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0 pointsanoncowherd12y ago0 comments

>> Private property itself can't exist without the use of force and the state. If you abolish the state, you abolish private property.

Really now? If the State ceased to exist tomorrow, do you think you and everyone you know would go on a killing spree, because no one would have "the right to live" anymore?

Without the State, would you and your friends go forcefully take everyone else's (non-)property because property rights would cease to exist? Or would everyone perhaps willingly part with all their belongings because they believed their property rights had vanished with the State?

Would you and your friends go rape all the women you could get your hands on, purely because without the State, people would no longer have the right to control their own bodies?

.. See what I'm getting at here? Perhaps you'd like to reconsider who's got it completely backwards?

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10 comments · 3 top-level

jahaja12y ago· 4 in thread

You're confusing and wildy mixing basic human morality with politically/economically motivated laws.

anoncowherdOP12y ago

And he wasn't? :p

To be more accurate, I'm simply pointing out that we all have the exact same rights regardless of what a government does/says, or whether one even exists at all.

Our rights manifest themselves in the way people naturally behave.

leot12y ago

"... the way people naturally behave."

How is it that people "naturally" behave, exactly? Keep in mind that the way we behave in civilized society is a product of having been raised in civilized society. We have internalized social norms that have been codified into laws, and behave accordingly.

If you look at history, or at any place where the consequences of behavior are removed (e.g. the behavior of people to whom laws don't typically apply), you will find that for the most part, people often behave extremely poorly to each other. Indeed, you'll find that game theory and selfishness best predicts how people treat each other. Law of the jungle, and all that.

ameister1412y ago

Technically, we give up some of our rights to the state; the right to enter into a state of war, for example. There are notable exceptions to this but it's really dependent on community norms in those cases.

1 more reply

jahaja12y ago

Is your point that private-property is in line with how people naturally behave?

I'm not really sure what is meant by rights. It's surely so subjective that it loses it's purpose.

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hackinthebochs12y ago· 2 in thread

Of course not many people will go on a rampage. But the right to life is an entirely different beast than the right to property. It seems obvious to me that private property (the "right" to sole use of property) exists merely by decree of laws and without it, it simply doesn't exist. In the natural state one can only own what they can successfully defend. The concept of private property outsources that defense to the state and thus one ends up capable of accumulating far more property than one could defend in the natural state.

>Without the State, would you and your friends go forcefully take everyone else's (non-)property because property rights would cease to exist

No, but in a scenario where a bank was attempting to evict me from my home and I had nowhere else to go, I would defend my claim to said property.

anoncowherdOP12y ago

>> But the right to life is an entirely different beast than the right to property. It seems obvious to me that private property (the "right" to sole use of property) exists merely by decree of laws and without it, it simply doesn't exist

Do you need a law to tell you you're allowed to defend yourself if someone attacks you? .. Do you not have that "right" by virtue of being a human being?

Are you only allowed to defend your property if there's a government that says you have property rights?

>> in a scenario where a bank was attempting to evict me from my home and I had nowhere else to go, I would defend my claim to said property

Presumably, you'd have voluntarily signed a contract with the bank, and voluntary assumed the risks involved in it, yes? If your contract with the bank says they get your home if you can't pay back your loan, then it's no longer your property after the clause has been triggered.

If you did forcefully defend "your claim to said property" even when it's no longer your property, that would be a job for some kind of "dispute resolution organization".

hackinthebochs12y ago

The talk of 'rights' are muddying the issue. A 'right' necessarily entails responsibilities onto other entities. These responsibilities must be agreed upon beforehand for a 'right' to be said to exist. I know, it is common for discussions of natural rights as in collective responsibility that exists outside of any agreed upon framework. But careful examination of such a claim reveals it to be impotent. I have no reason to acknowledge your right to the sole use of 1M acres of land unless there was some mutually agreed upon framework beforehand. Once we reach the level of mutual agreement (and some enforcement clause) we have just invented government.

The only 'natural right' I agree with is the right to life and non-interference. Everything else requires an agreed upon framework and thus are purely by decree.

dragonwriter12y ago· 1 in thread

> If the State ceased to exist tomorrow, do you think you and everyone you know would go on a killing spree, because no one would have "the right to live" anymore?

You not having a right to something doesn't mean I don't have better uses for my time and effort than taking it from you.

anoncowherdOP12y ago

Government not existing wouldn't mean you don't have rights.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

0 comments

10 comments · 3 top-level

jahaja12y ago· 4 in thread

You're confusing and wildy mixing basic human morality with politically/economically motivated laws.

anoncowherdOP12y ago

And he wasn't? :p

To be more accurate, I'm simply pointing out that we all have the exact same rights regardless of what a government does/says, or whether one even exists at all.

Our rights manifest themselves in the way people naturally behave.

leot12y ago

"... the way people naturally behave."

ameister1412y ago

1 more reply

jahaja12y ago

Is your point that private-property is in line with how people naturally behave?

I'm not really sure what is meant by rights. It's surely so subjective that it loses it's purpose.

1 more reply

hackinthebochs12y ago· 2 in thread

>Without the State, would you and your friends go forcefully take everyone else's (non-)property because property rights would cease to exist

No, but in a scenario where a bank was attempting to evict me from my home and I had nowhere else to go, I would defend my claim to said property.

anoncowherdOP12y ago

Do you need a law to tell you you're allowed to defend yourself if someone attacks you? .. Do you not have that "right" by virtue of being a human being?

Are you only allowed to defend your property if there's a government that says you have property rights?

>> in a scenario where a bank was attempting to evict me from my home and I had nowhere else to go, I would defend my claim to said property

If you did forcefully defend "your claim to said property" even when it's no longer your property, that would be a job for some kind of "dispute resolution organization".

hackinthebochs12y ago

The only 'natural right' I agree with is the right to life and non-interference. Everything else requires an agreed upon framework and thus are purely by decree.

dragonwriter12y ago· 1 in thread

> If the State ceased to exist tomorrow, do you think you and everyone you know would go on a killing spree, because no one would have "the right to live" anymore?

You not having a right to something doesn't mean I don't have better uses for my time and effort than taking it from you.

anoncowherdOP12y ago

Government not existing wouldn't mean you don't have rights.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse