Grid-connected Electric Buses Could Displace Diesels (opens in new tab)

(spectrum.ieee.org)

35 pointsEEGuy11y ago24 comments

24 comments

An electric-grid bus system is highly successful in Seattle. They reviewed the "trolleybus" system in 2011 and it continues to operate.

http://metro.kingcounty.gov/up/projects/trolleyevaluation.ht...

hristov11y ago

Also in san francisco. Also all over eastern europe. These trolleybuses are really good in places with hills because electric engines have very nice fat torque curves. If you put an internal combustion engine bus on the hills of SF there will be a lot of smoke, noise and gear grinding.

However the existing trolleybuses require overhead wires which are unsightly and become very expensive for places with lower population densities. This talks about running buses off batteries which is relatively new.

Decade11y ago

As a rider, the trolleys are my least favorite vehicles. In theory, electric is great, lots of torque, whatever. In practice, they're the slowest vehicles in MUNI's diverse fleet. Go too fast, and the trolley pole comes off the wire, and the driver has to walk back and reconnect it. Get stuck behind a slow driver, and you have a whole pile of buses moving glacially. My least favorite time was when I had to use either the 14 or the 49, depending on the destination, because they share a lot of the same route.

The diesels work just fine on first or second gear, and the steepest hills with buses are diesel. I find especially amusing how the 29 scrapes the ground when it moves on and off from Excelsior Heights. The very steepest hills with public transportation have cable cars, obviously.

1 more reply

wcummings11y ago

Boston also has these, some are still diesel, though.

stephengillie11y ago

The electric buses constitute only a small fleet of one bus company, out of the handful operating in Seattle.

andrewliebchen11y ago

Cambridge, Watertown, and other cities and towns outside of Boston as well.

walshemj11y ago

You know I thought you where supposed to write about one thing at a time.

This article is about two separate and almost totally unconnected things.

1 using hybrid vehicles as load balancers for grid (highly inefficient BTW) 2 replacing diesel busses with electric vehicles.

BTW a grid connected bus is called a trolleybus.

Moru11y ago

Here in Sweden we have some battery-buss that can travel 60 minutes on a 5 minute charge. It just stops at the end station for five minutes and then runs it's round again. Still on testing stage. Very comfortable and quiet, tried it last time I took the bus :-)

http://hybricon.se/word/projects/buses/

jacquesm11y ago

That's extremely nicely packaged tech. Thanks for posting this. Electrical buses have been around just about forever but this is by far the nicest integrated whole that I've seen.

1 more reply

walshemj11y ago

Interesting especially the way the use the pantograph to do the charging well away from the passengers.

jmspring11y ago

This reminds me of he guy who hacked to prius to run on the Muni lines in SF --

http://www.thebolditalic.com/articles/4717-hacked-prius-runn...

userbinator11y ago

Unfortunately it was an April Fools, but Trollius would've been a great name for it.

jarvuschris11y ago

Funny that a guy named Firestone is hyping it, considering what happened the last time grid-connected electric vehicles became popular: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_consp...

eli11y ago

...allegedly. It's got "conspiracy" in the title for a reason.

lobster_johnson11y ago

The word "conspiracy" does not imply lack of evidence (although it's often used that way in popular culture). In fact, "conspiracy" is a legal term [1] describing an illegal act of collusion.

And in this case, part of the conspiracy was confirmed by the court, and there were some convictions. From Wikipedia:

    In 1949, Firestone Tire, Standard Oil of California,
    Phillips Petroleum, GM and Mack Trucks were convicted
    of conspiring to monopolize the sale of buses and
    related products to local transit companies
    controlled by NCL and other companies ...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_(civil), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_(criminal)

Shivetya11y ago

Considering what school systems pay in fuel bills I am surprised there isn't more effort made at state if not national levels in the US to come up with an affordable if not subsidized by the Fed electric school bus.

It would eliminate the hazards of diesel/gasoline fumes for students; it has been measured that inside the parked bus actually can be worse than outside so many districts forbid parked buses from idling. Throw in the sheer amount of fuel used and they should recoup their costs. However I expect some to go the natural gas route as its known and cheaper.

ams611011y ago

Our local school system looked into hybrid buses a few years ago. Amazingly they did a rather unbiased analysis and found that there was not a financial advantage to be realized and they stayed with conventional gasoline and diesel buses.

Natural gas is likely the cleaner but still practical compromise. Remember school buses are also used for things such as transporting athletic teams, bands, orchestras, etc. to events that are farther away than the range of an electric vehicle.

jessaustin11y ago

...events that are farther away than the range of an electric vehicle.

This would be a reason to have four or five conventional-fuel vehicles. 90% of most fleets could still be shorter-range.

ensignavenger11y ago

That would be an interesting analysis to see- any chance you could get a copy and post it?

"...school buses are also used for things such as transporting athletic teams, bands, orchestras, etc..."

I don't think many schools need their entire fleet to be able to transport students long distances. They could convert some, or maybe even most, of the buses to electric, depending on the circumstances.

tomohawk11y ago

Seems like hydraulic hybrids would be a good fit, too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_hybrid

I think existing buses can be retrofitted for a modest price.

EEGuyOP11y ago

Another concept for V2G possibilities, perhaps with more predictability and utility than personal vehicle V2G.

No info on battery longevity, and the economic analysis assunes a 14-year vehicle lifespan.

vertex-four11y ago

Here in the UK, most cities have at least some form of much-marketed hybrid bus. I'm not sure how much they save, but obviously there's an incentive to at least try it out.

lobster_johnson11y ago

NYC, under Bloomberg, invested grandly in hybrid buses, but after several years the MTA decided to go back to diesel, blaming lack of reliability:

http://www.ibtimes.com/new-york-city-scrapping-nearly-fourth...

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

24 comments

stephengillie11y ago

An electric-grid bus system is highly successful in Seattle. They reviewed the "trolleybus" system in 2011 and it continues to operate.

http://metro.kingcounty.gov/up/projects/trolleyevaluation.ht...

hristov11y ago

Decade11y ago

1 more reply

wcummings11y ago

Boston also has these, some are still diesel, though.

stephengillie11y ago

The electric buses constitute only a small fleet of one bus company, out of the handful operating in Seattle.

andrewliebchen11y ago

Cambridge, Watertown, and other cities and towns outside of Boston as well.

walshemj11y ago

You know I thought you where supposed to write about one thing at a time.

This article is about two separate and almost totally unconnected things.

1 using hybrid vehicles as load balancers for grid (highly inefficient BTW) 2 replacing diesel busses with electric vehicles.

BTW a grid connected bus is called a trolleybus.

Moru11y ago

http://hybricon.se/word/projects/buses/

jacquesm11y ago

That's extremely nicely packaged tech. Thanks for posting this. Electrical buses have been around just about forever but this is by far the nicest integrated whole that I've seen.

1 more reply

walshemj11y ago

Interesting especially the way the use the pantograph to do the charging well away from the passengers.

jmspring11y ago

This reminds me of he guy who hacked to prius to run on the Muni lines in SF --

http://www.thebolditalic.com/articles/4717-hacked-prius-runn...

userbinator11y ago

Unfortunately it was an April Fools, but Trollius would've been a great name for it.

jarvuschris11y ago

Funny that a guy named Firestone is hyping it, considering what happened the last time grid-connected electric vehicles became popular: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_consp...

eli11y ago

...allegedly. It's got "conspiracy" in the title for a reason.

lobster_johnson11y ago

The word "conspiracy" does not imply lack of evidence (although it's often used that way in popular culture). In fact, "conspiracy" is a legal term [1] describing an illegal act of collusion.

And in this case, part of the conspiracy was confirmed by the court, and there were some convictions. From Wikipedia:

    In 1949, Firestone Tire, Standard Oil of California,
    Phillips Petroleum, GM and Mack Trucks were convicted
    of conspiring to monopolize the sale of buses and
    related products to local transit companies
    controlled by NCL and other companies ...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_(civil), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_(criminal)

Shivetya11y ago

ams611011y ago

jessaustin11y ago

...events that are farther away than the range of an electric vehicle.

This would be a reason to have four or five conventional-fuel vehicles. 90% of most fleets could still be shorter-range.

ensignavenger11y ago

That would be an interesting analysis to see- any chance you could get a copy and post it?

"...school buses are also used for things such as transporting athletic teams, bands, orchestras, etc..."

tomohawk11y ago

Seems like hydraulic hybrids would be a good fit, too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_hybrid

I think existing buses can be retrofitted for a modest price.

EEGuyOP11y ago

Another concept for V2G possibilities, perhaps with more predictability and utility than personal vehicle V2G.

No info on battery longevity, and the economic analysis assunes a 14-year vehicle lifespan.

vertex-four11y ago

Here in the UK, most cities have at least some form of much-marketed hybrid bus. I'm not sure how much they save, but obviously there's an incentive to at least try it out.

lobster_johnson11y ago

NYC, under Bloomberg, invested grandly in hybrid buses, but after several years the MTA decided to go back to diesel, blaming lack of reliability:

http://www.ibtimes.com/new-york-city-scrapping-nearly-fourth...

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse