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0 pointsBugBrother11y ago0 comments

(Karma 34 account.)

I can only see that comment as this argument:

You REALLY think that dead civilians are on the heads of those countries defending themselves from military takeovers by non-democratic juntas, like Putin's.

Ah wait!

You also claim that this about large Russian military support of the rebels is just another Western conspiracy.

After the Krim takeover, Putin thanked the responsible Russian army units for good work and handed out medals. Before the Krim takeover, Putin claimed that there were no Russian military involvement. An obvious lie.

It is ridiculous to even consider that there are "just volunteers" again. The similarities makes it look like excerpts out of some internal Russian play book of how to do military takeovers.

Especially since there are contradicting satellite pictures, recorded conversations, etc. From USA and Ukraine.

Edit: Mainstream news references, not "therealnews", of moved tanks. http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/06/14/us-ukraine-crisis-...

Edit 2: There are similar articles about the BUK anti air system (with varying explanations out of Moscow and interviews (/social media) with rebels). There have also been articles about satellite pictures showing Russian artillery firing on Ukraine military units. Google yourself. Then you have recorded discussions of Russian and rebel discussions, etc, etc. Again, this is mainstream over the last few weeks -- let me know if you really need me to Google for you. Here is the BBC with voice recordings etc. Denied (with demands not to lay blame!!) from Putin. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28357880

Edit 3: Russia shot artillery at Ukraine (just more lies, of course): http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28476153

Edit 4: Anything else I should Google for you?

Edit 5: Is this your position? You seem to not argue against that Putin lied about military involvement before the Krim takeover. You claim that there aren't enough proofs (and/or that all Western media lies) that his junta is doing exactly the same thing now, just because it looks so similar in action/time? (I am sorry if this makes you sound stupid/dishonest, but...)

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3 comments · 1 top-level

pipy11y ago· 2 in thread

>Dead civilians are on the heads of those countries defending themselves from military takeovers by non-democratic juntas, like Putin's

There is no evidence that supports your argument about Russian military takeover of Donetsk and Luhansk regions. You are talking about something so significant that must have left some verifiable trace, right?

> (Karma 34 account.)

You don't provide a single footnote, and I actually provide sources to my claims.

I give you simple questions and you prefer to ignore them.

Yes, I rarely participate in internet discussions. Is appealing to my low karma your last and most powerful argument?

> Especially with satellite pictures, recorded conversations, etc.

So, let's bring these to the table?

Edit:

>Edit: Mainstream news references, not "therealnews", of moved tanks. http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/06/14/us-ukraine-crisis-....

1. Money quote from NATO statement from Reuters article that you've provided: "but where they came from is in dispute."

> There are similar articles about the BUK anti air system

2. There is no solid evidence for the claim that BUK came from Russia also. But let's assume that it did, just for the sake of not forking the discussion.

3. What's wrong with "therealnews" interviews with acclaimed experts which credentials you are free to check?

>You seem to not argue against that Putin lied about military involvement before the Krim takeover.

4. Yes, what I argue is that the current insurgency is supported by population of Donetsk and Luhansk regions and I've provided sources for that statement. Which means that Kiev Government is at war with (part of) it's own population.

5. What I also state is that reunification with Russia has had overwhelming support from the people of Crimea.

>You claim that there aren't enough proofs (and/or that all Western media lies) that his junta is doing exactly the same thing now, just because it looks so similar in action/time?

What "same thing" are you talking about? (I am asking this just to be sure that we are talking about the same thing).

> (I am sorry if this makes you sound stupid/dishonest, but...)

I's OK. I appreciate that you are assuming good faith on my part.

Edit 2:

>Edit 3: Russia shot artillery at Ukraine (just more lies, of course): http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28476153

Money quote from the BBC article: "the US says it has evidence that Russia has fired artillery across the border targeting Ukrainian military positions".

The US has also said that pre-invasion Iraq has had WMD. And that Assad has used nerve gas.

BugBrotherOP11y ago

TL;DR: I read two points. One is contradicted by multiple sources at Wikipedia, the other argues that everything pipy dislikes from USA can be ignored. I quit the discussion in disgust over wasted time. :-(

>>Yes, what I argue is that the current insurgency is supported by population of Donetsk and Luhansk regions and I've provided sources for that statement

(I don't bother to look up your references, since it certainly won't be from mainstream media or similar.)

You are contradicted by Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donetsk_People%27s_Republic#Pub...

In a poll [..] in the first half of February 2014, 33.2% of polled in Donetsk Oblast believed "Ukraine and Russia must unite into a single state".[27]

According to a poll [...] 66% of Donetsk residents view their future in a united Ukraine

A second poll conducted 26–29 March showed that 77% of residents condemned the takeover of administrative buildings, while 16% support such actions. Furthermore, 40.8% of Donetsk citizens support rallies for Ukraine's unity, while 26.5% support rallies which are pro-Russia

And so on.

>> Money quote from the BBC article: "the US says it has evidence that Russia has fired artillery across the border targeting Ukrainian military positions". [Etc.]

The first thing I check is contradicted by Wikipedia (that and its sources is a conspiracy too?).

The second "argument" I read is "We can ignore that, USA just lies". (It is hardly just USA that claimed Assad used nerve gas. Any proofs against? Never mind, you read it in Putin's media so it must be true.)

Seriously? That is what you have?

I have spent too much time on this. :-(

pipy11y ago

I appreciate that you took time to write an answer.

> (I don't bother to look up your references, since it certainly won't be from mainstream media or similar.)

Then how can you possibly have an informed opinion if you limit your sources of information to Western mainstream media?

> You are contradicted by Wikipedia.

No, I am not, because I have provided quote about May polls, not February or March ones. February ones were made before overthrow of Yanukovich (Donetsk and Luhansk regions were one of the big electoral bases for Yanukovich), and March before the fight for federalization of Ukrainian State by the people of Donetsk and Luhansk regions was completely ignored by Kiev Government.

And it is very important difference from the sociological point of view, because it was also after the Odessa Massacre and Ukrainian Forces attack on Mariupol. BTW, the author of the quote, sociologist Volodymyr Ishchenko is an author of The Guardian newspaper [1]. Is he not mainstream enough for you?

Which means that you've cross-checked one source and now erroneously claim that it is not credible.

> I have spent too much time on this. :-(

I can understand you. What is my point of view is that one should trust no single party or source of information to be credible and do research for oneself. And this is the only way to be free, as in Freedom.

> Any proofs against?

Food for thought:

"Possible Implications of Faulty US Technical Intelligence in the Damascus Nerve Agent Attack of August 21, 2013" by Richard Lloyd, Former UN Weapons Inspector [2]

"Congress Members Who Have Seen Classified Evidence About Syria Say It Fails to Prove Anything" (has number of first-party sources). [3]

"UN Investigator Undercuts NYT on Syria" by Robert Parry, former Newsweek and AP reporter [4]:

The lead author of the UN report on the Aug. 21 incident has contradicted the much-touted “vectoring” claims of a New York Times front-page story and Human Rights Watch, which has been pushing for a U.S. military intervention in Syria.

The UN inspectors have voiced uncertainty about who carried out the attack. At the press conference, Sellstrom admitted, “I don’t have information that would stand in court.” He also told Wall Street Journal writer Joe Lauria that both sides in the conflict had the “opportunity” and the “capability” to carry out chemical weapons attacks.

Etc. Wish you good luck!

[1] http://www.theguardian.com/profile/volodymyr-ishchenko

[2] https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.documentcloud.org/documents/1006...

[3] http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/09/classified-intelligen...

[4] http://consortiumnews.com/2013/12/23/un-investigator-undercu...

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