undefined | Better HN

0 pointslectrick12y ago0 comments

Given a programming task, it will be written faster, easier, and in a more maintainable and less bug-prone fashion if it is not PHP.

The opposite opinion is basically indefensible. Sure, you can still dig a trench with a spoon (and if you have enough money to wield a bunch of workers with a spoon), even if a shovel would do a better job.

Let's begin.

1) PHP autocraptastically converts strings that look like numbers, into numbers, resulting in all sorts of weirdness like this: https://eval.in/111886

2) PHP 5.4's OWN TEST SUITE has 91 failures and only 70% coverage. There is NOTHING more "WTF" than that! Why even bother having a test suite?? http://gcov.php.net/viewer.php?version=PHP_5_4

3) Why the fuck are all of these different things equal, and how does this NOT result in problems? http://i.imgur.com/pyDTn2i.png

4) String increment is dumb to begin with, but why does it not even match the behavior of string decrement? https://eval.in/60631

5) Why the hell can you jump back into a try block from a catch block? Recipe for disaster: http://phpmanualmasterpieces.tumblr.com/post/33091353115/the...

6) PHP comparison operators. I'm sorry, but this level of complexity might make you feel smart once you master all its idiotsyncrasies [sic], but it's actually dumb: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/15813490/php-type-jugglin...

That's a small fraction of not-thought-out PHP language features that result in REAL bugs and security holes. Which consume large swathes of programmer time. Which, apparently, Facebook can afford to swallow.

I'm sorry, but your position, as valiant as you are defending it, is literally indefensible. And I don't give a fuck how big Facebook is, they would STILL be better-served by switching SOME of their code to a different language. ANY modern programming language wouldn't suffer from this imbecilic, immature language design.

0 comments

8 comments · 4 top-level

orblivion12y ago· 3 in thread

You're making a mistake. The question is not whether to start a company with PHP vs language X. The company is long started. The question is not whether or not to poof into existence a port from all of FB to language X. That's not possible. The question is, given that PHP is the current language, with all its faults, will it it cost more (including all definitions of cost) to make the switch? How long will it take? Does it get the job done? How bad is the damage?

The question more pertinent to your argument is, did they make a mistake years ago choosing PHP? That's when the could have conceivably gone with language X.

BTW the types of stuff you're listing are documented here. So thorough it's amusing to read: http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-de...

bad_user12y ago

> The question is not whether or not to poof into existence a port from all of FB to language X. That's not possible.

And yet Twitter has slowly migrated on the backend from Ruby to Scala/Java. They still use Ruby for the frontend, though it's not clear to what extent, since they've also migrated to a single-page, fat client design on the desktop. And at the very least, their choice of using Ruby when prototyping, was at least sane.

I understand that large codebases can't be migrated easily. But you can migrate individual components when needed, if you have a modular, service-oriented design.

Also - building new functionality in PHP is indefensible, unless their code-base is one big monolithic hairball, which I doubt it is.

lectrickOP12y ago

> The question is, given that PHP is the current language, with all its faults, will it it cost more (including all definitions of cost) to make the switch? How long will it take? Does it get the job done? How bad is the damage?

An excellent point. Which in fact is an argument in favor of modularizing your code as much as possible, as early as possible. There are tools now like Apache Thrift which make this easier: http://thrift.apache.org/

eevee12y ago

Why thank you :)

ghotli12y ago· 1 in thread

I can't fathom why you're under the impression that some code hasn't been switched to another language. Furthermore, your vitriol seems quite effective at undermining your thesis.

lectrickOP12y ago

Fair enough. And to be honest, there was a single night not too many years ago where I wrote up an auction site that had most of the functionality of eBay, in a single night, in PHP (someone else had already done the frontend work, fortunately- I just built the backend).

juchem12y ago

It's interesting how most people seem to attribute the quality and longevity of a software to the language it is written in or the frameworks it uses rather than to the amount of thought that was put into its design. Sure, the former is important, but largely overrated.

cybernytrix12y ago

I think most of you guys are missing a crucial thing here -- how decisions get made. Facebook had two options: 1.) Rewrite all the PHP code in Java/Ruby/C++/whatever 2.) Write HHVM/Hack/etc to transparently convert the existing PHP code.

Option #2 ended up getting a lot of publicity for the engineers. If they chose option #1, not only is it a lot of hard boring and possibly error prone work, there is no chance for any of the engineers to get the type of publicity they are currently getting. All in all, engineers tend to work on whatever will make them get noticed, not necessarily the better technical choice nor what is in the best interest of the company... this is especially true in companies like Facebook and Google where there are a lot of very smart engineers doing relatively mundane work. So there you have it Hack/HHVM are all just publicity stunts, the more you feed it, the happier their PR gets.

1 more reply

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

0 comments

8 comments · 4 top-level

orblivion12y ago· 3 in thread

The question more pertinent to your argument is, did they make a mistake years ago choosing PHP? That's when the could have conceivably gone with language X.

BTW the types of stuff you're listing are documented here. So thorough it's amusing to read: http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-de...

bad_user12y ago

> The question is not whether or not to poof into existence a port from all of FB to language X. That's not possible.

I understand that large codebases can't be migrated easily. But you can migrate individual components when needed, if you have a modular, service-oriented design.

Also - building new functionality in PHP is indefensible, unless their code-base is one big monolithic hairball, which I doubt it is.

lectrickOP12y ago

eevee12y ago

Why thank you :)

ghotli12y ago· 1 in thread

I can't fathom why you're under the impression that some code hasn't been switched to another language. Furthermore, your vitriol seems quite effective at undermining your thesis.

lectrickOP12y ago

juchem12y ago

cybernytrix12y ago

1 more reply

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse