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0 pointsk-mcgrady11y ago0 comments

>> "You were actually able to legaly get the tools you need. I on the other hand have no legal way to pay for some of the TV shows I'm watching."

I'm probably going to get down voted for this but when your excuse for piracy is you can't watch some TV shows your excuse is weak. Not being able to see those shows is going to have very little impact on your life. Certainly not enough of an impact to justify theft or copying without permission. TV shows are not a 'tool you need'.

I'm fortunately in a country where most stuff is available. There is still a lot that is not though and occasionally I may turn to piracy (until it is available at which stage I buy it). I don't try to justify this though as it is a poor justification for piracy.

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18 comments · 5 top-level

ojii11y ago· 6 in thread

But if I have two options: 1) Not watch a Movie/TV Show or 2) Pirate it (there's no option to buy it, which is true for most of the world besides the US), isn't piracy a "victimless" crime as in the producers of the content don't lose sales, because there was no way to do a sale in the first place?

tptacek11y ago

Without meaning to single you out: message board nerds like us have a bad habit of writing as if this observation was a keen bit of insight about piracy, but it's in fact a classic economic problem: the problem of free-riders.

If you want to see it in action in a setting where we don't get derailed so easily by its implications, consider vaccination.

k-mcgradyOP11y ago

>> "isn't piracy a "victimless" crime as in the producers of the content don't lose sales"

I don't know. Maybe the creator didn't want people in a certain country to view the material. Maybe it hurts their feelings that it's being pirated. Maybe they have a release planned 6 months from now in a certain country and their sales will be down for that. There's no way to know for certain you won't be causing harm.

logfromblammo11y ago

> There's no way to know for certain you won't be causing harm.

Harm must be proven to receive civil redress. Potential, unrealized harm is not actionable.

If your neighbor digs a bottomless pit in his backyard, and posts trespass warnings, you cannot sue to have him fill it because your kids might fall in. They would, after all, need to trespass in order to do that.

But you could tell your insurance adjuster, they could apply a risk premium to a policy, based on the presence of the hole, and you could sue your neighbor for that.

The argument against piracy is essentially a neighbor saying that 40 of their kids accidentally fell into the hole, except they also somehow lost all the birth certificates and forgot the kids' names. There's just no way that anyone can prove that sort of harm.

But if the content industry ever tried to take out an insurance policy for sales lost to piracy, that would be a reasoned, independent, and measurable assessment of their harm, and they couldn't make up those BS numbers about how many dozens of their non-existent children fell into the pit, lost forever, even to the public records and the memory of their parents.

icebraining11y ago

As a copyright holder of my HN posts, it hurts my feelings seeing you criticize pirates. Please refrain from doing so as a condition of downloading my posts.

Thlom11y ago

Third option: Wait until it's released in your region.

As long as TV-shows are broadcasted on television you can't expect all shows to be isntantly available in your region. Some will, somw won't, depending on distribution/broadcast agreements.

narrowrail11y ago

>you can't expect all shows to be isntantly available in your region.

I believe TPB and kickass proves this statement false.

I don't know what 'region' I'm in, and I don't care.

Karunamon11y ago· 5 in thread

I've yet to hear a good argument against piracy that boils down to anything but "what if everyone did it" and "the creator won't like it".

I'm bracing for the downvotes here, but I really don't see copying for personal use as a negative. To me, it's illegal in the same way that violating traffic laws to keep up with the flow of traffic is illegal (technically, but (sufficiently small values of) nobody actually cares or is actually harmed by it).

Would love to see some arguments to the contrary that aren't straight out of the media cartel fallacies playbook :)

radisb11y ago

How about this argument: It is against the law.

Karunamon11y ago

So is not coming to a full stop at red lights, driving 1 mile per hour over the speed limit, bringing lobsters under a certain length into the country, exposing government corruption, and many more questionable things.

Your point? Slavish adherence to the law makes you obedient, not noble.

narrowrail11y ago

In the U.S., it is a civil offense, not criminal (as long as it's non-commercial). In other countries (i.e. Canada), it isn't even a civil offense.

tomjen311y ago

You mean it is written on a piece of paper and enforced by armed men?

That is not very much justification.

1 more reply

mikeash11y ago

That's a decent argument against doing it (assuming the law is actually enforced) but a terrible argument for why it's wrong.

1 more reply

DannyBee11y ago· 2 in thread

The excuse is often weak, but this does nothing to change human nature in the slightest.

People don't need to speed in cars, or run red lights, or roll through stop signs.

etc

(They generally do so because the cost to them is low 99.9% of the time)

k-mcgradyOP11y ago

>> "The excuse is often weak, but this does nothing to change human nature in the slightest."

True, I'm not sure why it annoys me so much. I would be much happier if people just said, "Sure, I pirate some stuff I don't need. There is no excuse for it but I do it anyway." The end result is the same.

DannyBee11y ago

My guess, and i only minored in psychology, is that I'm guessing you just don't like the rationalization, because it's obviously silly and false.

The same way "I want to get home faster" or "i'm careful" is also a silly and false rationalization for the speeding/rolling through stop signs/etc.

1 more reply

venomsnake11y ago

I don't need to have excuse to pirate. The service is just better and hassle free.

No accounts, no logins, higher download speeds, worldwide availability. The fact that is free is just bonus.

lultimouomo11y ago

The weak excuse suffices for many people because the fault is perceived as proportionally weak. You don't pay for watching things you are not allowed to pay for anyway. Where's the harm?

We can argue if that perception is right, but I think this is the reasoning that justifies piracy in the eyes of many pirates.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

0 comments

18 comments · 5 top-level

ojii11y ago· 6 in thread

tptacek11y ago

If you want to see it in action in a setting where we don't get derailed so easily by its implications, consider vaccination.

k-mcgradyOP11y ago

>> "isn't piracy a "victimless" crime as in the producers of the content don't lose sales"

logfromblammo11y ago

> There's no way to know for certain you won't be causing harm.

Harm must be proven to receive civil redress. Potential, unrealized harm is not actionable.

But you could tell your insurance adjuster, they could apply a risk premium to a policy, based on the presence of the hole, and you could sue your neighbor for that.

icebraining11y ago

As a copyright holder of my HN posts, it hurts my feelings seeing you criticize pirates. Please refrain from doing so as a condition of downloading my posts.

Thlom11y ago

Third option: Wait until it's released in your region.

As long as TV-shows are broadcasted on television you can't expect all shows to be isntantly available in your region. Some will, somw won't, depending on distribution/broadcast agreements.

narrowrail11y ago

>you can't expect all shows to be isntantly available in your region.

I believe TPB and kickass proves this statement false.

I don't know what 'region' I'm in, and I don't care.

Karunamon11y ago· 5 in thread

I've yet to hear a good argument against piracy that boils down to anything but "what if everyone did it" and "the creator won't like it".

Would love to see some arguments to the contrary that aren't straight out of the media cartel fallacies playbook :)

radisb11y ago

How about this argument: It is against the law.

Karunamon11y ago

Your point? Slavish adherence to the law makes you obedient, not noble.

narrowrail11y ago

In the U.S., it is a civil offense, not criminal (as long as it's non-commercial). In other countries (i.e. Canada), it isn't even a civil offense.

tomjen311y ago

You mean it is written on a piece of paper and enforced by armed men?

That is not very much justification.

1 more reply

mikeash11y ago

That's a decent argument against doing it (assuming the law is actually enforced) but a terrible argument for why it's wrong.

1 more reply

DannyBee11y ago· 2 in thread

The excuse is often weak, but this does nothing to change human nature in the slightest.

People don't need to speed in cars, or run red lights, or roll through stop signs.

etc

(They generally do so because the cost to them is low 99.9% of the time)

k-mcgradyOP11y ago

>> "The excuse is often weak, but this does nothing to change human nature in the slightest."

DannyBee11y ago

My guess, and i only minored in psychology, is that I'm guessing you just don't like the rationalization, because it's obviously silly and false.

The same way "I want to get home faster" or "i'm careful" is also a silly and false rationalization for the speeding/rolling through stop signs/etc.

1 more reply

venomsnake11y ago

I don't need to have excuse to pirate. The service is just better and hassle free.

No accounts, no logins, higher download speeds, worldwide availability. The fact that is free is just bonus.

lultimouomo11y ago

The weak excuse suffices for many people because the fault is perceived as proportionally weak. You don't pay for watching things you are not allowed to pay for anyway. Where's the harm?

We can argue if that perception is right, but I think this is the reasoning that justifies piracy in the eyes of many pirates.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse