undefined | Better HN

0 pointsgeocar11y ago0 comments

> The computer is really quite proficient at inferring block structure from indentation, and if you use a modern editor this structure is manipulated rather effortlessly.

Nonsense.

Try pasting a block of Python into Hacker News and you get something that starts off like this:

import os import random def do_something(x): if x: fd = os.open(x)

and only gets worse. A language with braces/semicolons has no such problem; it is easier to communicate with others, and the absolute value of being able to communicate with others when starting a new language is exceptional.

0 comments

13 comments · 6 top-level

vertex-four11y ago· 4 in thread

> A language with braces/semicolons has no such problem; it is easier to communicate with others

If someone posts more than two lines of practically any curly-brace language as one line, it's illegible. Yes, you can pull it into an editor and fix it automatically, but it's a huge waste of time that is best fixed by simply posting the code properly in the first place.

geocarOP11y ago

> any curly-brace language as one line, it's illegible.

You might not be able to read it, but others can, so it is by definition not illegible.

"Indention language", on the other hand, has actually lost its meaning and therefore is illegible.

> it's a huge waste of time that is best fixed by simply posting the code properly in the first place

Helping others is never a waste of time, but telling people thy are too stupid to ask for help correctly is cruel.

vertex-four11y ago

> Helping others is never a waste of time, but telling people thy are too stupid to ask for help correctly is cruel.

Asking others politely to help you help them is not cruel in any way. If you allow a community to become a place where people can ask questions without putting any effort at all in themselves, you end up with all the people who can actually help leaving, and your community being full of people who will only ever put in the bare minimum of effort.

1 more reply

falcolas11y ago

> it is by definition not illegible

illegible, adjective: not clear enough to read.

Says nothing about "others being able to read". A doctor's handwriting can be illegible to everyone but the doctor, and not be a contradiction to the definition of illegible.

> Helping others is never a waste of time

If someone cares so little as to paste unformatted code on a forum which provides simple tools to display formatted code, how much value can you really put in their ability to provide quality code? How is requiring someone else decipher something you didn't care enough to post correctly not ultimately a waste of everyone's time?

restalis11y ago

"If someone posts more than two lines of practically any curly-brace language as one line, it's illegible." "...you can pull it into an editor ... but it's a huge waste of time..."

Well, I know it may sound a little bit awkward, but sometimes I just want it to see it work before looking into it, and copy-pasting curly-braced kind of code is perfect for that. So the curly-braced style solves a lot of such inside content distortions and actually frees me from a huge waste of time.

wolfgke11y ago· 2 in thread

Just put two spaces before each line (https://news.ycombinator.com/formatdoc: "Text after a blank line that is indented by two or more spaces is reproduced verbatim. (This is intended for code.)"):

  import os
  import random
  
  def do_something(x):
    if x:
      fd = os.open(x)

wolfgke11y ago

Why the downvote?

Scramblejams11y ago

Because petulant children can downvote here. It was a good comment, and I learned something from it. So thanks!

I wonder how a comment system that made downvotes public would do. And further, if the downvoter was required to give a one line justification. And further yet, if the downvote itself could be downvoted.

Oh, scrap all that. I'd like to see would happen if downvotes were eliminated entirely, so things sorted to the top purely by upvotes.

gus_massa11y ago· 1 in thread

[Note: if you add two spaces at the beginning of each line, it will look like code:

  import os 
  import random 
  def do_something(x):
    if x:
      fd = os.open(x)

Note2: If one line with two spaces is too long, it will mess the whole thread, so if you ever want to quote use italics instead of spaces.]

brudgers11y ago

Sorry about being pedantic.

PEPpy Python should have four spaces at each level of indentation...not two.

Now I feel better

zak_mc_kracken11y ago

> Try pasting a block of Python into Hacker News and you get something that starts off like this:

You're talking about a web site that seems to have been written by web developers who don't know Javascript exists.

Any Python parser will be able to format your snippet correctly.

falcolas11y ago

It's only problematic because the comment grammar used on HN for non-code folds consecutive whitespace down to one space. Ironically, this was done to work around those who feel that text documents should be hard-wrapped at ~70 characters. If the grammar did not apply this folding, then it would be happy to preserve the structure.

If I were designing a language, its compatibility with naive commenting systems (or catering to users who refuse to use code blocks provided by most modern commenting systems) would be pretty low on my list.

Whitespace, even disregarding indentation, is already very significant to a number of modern languages. Why, then, is this particular form of significance bad?

TazeTSchnitzel11y ago

C code with whitespace and new lines stripped is equally unreadable.

You are arguing that braces should be kept so people who don't indent their code properly on HN can be understood.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

0 comments

13 comments · 6 top-level

vertex-four11y ago· 4 in thread

> A language with braces/semicolons has no such problem; it is easier to communicate with others

geocarOP11y ago

> any curly-brace language as one line, it's illegible.

You might not be able to read it, but others can, so it is by definition not illegible.

"Indention language", on the other hand, has actually lost its meaning and therefore is illegible.

> it's a huge waste of time that is best fixed by simply posting the code properly in the first place

Helping others is never a waste of time, but telling people thy are too stupid to ask for help correctly is cruel.

vertex-four11y ago

> Helping others is never a waste of time, but telling people thy are too stupid to ask for help correctly is cruel.

1 more reply

falcolas11y ago

> it is by definition not illegible

illegible, adjective: not clear enough to read.

Says nothing about "others being able to read". A doctor's handwriting can be illegible to everyone but the doctor, and not be a contradiction to the definition of illegible.

> Helping others is never a waste of time

restalis11y ago

"If someone posts more than two lines of practically any curly-brace language as one line, it's illegible." "...you can pull it into an editor ... but it's a huge waste of time..."

wolfgke11y ago· 2 in thread

Just put two spaces before each line (https://news.ycombinator.com/formatdoc: "Text after a blank line that is indented by two or more spaces is reproduced verbatim. (This is intended for code.)"):

  import os
  import random
  
  def do_something(x):
    if x:
      fd = os.open(x)

wolfgke11y ago

Why the downvote?

Scramblejams11y ago

Because petulant children can downvote here. It was a good comment, and I learned something from it. So thanks!

Oh, scrap all that. I'd like to see would happen if downvotes were eliminated entirely, so things sorted to the top purely by upvotes.

gus_massa11y ago· 1 in thread

[Note: if you add two spaces at the beginning of each line, it will look like code:

  import os 
  import random 
  def do_something(x):
    if x:
      fd = os.open(x)

Note2: If one line with two spaces is too long, it will mess the whole thread, so if you ever want to quote use italics instead of spaces.]

brudgers11y ago

Sorry about being pedantic.

PEPpy Python should have four spaces at each level of indentation...not two.

Now I feel better

zak_mc_kracken11y ago

> Try pasting a block of Python into Hacker News and you get something that starts off like this:

You're talking about a web site that seems to have been written by web developers who don't know Javascript exists.

Any Python parser will be able to format your snippet correctly.

falcolas11y ago

Whitespace, even disregarding indentation, is already very significant to a number of modern languages. Why, then, is this particular form of significance bad?

TazeTSchnitzel11y ago

C code with whitespace and new lines stripped is equally unreadable.

You are arguing that braces should be kept so people who don't indent their code properly on HN can be understood.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse