true. It would take a LOT of wallets to break even at a $4K buy-in for the "basic" version.

PS - We live in an exciting world. Between 3D printers and these, you really can do more at home than ever before. And this type of technology is bringing tooling prices down massively even if you have it fabricated.

PPS - Looking at the material costs on their page, and looking at how much these items sell for on etsy right now ($39 inc. free postage), you'd have to sell over one hundred hardback skins for a Macbook Pro just to break even (and that's ignoring many of the hidden costs of running a business, like accountant, licensing, your salary, etc).

It's a very polished product, and the "pen" mode is a cool idea. To me, they're targeting an odd demographic, Makers who can afford expensive toys / tools, but also want a very friendly, hands-off interface. I would have expected the Maker camp to be ordering ~ $700 40-50W laser cutters from Shenzhen. I suppose the Glowforge would be pretty great in a school setting, though.

@danshapiro - Thanks for giving a fantastic resolution to the issue of the cloud software. I think that was a big hang up for many of us.

Can you expand on the benefits of the Pro model? The usefulness of the included air filter and pass through slots have been explained on your site, but the laser and cooling upgrade aren't really ever discussed.

5W more power doesn't seem like very much of an upgrade (12.5% more power for 60% more cost). What does the Pro model's upgraded laser and cooling specs mean in terms of "usefulness": cuttable material thickness, cutting times, duty cycle, etc?

Also, what's the expected life span of the charcoal filters, HEPA filters, laser tube, and any other consumables? Are replacements for these available only through Glowforge, or are they industry standard / Over The Counter parts?

Laser cutters generate smoke (with possibly toxic particles). They have air extraction attached to them for that reason. No air extraction on this model?

One of their sample images appears to be of the "Below the Boat" series.

http://www.belowtheboat.com/

I've given those maps as gifts, and they're very nice quality. Is there any relationship between your companies? Are they using your laser cutter?

It calls itself a 3D laser printer. It's a 2D laser cutter.

I want... NO.... I NEED this! The price seems surprisingly reasonable for the amount of household items you could create that you "Forgot to get from the store."

After watching that video I feel like they should do a promo with Etsy. Also can't help but think about Cory Doctorow's "Makers", sci-fi being slowly ushered into our lives :)

Someone please connect this with a Microsoft Kinect and build a robot turret on treads for eliminating pests such as mosquitos.

I'd be interested to hear the benefits over the successful Kickstarter[1] LazerBlade[2], which looks much simpler but is less than half the price at retail.

[1] https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1537608281/lazerblade-t...

[2] https://darklylabs.com/emblaser-overview/

This is a pretty neat product. I especially like the continuous-feed idea.

I'd really like to do stuff that involves stainless. What would be the cheapest option capable of doing some reasonable sheet stainess? My wallet is cringing at the mere concept, but maybe I could talk a local hackerspace into doing it or something.

I've been meaning to build a CNC mini-mill for a while. I think that seems like a more practical option for stuff that doesn't require intricate cuts. And definitely more affordable.

Looks like a great toy until you go through comments here. Honestly would have bought this for my woman, since she's into crafts and stuff, but cloud-only cutting/engraving, comments on fumes and filters + dealing with customs (if they even shipping int) quickly changed my mind. I've seen laser engravers on kickstarter before, hope to see more machines that do not require clouds to cut/etch a damn thing.

How is a 40W laser Class I, but the 45W laser is Class IV?

@danshapiro Questions : 1) Why could you not have done this with a quad core i7 box running ubuntu? The amount of time it will take to ship information from my box to google cloud is longer than what can be done on my box. What exact monetization strategy made you keep software/data in the cloud? 2) Any ETA on when the machines will start shipping? Assuming you now know how many people ordered already.

With the leather satchel they show, isn't the difficult really in stitching it?

Disappointed in the pricing tactics, and doubt the "50% off" is anything but typical sales bull.

Back in Feb in an interview with Shapiro in the NYT it was stated "desktop laser cutter that it plans to sell for around $2,000". No mention of this being a special 50% off price.

And in May this year on geekdad.com, Shapiro "wants the price to be under $2,500".

Now it emerges that this is actually the "50% off" price for 23 days only, and the actual full price will be $4000 for the basic model?

It begs the question: what happened between May and now that the price of the basic unit has doubled? What happened to the planned "$2000 laser printer"???

Or is the "50% off" just a lie to generate more initial sales, and later we'll see "new fantastic discount slashed from $4000 down to an unbelievable $2000"?

I see a lot of this sales tactic in online tech products. Permanent discount prices, there's always a "deal" happening. The RRP is some mythical price that is never actually reached.

I can't count the number of times a fire has started in my university woodshop because of smoldering debris and general lack of safety knowledge with laser cutters. I would assume this is something to be aware of with the Glowforge but I don't see any safety information on your webpage. Is this something to still worry about with 40W and 45W lasers?

This is going to be epic for schools and print-shops. I think only hardcore enthusiasts will want a home-home version of this tech, but I've spent enough time with paper-cutters and cutting out letter shapes that this is really cool.

Also, the boardgame industry can prototype cards much better with this - printing out Catan-like hex-tiles and the like.

That's a nice unit, and adding a camera is a big step forward. More CNC machines should have cameras to aid in alignment. I'd really like to have a camera with high magnification on a CNC mill, rigidly mounted a known distance from the spindle, and cross-hairs on the monitor.

There's a (golang) gopher hidden in the promo video at second 42: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysCaqh38JVQ&t=42s

Thanks for the great discussion, I learned a ton of good info from this thread which cotributed to me deciding to take the plunge and preorder the basic Glowforce. I had hoped to go pro but between the poor US/CAD exchange rate and the rather high price of shipping to Canada I could just not budget for it. If anyone who is ordering wants to save us a $100 each, order through this referal link :) http://glowforge.com/referred/?kid=H5xzt6

$954 shipping cost to UK. Isn't it a bit high?

Also UK regulations says I need to be supervised to use a class 4 laser since I can point it to somewhere I shouldn't. I wonder if that's still valid for an enclosed product.

I ordered one, wish I could pick it up in person instead of paying the shipping. Particularly interested in seeing what one can do with just a pen and skipping the computer design stage...

So I've seen danshapiro reply to a lot of comments here, but not a single one asking about whether the cloud access is necessary for this to operate. Does anyone know the answer?

It looks like vaporware to me. What gives me pause is the sneaky way they present it as if it were a KickStarter project, but it's not. So all those people shelling out for the early release are not protected if they close up shop and disappear it seems to me. So many glowing promises, but will they be able to follow through on all of them? I dunno. I am skeptical. (I hope they do though, I seriously want this to be real).

I'd like to quote a german comedian here:

"Never look into the laser with your remaining eye"

Here is $100 off if you use this link to order: http://glowforge.com/referred/?kid=QNUjZz

Can this device cut metals and if so which ones and of what thickness?

Awesome! I hope laser cutters (which IMHO is one of the most magical DIY tools there is) start getting the same sort of attention that 3D printers have been.

Could you use this for single sided PCB printing?

Whats the purpose of the big button the device? I would have thought starting a print from your computer would turn it on.

Wonder what they are prepared to do for their initial run?? Looks like there has been /quite/ a response so far!

Looks very nice, but I was a little disappointed that the sample gallery items did not have links to actual projects.

Fuck, I hate not living in the US when things like this appear.

It looks really amazing, but until it gets shipped and reviewed, it is just a video. I don't doubt they have prototypes nor I doubt their ability to ship, but once you do, then it is a real product.

I spend a lot of time playing with a laser cutter (120w generic from China). A lot of the things that they talk about are quite cool, but I think that they do not show all the other parts that also require time and effort - although I do imagine that one of their value propositions is that they remove and/or simplify a lot of the processes and their complexities. One of the biggest issues I currently have is to generate a file that the laser cutter will like - it has to be a dxf with no sub layers or any linked files, or a old illustrator file (.ai version 8). Each "settings layer" has to have it's own distinct color, and sometimes if the colors are too close, they get merged into one. It can also be difficult to set the correct distance between the things that you want to engrave and the things that you want to cut - say you want to engrave a round logo on a round beer coaster: getting this perfect would take a lot of tweaking, as there are minor (yet visible) gaps and mis-alignments.

Next, to get the laser to cut properly also takes some tweaking. It's almost impossible to get a repeatable cut, since there are so many different factors that you need to take into play: the location of the item you're cutting on the bed, the temperature of the laser, the thickness and quality of your material, the accuracy of the auto-focus, and the settings themselves. If we look at the location for example, there is a huge difference between the top left corner - where the laser mirror is - and the bottom right corner. On one side your material will catch fire, on the other, it will only cut half way through. The material is also an important factor - if the material is even 0.2mm thicker on the top compared to the bottom (especially true for acrylic), then the laser will go through on one side, and won't go through on the other. For wood, tiny differences in it's quality can have a significant impact on the cut and especially on any engraving you do. With wood and similar, easily smudged materials, you also have this sort of 'caramelisation' after you cut and engrave - the degree of this effect depends on whether you used the right power or not (for which you also have to take into account the location, temperature, material quality,...). If you try to clean it off by hand or with a dry tissue, you will smudge it further and it will be difficult to remove. Instead, you have to painstakingly clean every piece you cut with an alcohol soaked cloth, which will remove most of these smudges - however it won't remove any burn marks. As per the burn marks, you get a lot more of them when you use a honeycomb bed compared to one which has a number of thin pieces of metal that stretch across with a few cm interval. The glowforge laser has this honeycomb bed, so expect your wood, cardboard and paper cutouts to have some of these burn marks if you don't pay very close attention to the power/speed of the cut. With plastic, getting a cleaner cut is a bit easier, but the fumes are horrendous. Also, if you don't cut through the whole thickness of the plastic the first time, and do another pass, the edges which you cut will have these 'micro-cracks' that dont' look very professional. Similarly, if you cut with too much power, your plastic edges will just melt and look quite bad. However, an advantage with plastic cutting is that you can clean it without too much difficulty, if you use sufficient alcohol you can get most burn marks away.

Engraving looks really nice when done with a laser cutting, but it does take some time until you figure out the correct settings for each material. I particularly love engraved plastic and wood, the result (especially from genuine, extruded plexiglass) is beautiful and vey professional. A local public figure has had a picture of him holding a laser-engraved logo that I made him as his profile picture. Personally, I made some laser cut business cards, and they have absolutely blown away a lot of people - one person even told me that he stuck it to his wall for inspiration. I've also worked on laser cut tags/tokens that I give out as a promotional gift to people, and then they can use it as a fidelity card when they order things through my startup. I'm still working on perfecting these tags, but they required a lot of testing (over 30 different attempts just to get the QR code to engrave in a readable way), and I still haven't been able to generate them through software (right now they have to be put into illustrator before exporting them to the laser cutter). Lastly, engraving paper will likely incredibly difficult. On their page they have a sheet of paper that they engraved - I want to know how many attempts it took them before they got it to work - especially since the paper gets very easily caramelised. Maybe they had to use a special coating or used yellow/blue painters tape?

Despite all of this, laser cutters are extremely cool. The one we have cost $4000, and people have done lots of amazing things with it. Nowadays, you can get a 40w laser from ebay or aliexpress for a few hundred dollars, but do expect to spend weeks figuring out how to use it. The Glowforge looks like a pretty cool idea, however I don't know if they'll be able to survive at this price point + with the technology being at the state it is today. Their software (minus the part where it's cloud based), looks really powerful and very useful.

Aaaaand we're done here.

I've worked with Laser cutters and, unless they have fixed things, you really don't want to be cutting items--especially paper and cardboard--without industrial "shop" ventilation. And many times I've set my work on fire.

Still waiting for a lightsaber for taming my jungle of a yard. Is that so much to ask?