I don't think any European here would disagree. The fact that you categorise someone as "black" is just awful. How black exactly do they have to be? Are you going to measure it? Are southern Italians black? What about Turks? ... See the problem?
Edit: Just want to point out that I'm not talking about the specific word "black". Use whatever word you want. Just to put this into context: here, in Belgium, it's actually illegal to register someone's "race" (except for medical reasons).
I'm from the UK, and I'm mystified as to why you think that.
> Are southern Italians black? What about Turks? ... See the problem?
I see what the problem would be if the programme organizers were seeking to police the gender / ethnicity of attendees, but my guess is it's probably open to anybody who identifies as a black girl.
Irrelevant grammatical aside: Why is somebody who attends something an attendee, not an attender?
One way to look at this is would people be equaly or less offended if it said "White" instead of Black and with that why not stop there and have "Yellow", "Brown", see when you do that it starts to stand out as more offencive than having "Black" and that is perhaps a whole avenue of psycology than I'm up for.
In short I personaly think it and any descrimination that you have no control over is wrong, you can't pick your skin colour or gender and with that any form of descrimination be it positive or negative is setting a bad example in society when it is only trying to restore balance albiet in a way that creates inbalance in a form it is trying to prevent.
Still for every rule there is an exception, least programming teaches this.
Say it like how it is.
Black girls are black girls!
Have SEX on the registration form, we don't need to change to GENDER.
I also think no joke is inappropriate given the right context. However, as a human race (one who has developed advance language as a tool) we need to education our young on becoming aware of our own interpretation of the meaning of words. Mainly, we are responsible for making up the meaning of the word we hear/read, not the person who is saying the words. And it should human-being's number one priority to listen to what others are saying.
Just listen.
People who take offense to any verbal/written communication are just NOT emotionally matured, and they may want to take offense, and that is ok. It is certainly their rights and choice to do so.
Verbal abuse doesn't exist, it is just a figment of imagination.
Tell that to psychologically damaged children who grew up with narcissistic parents. This is one of the most ignorant things I've seen around here. I expect this kind of stuff on reddit, but not here.
Also, since a lot of people of color refer to themselves as black even in Europe, I don't see how it would be inappropriate. Unless of course the word in another language is also a racial slur.
Or just "Any Kids Code" and run the class in a poor neighborhood where rich parents don't want to go.
Words have cultural connotations. I don't think one can make the claim that a word is "awful" by how its understood in a completely different culture.
> Are southern Italians black? What about Turks?
No. Black typically refers to people who are indigenous members of the African diaspora. As it's been used in the west, it's not typically resting solely on complexion (e.g they had another set of nasty names for darker people from Europe and Asia).
I understand this is highly contextual, and that there may be native categorizations that are similar to specific regions, but I hope this clarifies how it applies.
> Just to put this into context: here, in Belgium, it's actually illegal to register someone's "race" (except for medical reasons).
I'm still curious why this is considered progress. As I've seen it in other countries, it doesn't do much to address racial issues in a society. The elimination of a box on state forms doesn't mean that it's somehow removed or diminished in that society.
These days, and for decades past, it's about what they want to call themselves. Who "they" refers exactly to is mostly lost on me.
http://www.nus.org.uk/en/who-we-are/how-we-work/black-studen...
Nevertheless let's try.
We can do better, HN. We can do better than "this wouldn't fly in Belgium" as the top-rated comment.
BTW: Belgium? Not historically a model for even-handed tolerance with respect to black people: https://www.google.com/search?q=king+leopold&safe=off&rlz=1C...
AKA Black Pete. Yes, people in Belgium and The Netherlands still dress up in blackface during the Christmas season.
"Black Girls CODE is an international non-profit organization with local chapters in San Francisco, Memphis, Atlanta, Chicago, Detroit, and New York. They teach girls of color (ages 7-17) to become the masters of their technological futures by teaching them classes in game design, web development, robotics and more!"
Why not teach all girls or call it, 'Impoverished Girls Code?'
Theory: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6441795
Potential examples:
1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6885123
2. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6365495
3. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6448409
4. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6857739
5. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6035263 - This is the most obvious one.
6. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6902563 - Cover up.
7. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6907915
Your theory is that anything positive about Black people is pounced on by trolls. To me, evidence of this would be a story about an individual Black programmer, for example, or (as you say) programmers in Oakland.
But this is a story specifically about a program for Black girls learning to code. Race is not incidental, it is central to the story. So for you to claim some kind of hidden agenda because people with differing views on race post in these stories, is ridiculous.
However, it's not. I don't mind if there's some specific "help children of fallen 9/11 firefighters" program, or "black girls code", or whatever, because there are plenty of other programs for other people.
I donated $10, which thanks to the magic of Alexis, is $20. It took less time than to write this comment.
It's a sort of "affirmative action," which I'm often opposed to, but in this case I am not because the opportunity is focused in a massive deficit.
On a side note, it's interesting that your outrage applies to race but not gender separations.
And I think I used the term 'troubled' and not 'outraged.'
Consider:
Black girls code (cool!) People from challenging backgrounds code (ok) People from challenging backgrounds do impressive things (...)
Eventually you get out to the 'thin' ethical properties and you end up just running a campaign to promote The Good.
You always have limited resources, so it's better to pick out a tight vertical to start out from, where your resources, experience and skill have a much bigger impact.
Why does picking a "tight vertical" have a much bigger impact?
Poverty may be a component of the problem they are seeking to address, but it may not be the only component. Whether or not it should be the case, different demographics -- whether divided by race or gender -- are socialized differently and its not unreasonable to think that they may be best reached by different means, and that part of the reason certain groups are underrepresented is that existing routes into the field serve some groups better than others, and that equalizing access means, in part, finding better ways to serve those groups that are currently underrepresented.
There are groups whose focus is gender but not race, e.g., http://www.girlswhocode.com/
Why not teach black people of all genders?
Why not teach everyone?
(I am not saying I believe anything implied by any of these questions)
I expect better from Hacker News.
Reply to child:
Now you're essentially calling white males racist, but the comments in this thread have nothing to do with how white men feel about other genders and races.
I have never been to an event wherein I've seen anything but positive vibes towards all people attending.
Do you feel the same way about the sexist component of this? Should I be annoyed that "Boys code" would be persecuted but "Girls code" is all good?
(I'm not saying there are any correct answers to my questions)
This does happen with regards to men as well, if that's the worry—in areas where men are underrepresented. For example there is a professional association specifically to support men in nursing and recruit more men into the profession: http://aamn.org/
"Have historically been unluckier than", "are systematically objectified socially and repressed economically by"--I understand your typo, though, the keys are so close to each other on the keyboard.
(The tenses are important, too. It isn't new, but it isn't dead.)
Also, the "black" in the title has the added problem of being superfluous feeling. "Code" does not convey what the group does. "Girls Code" conveys pretty well the this is a group of (female) children programmers. "Black Girls Code" conveys no additional information other than the fact that is is aimed at black girls specifically.
There is a sufficient deficit such that there are almost no role models and this sort affirmative action makes sense.
Is this really so complicated for hackers to understand?
I expect better from you guys. Perhaps that's my mistake.
To me this is as beneficial as a 'white girls rap' bootcamp, but hey, whatever helps.
Along with "Diaspora Developer" which hits class+immigration issues from a different angle.
What got you into coding by the way?
Downvotes and shaming are all these privileged white boys deserve.
I coach youth sports, and many times the kids on my teams come from poor families. When I talk to them about their interests, not once have they mentioned or indicated that they would be prevented from pursuing that interest.
I can't speak for anyone other than myself. But, from my experience, it is helpful to know that people who look like you can succeed in this world.
My family was temporarily poor, we had resources that few of my friends had. Both of my parents had advanced educations and my parents received inheritances that helped them start a small business.
My childhood friends had nothing to fall back on, of the ones that survived into adulthood, most of them ended up poorer than their parents.
It's not the teaching of the skill in itself that is problematic, or even (in my opinion) the attempt to make up for various sources of disadvantage.
What I object to is the idea that it is of great importance to eliminate racial and gender disparities, or that our society is incredibly bad because these disparities exist. This idea is what drives articles like this to the front page of HN.
Racial and gender disparities exist for a number of reasons, not simply the oppression of one group by another. Different groups have different cultures, interests and possibly innate abilities. I don't think anyone here would want to instantly eliminate the cultural differences between Black and White people.
The claim that the differences between groups are solely attributable to disadvantage and oppression is simply a claim. It is backed up by nothing but moralizing and posturing (note the number of posts here disparaging White "kids").
I also don't think that it is possible to entirely eliminate the disadvantage that minority groups often suffer, simply because people by nature tend to favor people who are similar to themselves, by any measure. I certainly wouldn't consider it wise to go to a random country, say Israel, and mandate that all cultures and viewpoints were to have equal status in that country, and that the majority would have to give up on all aspects of their culture that were not sufficiently inclusive or friendly to minorities.
Still, put us all in a room and I'm sure we'd get along fine.
If you have any comprehension of the racial history in the US and have to ask that then you really don't belong in this conversation.
The only people I see here are criticizing the existence of this charity for black girls, who are an already marginalized group. That's racism.
1. Why is there a white dude in the driver's seat on the donation page? That's a bit dances-with-wolves, and most of the (admittedly triggery) activist communities I orbit wouldn't stand for that sort of thing. If this isn't astroturf, where is the leadership from the community? (Which isn't to say they're not involved, I just want to see more presence so I know this is really for them.)
2. Usually the stated justification for a progressive segregated space (if there is such a thing -- not going to wade into that one) is to protect folks with PTSD oppression-related triggers. E.g. at many universities men aren't allowed in a lot of on-campus women's spaces for this reason. But it isn't clear if that's the case here, and if not, why is the space segregated? It would help me feel comfortable if they'd explain their reasoning.
In general, though, like I said: stoked.
For the second, if the goal is to try to get black girls into programming, then there's very little reason for them to spend the resources on other people. Why limit to black? Because the founder felt culturally isolated while going through EE, and wanted to minimize that from happening in the future. Why limit to girls? Because the founder felt culturally isolated while going through EE, and wanted to minimize that from happening in the future.
But seriously, the donation page should link to the charity's website: http://www.blackgirlscode.com/
Now consider that to most intelligent people that comment was the most useless thing they read all day.
For example why aren't we as concerned about the male domination of the sanitation industry?[1]
...and there are people who think the tech-community doesn't have a problem with race....
So, while I disagree with them, telling them that they're all assholes is useless.
Building equality is not a zero-sum game between those who-have and those who don't. It is the elevation of our collective humanity through empathy.
If we sympathize with those folks, HN comment threads become even more futile.
There's a lot of power into both taking the full fears of another into consideration while simultaneously trying to present the full fears of their Other to them.
The problem is, they tend to always be ran by the majority group to try to "give a helping hand" to the minority group. It's kind of a patronizing position. I didn't need a "helping hand" to become a programmer, and women are smart enough that they don't need a "helping hand" either. And they won't want it.
Think of it this way. There is an extremely similar situation in teaching, where there aren't a lot of young males going into the field. I have had some interest in becoming a certified teacher, having done some semi-formal class programs of various types, but I know for myself I would never go to a "Get Men to Teach" type of program. I wouldn't want to be treated special. I would just want to go through the normal program and be treated no more differently, either positively or negatively, than anyone else. In addition, a lot of people don't like to be told by outsiders that they're doing something "wrong", or that they should do something differently. Someone coming to a programmer conference and espousing how great it would be if more of us got into teaching is terribly unlikely to be convincing. I think most people are probably like this, and I think that's probably why, after two solid decades of "get more X to Y", we haven't really seen an increase in Xs Ying.
And while there is a lot of blame to be placed at the feet of the in-crowd treating the out-crowd poorly, and thus driving them away, I came to a greater realization that the problem was more that the in-crowd just never socializes with the out-crowd, period. I have very few friends who are teachers, but of the few that I have, I know most of their friends are teachers. I have a lot of programmer friends. It goes all the way back to college. I didn't know any teaching students, even though I went to one of the biggest teaching universities in the country, and we tended to have a very dull view of the few we even came into contact with. They tended to have a very dull view of us. The business students were the same. The art students were the same. Hell, even the physics students were the same. We were all compartmentalized from each other in our respective departments.
Then you go to work and the programmers are in one cube farm over here, and the accountants are in another, and the designers are separate. We've managed to create a culture that sees the segregation of people by skillset as a natural thing, and never question it.
And then you get companies saying "we can't hire qualified female programmers. They just don't apply!". Frankly, I don't think open-application is any sort of reliable way to find a decent employee. The only employees that I've known to stick around for a long time were ones that came with recommendations from current employees. You see it all the time, "the importance of networking". "But we haven't done anything to keep them away!" And that is mostly true (though it is important to recognize that there are several instances where active prejudice is still a problem, I think this is a much bigger problem). But employees are people, and trying to "hire more of <adjective>" is treating them like checkboxes, not people. Well, no wonder you don't see more female programmers, because most existing programmers are already male and they don't socialize with many women, period, say nothing about ones that would be interested in programming.
Anyway, my point is, I don't think these sort of "Xs working to get not-Xs to do more Y" are ever going to work, so long as the Xs mostly socialize with Xs. You want to find more black designers? Make more friends of black people. You want to find more female programmers? Make more friends of women. They are out there. While you personally may have not done anything to drive them away, you're also not doing anything to make them a whole part of your life, either. It will always be the case that men will be over represented in programming so long as men are the gate keepers into programming organizations and men do not do more to socialize with women as peers--with the complete reverse situation being true for women and men in teaching. And while you personally didn't ask to be the de facto gate keeper to your industry, the state of things is that you are. Tough shit. Play the hand you're dealt.
EDIT: long-story short, "Get more X to Y" is still treating the Xs as "others". These types of programs perpetuate that cycle. The answer is to eliminate the otherness of whatever property we're concerned about today.
I'm a white guy from Brooklyn who's been successful in tech -- I'm not running this organization, I'm just doing a crowdtilt fundraiser for it.
But, at the same time, there is a significant problem with the way that people have been trying to address the issue of diversity in general, because it doesn't seem like any progress is being made.
There is a lot of prejudice in the world, and it can be overt as in the case of someone specifically ignoring resumes from people not matching their sex or race. And it can be subversive, such as people subconsciously paying more attention to people more like themselves than people less like themselves.
I personally believe it's this latter form that is the reason that lack of diversity continues to be an issue. There is not a single aspect of our American culture in which we do not compartmentalize people. We still have sitcoms built on the tropes of housework-inept dads and shopaholic moms. We still have separate boys' and girls' happy meal toys. And because of that, I don't think it's surprising that tackling diversity in one of the leaf-node areas has largely failed.
Here is a video of Rackspace S.F. showing their support: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08Kv1Q2noU4
The beauty in Black Girls Code is who it chooses to focus on (call it niche market) - Americans who historically have been downtrodden by lack of humanity attention especially in software arena.
The "digital divide" is factual and real. Why its important to address can only be understood by those who have insight or live it.
But the name does bother me a bit, too. Not because 'racism!', but because while it accomplishes the goal of making it clear that this is a safe space for black girls, it raises the question "am I welcome here?" for anyone who isn't black. And a handful of my students aren't black (they're Hispanic) - afaik, they are welcome there too - from the website it looks like Black Girls Code is looking to provide opportunities for all girls of color - but as a teacher, I'd like to be able to just say to my class, "hey, you should all check out this awesome event/opportunity" without it turning into a discussion about race. Plus, I have no idea whether I, as a white woman, would be welcome there as a volunteer? I'm used to being the only white person in a classroom full of students of color - that's not something that's ever been an issue at school - but at a place called Black Girls Code, I'd have to wonder whether my help might not be wanted.
My understanding is that this program should be seen in the context of a political movement that sees this under-representation as an example of systematic oppression by a society that privileges White males. This oppression comes in the form of discrimination in employment, unequal access to education, and stereotypes that guide White males towards higher paid careers. The movement sees eliminating this oppression as a very high priority.
There are two points where I disagree with this movement. First, there may be explanations of this underrepresentation that are unrelated to oppression. These include lack of interest in programming (due to cultural differences in values), cultural differences in how education is valued, and genetic differences in personality and intelligence.
Second, I think that it is natural and inevitable that the majority culture be dominant, and this has social and economic implications. For example, Israel is fundamentally a Jewish nation, and this implies that Jewish values, culture etc. are dominant in that society. While many Israelis explain economic and social inequality in Israel as a result of the backwardness of Muslims, I think the truth is that really this is just another instance of the inevitable trend in societies. So I would like to curb the worst excesses of inequality that result from different races/cultures living together but I do not see inequality as a something terrible that must be eliminated entirely.
I guess this is a lot of stuffy white dude HNers' first interaction with a little thing called identity politics. Surely no white bystander questioned why the Black Panthers weren't called the People Panthers (and they did provide a plethora of community services, they weren't just a militia group[0]); we're at a time where, after black radical politics was systematically destroyed by the US government and police , white-people-in-general sort of exude this attitude of "you seem to have won [read: lost], stop rioting [i.e. Trayvon] and trying to organize around identity because we live in a post-racial society now and any mention of race, or exclusion of whiteness, is Racism."
But actually: “Just as the capitalist system is not a capitalist plot, so racial oppression is not the work of “racists.” It is maintained by the principal institutions of society, including the schools (which define “excellence”), the labor market (which defines “employment”), the legal system (which defines “crime”), the welfare system (which defines “poverty”), the medical industry (which defines “health”), and the family (which defines “kinship”). Many of these institutions are administered by people who would be offended if accused of complicity with racial oppression.” (that's Noel Ignatiev).
So, the ultimate solution for those who recognize race as a force of institutional violence and marginalization (rather than an outdated idea, because hey explicitly racist speech and laws are impolite now!) would be to dismantle those exact systems and rebuild without any idea of whiteness at all -- "white skin would have as little social importance as big feet." But if you try to do that, at best you're lonely, and at worst you're killed (Obama can assassinate terrorists on US soil, remember).
So Black Girls Code is doing what can be done right now to help a severely marginalized, invisible group (you have to remember the experience of young girls in the US [1][2][3]) get into a field that is basically guaranteed employment if they develop interest and go with it long enough.
If you're white, especially a white guy, no one cares about your Very Reasonable And Logical opinion or how this makes you Very Uncomfortable on the Internet.
[0] http://www.stanford.edu/group/blackpanthers/programs.shtml
[1] http://reelgirl.com/2013/11/im-not-a-pilot-im-a-pilots-wife-...
[2] http://www.metafilter.com/121190/teenage-girls-they-havent-b...
[3] http://sodisarmingdarling.tumblr.com/post/34106027759/what-i...
I'm just trying to understand the racial words connotation in USA, just to not make faux pas in the future.