New release of Self programming language (opens in new tab)

(blog.selflanguage.org)

105 pointsrussellallen12y ago42 comments

42 comments

32 comments · 7 top-level

mortyseinfeld12y ago· 7 in thread

IIRC, some of the techniques used in the Self VM eventually made it into the JVM.

Ahh yes, the relevant LtU thread. http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/1185#comment-12831

They transferred via Sun's acquisition of the Strongtalk team (that also got them Gilad Bracha). Strongtalk was also one of the first hybrid typed languages (like Dart and Typescript).

Much of the innovation in dynamic language run-times today also uses ideas from Self. Most of the Self people are working at Google today in various high positions.

agumonkey12y ago

Here's a talk from Lars Bak about v8 and Dart http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Performance-V8-Dart

1 more reply

alayne12y ago

I always wonder if the Self people felt bad about their VM efforts going into Java. Java has really been one of the least inventive and progressive languages.

seanmcdirmid12y ago

I doubt they would feel sad about their technology being adopted by a mainstream language used by millions of developers vs. a research experimental language that many outside of research haven't even heard of before.

1 more reply

bhrgunatha12y ago

Presumably some of that effort is responsible for the JVM begin chosen to host other languages.

cageface12y ago

Java brought garbage collection into the mainstream. That alone is enough to consider it progressive.

1 more reply

mhd12y ago

I've always wondered that about Guy Steele. Must've been an awfully well-paid job.

secstate12y ago· 6 in thread

Haha ... funny to read about people scratching their head over Self. I feel like once you've wrapped your head around the Squeak version of Smalltalk, your about 50% of the way towards understanding Self. It's not a language the way we think of it, with CLI tools and syntax and text editors. It is a mutable environment of programmable objects. Sure there's some writing inside of objects to create methods, but you're not gonna find a "try this in the browser" code.

Self is/was http://noflojs.org/ 's grandfather.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYEKO7JcmLE

I would also argue that Self is to programming languages what Haiku is to OS development. No on is writing a web framework in self, it's more of a toy and a neat artifact of where programming has been and could go in the future.

seanmcdirmid12y ago

Smalltalk is still class based. The only strong connection between Self and Squeak is Morphic.

russellallenOP12y ago

Much of the syntax is similar too:

  (2 + 4) == 5 ifTrue: [ Transcript show: 'Yay!' ] "Squeak"
  (2 + 4) == 5 ifTrue: [ 'Yay!' printLine ] "Self"

1 more reply

tel12y ago

I feel like my personal challenges coming to understand Self are often exaggerated by Morphic. Most of the linguistic notions I gather from reading papers aren't too tough, but I always bounce off when trying to translate that to effects in the Self environment.

2 more replies

secstate12y ago

I stand corrected :)

doublec12y ago

There is actually a basic web server example. It includes a web based object browser. I'm not sure if it's in the 4.5.0 release but it's one of the branches IIRC.

steveklabnik12y ago

They mean you won't find something like http://tryruby.org

1 more reply

primitivesuave12y ago· 5 in thread

If this language is looking for greater adoption, its website is doing a big disservice. It is incredibly challenging to find a single code snippet, and the documentation is mediocre at best. The interfaces that are shown in the documentation remind me of the computer system you see DMV employees fumbling around with. I love picking up random languages on a Sunday, but not this one.

russellallenOP12y ago

Yeah, its a fair cop. The website is old and more about people who already know about Self than people who don't. I'll put fixing it on my todo list.

primitivesuave12y ago

Thank you for not taking my comment negatively, I completely understand the amount of work that goes into documentation and the other comments on this article helped me understand the usefulness of Self. I've bookmarked the page and will check it out some Sunday in the future.

sebastianconcpt12y ago

That's the spirit!

It would be greatly appreciated

ape412y ago

Just follow the link on the site to the Wikipedia article ;)

jnazario12y ago

concur (and upvoted). i took a few minutes, peeked around at some other "niche" languages (you know, not exactly mainstream) to see how they fare in this - rust, D, julia, haskell - and compared them to python.org's website. python's is far more like the self site than like those others, it takes several clicks to get to a code snippet.

so, i concur, but i think it's (sadly) not alone in that shortcoming.

GeZe12y ago· 4 in thread

Self was one of the inspirations behind JavaScript, particularly its prototype system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_(programming_language)

flarg12y ago

I spent some time with Self in the late 90s (at college of course!) and it was impressive on several counts: first, it's JIT compiler allowed Smalltalk to run faster when implemented in Self than without - the same JIT technique was later re-used in Java Hotspots [1]; second, the programming environment was a multi-user environment called Kansas that allowed a whole classroom of students to develop "prototypes" in the same environment (Kansas [2] [3])

[1] http://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Self_(p...

[2] http://web.media.mit.edu/~lieber/Lieberary/Softviz/CACM-Debu...

[3] http://bluishcoder.co.nz/2013/09/16/multiple-users-in-a-self...

masklinn12y ago

Except for the part where what Self calls prototype has no equivalent in javascript (constructors are close to Self's `copy` message, but not quite the same) and what javascript calls prototype Self calls mixin (or traits, depending whether they've got ancestors up to the lobby themselves). And a Self object can have multiple mixins and add or remove them at runtime.

Pacabel12y ago

The "JavaScript is like Self" fallacy is just another variant of the "JavaScript is like Scheme" fallacy. It sounds great to the person claiming it, and to an unsuspecting audience. But on closer inspection, the similarities between the two languages are minimal at best.

protomyth12y ago

Newtonscript was also a descendent. Although I like Objective-C, I do miss Newtonscript and the soup. Prototype-based programming often had a nicer feel than [edit]class[/edit] systems.

http://newtonscript.org - look at the "SELF and the Origins of NewtonScript" down the page

burntsushi12y ago· 2 in thread

I've never heard of Self. So I wanted to find more about it. I had to click on several links to find some example of the language. I found this.[1]

    In the graphical representation of the object, we can distinguish
    method slots from data slots, and constant slots from assignable
    slots, by the icon in the button at the right hand of the slot.

Huh? Maybe I should go find a description of the language.[2]

    Self is an object-oriented programming language and associated
    programming environment. It is close in spirit and semantics to
    Smalltalk

Oh! Okay. Now I get it. But that's only because I'm vaguely familiar with Smalltalk.

(My intention of this comment is to save others some time trying to discover some basic facts about Self.)

[1] - http://selflanguage.org/_static/tutorial/Language/ObjectsAnd...

[2] - http://selflanguage.org/_static/tutorial/General/WhatIsSelf....

doublec12y ago

I have a couple of short screencasts showing Self in action if you're interested:

http://bluishcoder.co.nz/2013/09/16/multiple-users-in-a-self...

http://bluishcoder.co.nz/2009/07/27/displaying-images-with-s...

burntsushi12y ago

Thanks. I watched your videos and now I have a better clue about what Self is. It's personally not my cup of tea, but it would have been really nice if the Self web site had one of your videos on it (or something a bit more introductory). Particularly given its graphical nature...

pstack12y ago· 1 in thread

I guess I'm the only dummy who wasn't thinking of the actual Self language and thought I was going to be reading about a programming language that wrote programs by itself.

Yeah. I'll show myself to the seat in the corner. Sheesh.

szatkus12y ago

You're not alone...

doublec12y ago

There's some interesting Self papers listed in the /r/selflanguage reddit for those that want to do some reading:

http://www.reddit.com/r/selflanguage

This is my attempt at a JSON parser using Self's Mango parser package:

https://gist.github.com/doublec/7132119

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

42 comments

32 comments · 7 top-level

mortyseinfeld12y ago· 7 in thread

IIRC, some of the techniques used in the Self VM eventually made it into the JVM.

Ahh yes, the relevant LtU thread. http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/1185#comment-12831

seanmcdirmid12y ago

They transferred via Sun's acquisition of the Strongtalk team (that also got them Gilad Bracha). Strongtalk was also one of the first hybrid typed languages (like Dart and Typescript).

Much of the innovation in dynamic language run-times today also uses ideas from Self. Most of the Self people are working at Google today in various high positions.

agumonkey12y ago

Here's a talk from Lars Bak about v8 and Dart http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Performance-V8-Dart

1 more reply

alayne12y ago

I always wonder if the Self people felt bad about their VM efforts going into Java. Java has really been one of the least inventive and progressive languages.

seanmcdirmid12y ago

1 more reply

bhrgunatha12y ago

Presumably some of that effort is responsible for the JVM begin chosen to host other languages.

cageface12y ago

Java brought garbage collection into the mainstream. That alone is enough to consider it progressive.

1 more reply

mhd12y ago

I've always wondered that about Guy Steele. Must've been an awfully well-paid job.

secstate12y ago· 6 in thread

Self is/was http://noflojs.org/ 's grandfather.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYEKO7JcmLE

seanmcdirmid12y ago

Smalltalk is still class based. The only strong connection between Self and Squeak is Morphic.

russellallenOP12y ago

Much of the syntax is similar too:

  (2 + 4) == 5 ifTrue: [ Transcript show: 'Yay!' ] "Squeak"
  (2 + 4) == 5 ifTrue: [ 'Yay!' printLine ] "Self"

1 more reply

tel12y ago

2 more replies

secstate12y ago

I stand corrected :)

doublec12y ago

There is actually a basic web server example. It includes a web based object browser. I'm not sure if it's in the 4.5.0 release but it's one of the branches IIRC.

steveklabnik12y ago

They mean you won't find something like http://tryruby.org

1 more reply

primitivesuave12y ago· 5 in thread

russellallenOP12y ago

Yeah, its a fair cop. The website is old and more about people who already know about Self than people who don't. I'll put fixing it on my todo list.

primitivesuave12y ago

sebastianconcpt12y ago

That's the spirit!

It would be greatly appreciated

ape412y ago

Just follow the link on the site to the Wikipedia article ;)

jnazario12y ago

so, i concur, but i think it's (sadly) not alone in that shortcoming.

GeZe12y ago· 4 in thread

Self was one of the inspirations behind JavaScript, particularly its prototype system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_(programming_language)

flarg12y ago

[1] http://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Self_(p...

[2] http://web.media.mit.edu/~lieber/Lieberary/Softviz/CACM-Debu...

[3] http://bluishcoder.co.nz/2013/09/16/multiple-users-in-a-self...

masklinn12y ago

Pacabel12y ago

protomyth12y ago

Newtonscript was also a descendent. Although I like Objective-C, I do miss Newtonscript and the soup. Prototype-based programming often had a nicer feel than [edit]class[/edit] systems.

http://newtonscript.org - look at the "SELF and the Origins of NewtonScript" down the page

burntsushi12y ago· 2 in thread

I've never heard of Self. So I wanted to find more about it. I had to click on several links to find some example of the language. I found this.[1]

    In the graphical representation of the object, we can distinguish
    method slots from data slots, and constant slots from assignable
    slots, by the icon in the button at the right hand of the slot.

Huh? Maybe I should go find a description of the language.[2]

    Self is an object-oriented programming language and associated
    programming environment. It is close in spirit and semantics to
    Smalltalk

Oh! Okay. Now I get it. But that's only because I'm vaguely familiar with Smalltalk.

(My intention of this comment is to save others some time trying to discover some basic facts about Self.)

[1] - http://selflanguage.org/_static/tutorial/Language/ObjectsAnd...

[2] - http://selflanguage.org/_static/tutorial/General/WhatIsSelf....

doublec12y ago

I have a couple of short screencasts showing Self in action if you're interested:

http://bluishcoder.co.nz/2013/09/16/multiple-users-in-a-self...

http://bluishcoder.co.nz/2009/07/27/displaying-images-with-s...

burntsushi12y ago

pstack12y ago· 1 in thread

I guess I'm the only dummy who wasn't thinking of the actual Self language and thought I was going to be reading about a programming language that wrote programs by itself.

Yeah. I'll show myself to the seat in the corner. Sheesh.

szatkus12y ago

You're not alone...

doublec12y ago

There's some interesting Self papers listed in the /r/selflanguage reddit for those that want to do some reading:

http://www.reddit.com/r/selflanguage

This is my attempt at a JSON parser using Self's Mango parser package:

https://gist.github.com/doublec/7132119

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse