I realize this appears OT, but I don't think I'm the only one on HN with this problem, and we can just think of it as 'hacking social interactions' instead.
Here's the problem -- I've broken through the fear (of rejection) of talking to random, attractive girls. However, I have problem maintaining the smalltalk (i.e. conversation generally dies after 2-3 minutes).
Here's a typical scenario: () I find some reason to talk about them -- if waiting @ bus stop (do you know when the next bus comes along?); if waiting in life for smoothie (those are nice ear rings ...); etc ... () then, conversation starts dying; [btw, I'm on a college campus]; i.e. we can chat a bit a bout their major / field of study, etc ... but that's about it
The goal here isn't the pickup society's goal of: hey, go into a random bar, get laid; it's just figuring out how to meet new people + have interesting conversations without those .. ehh .. awkward 10 second silences that kill everything.
Suggestions? (help me debug my life, lol)
Cheers!
As for your actual question, sometimes the conversation dies because the other person wants it to, and you'd seem pushy if you tried to force it to continue. But in borderline cases I recommend asking the other person about their feelings about relevant things.
I was a peer conselor in college. They taught us something called Rogerian Therapy, which consists of adding as little as possible of your own spin to the conversation, just asking questions, particularly about how the other person feels. You can't be too obvious, or it gets annoying. But if you're subtle about it, people just open up.
"The only thing a true introvert dislikes more than talking about himself is repeating himself," as an article in The Atlantic once said. So be careful about using this Rogerian Therapy on shy people, and please don't use it on me.
That way, you show that you are interested in the conversation and the other person. And often with these open-ended questions, people ask them because they have a good answer. (I know it seems narcissistic, but asking yourself "what question would I like asked of me" can be a good way to come up with questions.)
You just helped me have an epiphany about my girlfriend.
Having said that, I have happily chatted with random strangers before, both receiving questions and initiating them. The difference is usually in how much the person who is asking the question is genuinely listening. Asking questions for the sake of making noise irritates me. Asking questions because you are really are curious works a lot better. When you are curious, you don't come from the position of "I know everything" or, "You should talk to me because I am awesome" or "You shouldn't talk to me because I am a loser."
As for awkward silences themselves, I think it is better to practice being comfortable with them so that the silence feels natural instead of being awkward. You're rarely going to be somewhere completely silent and most people generally have a running commentary running in the back of their heads. Awkward silences feel awkward due to self-doubt and anxiety. When you shed the anxiety, interacting with people feels more natural; distracting or forcing yourself with smalltalk doesn't really get rid of the anxiety. Being genuinely curious ... like exploratory programming ... tends to shed off the anxiety.
I think the key is realizing that you will probably only click with a small number of people. In my case, I click amazingly well with highly educated, ambitious, often nerdy people, and horribly with people who are really into sports or drinking.
So just striking up a random conversation is unlikely ever to be particularly interesting for me. As a result, I get bored and probably come across as quite boring.
So my recommended approach is to amplify your quirky, unique aspects. These may confuse or offend most people, but once in a while you'll run into someone who gets you. Then just go with the flow.
If you really want to get good with normal people, just get a job as a waiter or bartender.
I recommend lines like "wanna go on a treasure hunt? I'm looking for bits of radioactive ore" or "i'm looking for a soul mate and i am feeling this weird connection with you".
Definitely stay away from petty compliments about earrings, etc. Those are creepy and will turn most girls off. And unless you're a jeweler there isn't really very far you are going to be able to take the conversation, even if she loves talking about earrings.
Bottom line: Maybe 1% of people will look at you and get a good, happy feeling. Half of them will be left after you say something. So don't worry about the 99.5% of people who will be difficult to engage with. Focus on putting yourself out there and the 0.5% will be magnetically drawn to you and your best characteristics.
Seriously, I think this is horrible advise. You can certainly surround yourself with people just like you, or you can challenge yourself and meet a whole slew of interesting people. Some of my best friends are about as polar opposite as it gets. Some even like sports!
As for the lines:
"wanna go on a treasure hunt? I'm looking for bits of radioactive ore"
This WILL NOT get you a girlfriend.
"i'm looking for a soul mate and i am feeling this weird connection with you"
This WILL. Three months later she'll kill your cat and you'll be seeking a restraining order.
My advice - be yourself, add confidence and stop worrying about how it's going to turn out.
One day you might even run into someone that is both highly educated and like sports!
The poster's question was about initiating smalltalk. Why waste time with smalltalk when there are big, fun things to talk about? I used to waste time with smalltalk but then one day it dawned on me that it's a total waste of time -- I typically forget the name of the other person immediately when all I've done is exchange smalltalk which creates its own problems.
I'm not a professional diplomat and I'm not interviewing for a job with you, so if all you can talk about is smalltalk, then I'd rather just be alone. If you're afraid to talk about anything controversial, or can't handle it if I disagree with you, then I don't really respect you.
Sure it's fun now and then to try to click with someone who is totally different (someone who holds traditional values, more average in aspirations and interests), but the most I've ever gotten out of it is a vague sense of flattery if the person is physically attractive, and that's a terrible reason to attempt to repeat the experiment.
Being alone is OK. Cows wander in herds, and the human tug to be around people is a lower instinct. Sure it's fun sometimes, and yes it can even be fun to cheer in unison after someone hits a home run on TV, etc., but it's all an attempt to trick yourself into feeling an artificial sense of belonging with strangers.
If you want a s/o with low self esteem, then make a lot of money and try to act normal. She'll find you.
If you want a s/o who is a unique person with a life, just be yourself (even if you're a geek) and don't try to conform to perceived norms. You probably perceive the norms slightly incorrectly in the first place (or else you wouldn't be a geek) and you're likely to overthink them.
Most importantly, don't try to "find" someone. Just be happy being alone and you'll attract similarly independent people.
In the world of XKCD, this seems like exactly the thing that will get you a girlfriend. One like this:
"Definitely stay away from petty compliments about earrings"
Women love small compliments...
The key is to be genuine about it. Do not just pick a random article of clothing and compliment it. Only mention things that truly strike you as unique and beautiful.
But admittedly it isn't the best way to start small talk with a stranger.
The conversation from there on will be colored with the idea that you are hitting on her.
But she won't find it creepy either, if done correctly.
It is, in fact, manipulative -- the compliment was chosen as a way to get the person to engage in a conversation, and the assumption was made that the woman is vain enough to take the bait. I'd say it's doubly insulting more often than it's sincerely flattering.
There are occasionally exceptions when compliments are sincerely flattering to the recipient, but those are not usually times when the compliment is being used as the first step in a guy trying to get laid :) If they work, he'd already won her over in spite of the comment, not because of it.
natural response > programmed response :)
You may also want to consider the context for the conversations when trying to determine the reason that they die out. There was an article posted here some time back on the subject of "acceptable settings for flirting", which wasn't all that informative, but did hammer on one key point: people's degree of receptiveness to conversation with strangers depends largely on context. I.e., someone sitting by him or herself in a bar or coffee shop may be a bit more open to chit-chat than they would be when sitting at a bus stop, or having lunch in a cafeteria.
Basically, you should rely on favorable settings (parties, departmental mixers, sporting events) and implied social ties (academic cohort, shared professional interest, friends in common) to get your foot in the door, then try out your best lines, rather than expecting your wit alone to forge a new relationship.
Let it die. It is the holding on to it after it is dead is what makes it awkward. It is easier to approach them a second time if it dies cleanly the first time.
(2) Think of the conversation as an exchange of information: you're telling each other things about yourselves. If you just ask questions and don't volunteer anything about yourself, you seem creepy; if you only talk about yourself, you seem like an egotist. If in doubt, try to get her talking about herself more than you're talking about yourself, but not by too much.
(3) Don't try to show off your knowledge. It's good to be insightful or witty, and it's fine to introduce a relevant fact if it moves the conversation along. But in a casual conversation, people are not looking to be impressed by your knowledge of e.g. their major or yours.
(4) If the conversation stalls out, ask a very general question: something like "Are you having a good day?" or "Looking forward to the weekend?" or "How are your classes going?" This makes it easy for them to find a subject they're comfortable discussing. If someone replies to a question like this in a closed-off way, like "Yup" or "Fine," they're signalling that they don't want to continue the conversation. You can smile and say "Cool" and let it drop without any embarrassment. Not everyone likes talking to strangers, and everyone is sometimes in the mood to be alone with their thoughts.
The solution to your problem is so simple it's actually rather elegant: Just care about the other person. If you genuinely care, you'll have no problem finding things to talk about. You'll be asking questions, not because you're following a flowchart or playing a game, but because you really want to know. Fortunately, it's also the only way that works anyway; if you don't care, you'll be clocked and look like a fool.
OTOH, if you don't care about the other person, move on and save both of you the trouble.
Getting to know a person isn't a technical skill that you master and practice at will. (Granted, parts of the process, like choosing interesting topics and getting a feel for what the other person wants to talk about is sort of a skill gained by practice).
Really getting to know a person requires you to actually care what the other person thinks. Almost all else will follow.
Someone here mentioned that they dislike smalltalk so much that they forget the other person's name right after the smalltalk ends. That's just one example of many of what happens if you contrive to talk to someone without actually caring about them.
I long ago discovered that no one really likes small talk. It's the prelude to a real conversation; that's the only reason people engage in it (or to signal to each other's monkey brains that one is not a threat).
The solution? Ramp it up into a real conversation. Talk about economics, politics, religion, and Emacs vs. Vim. Out of the blue, whatever.
On a side note, who do you think the women will remember more: the guy who they got into an conversation with about Frederic Bastiat, or the 100th guy to ask them about the weather?
I honestly do think that the content of the conversation doesn't make up 100% of the reason why a girl/friend/colleague remembers you. A lot of it is your mannerisms, look, demeanor, friendliness, etc. A real conversation is great, but it's a very risky bet trying to dive straight in to controversial topics.
The reason smalltalk exists is to get a feel for what topics one can actually discuss. It's all part of the dance.
Of course, at a bus stop, one does not know whether or not the other people there are familiar with Bastiat. Which is why college is such a great place to meet people--if you meet people in your classes you can discuss the subject.
Generally speaking these openers are not very good because after you talk about the situation the conversation is dead. After you ask her when the next bus comes along what could you possibly follow-up with? How many people do you think will be on the bus? Do you think it will be a bumpy ride?
So your goal is to move as quickly as possible from the situational opener into something deeper and more interesting. Find out something about where she is going and try to build off of that into a much more substantial topic.
It's best if you talk about things that are fun such as relationships or social problems. Always avoid the following topics though:
religion politics abortion affirmative action
These topics will destroy you.
Good luck. And once again, try to transition away from the situational opener as soon as possible!
If someone (guy or girl) asks what you're doing later tonight and the only answer you have is "Going to work on some code" then you are a boring person.
If you have no options in your lifestyle besides go home and sit at a computer you aren't going to be able to make smalltalk.
If you aren't going out this Thursday night to see a local band, or head to the park for some frisbee or soccer/football or volunteering to read children's books to kids at the library or really anything outside of your house what exactly do you think you're going to talk to these people about? The weather? Get some hobbies that you can share with other people. And pairs-programming does not count.
And a major point about majors. No one gives a flying fuck. Third month into freshman year every single person has been chatted up with "What's your major? oh that's cool, I'm a so-and-so". That's basically staple conversation to the point where you replay the conversation from memory rather than interacting with the person talking to you.
People who are "good" at smalltalk aren't making shit up on the spot. They go out and do things that they can talk about. Things other people do in a social setting. If you can only define yourself as a programmer you are a boring person.
ask open-ended questions, and latch onto any information that comes back to you in order to ask more open-ended questions.
its not exactly small-talk, but people tend to like to talk about themselves and will generally respond reasonably to doing so.
If these are a little difficult practice on people who dont count. By that I mean people who you dont care if you never see again. The elderly are often a bit lonely and love to chat. Or a girl you would never ask out. (You could be wrong about that.)
Still "with" her 3 years later. And we still row when I forget and say jesus :P
Controversy tends to work quite well because it gets someones attention then they conciously consider talking to you - casual talk or passing chat doesnt really engage anyone and they will pass you over w/o a thought (that is the awkward pause).
Dont say anything hurtful or rude obviously, just outrageous (preferably relating to an inanimate "thing" and definitely no one in the room in case you pick a friend)
Once you have someones attention you can have a real conversation (like pookleblinky suggested elsewhere). "Hi my name is...", "whats yours", "Whats do you do" is fine for small talk. As pookle also mentioned it lets you establish a non-threatening relationship... then pick a good topic to discuss, that can be hard but let it come naturally.
I think your real problem is that your thinking about it too much (I used to do the same). Just care less about what they might be thinking of you and talk as if you've known them for years. If they dont like you then being careful and considerate etc. wont help much anyway - their loss.
If you're trying to approach someone who's not obviously part of the hip crowd, and from what you observe, they seem nice, approach them. You'll come to realize that people are as nervous and shy to talk to others as you are, so you're on the same level as most people.
Of course you'd figure he has his patter down too a tee and knows just what to say: but not at all - he was just loud and thick (partly put on, partly genuine) and controversial... people loved it in the short term but they wouldnt hang for more than 20mins or so (unless they wanted a bit of him). I cant even remember what he was saying (mostly along the lines of "what do you do" closely followed by "can I feel your tits" or something...)
tar xzvf smalltalk-3.1.tar.gz
cd smalltalk-3.1
./configure
make
How to make a Smalltalk VM.
1) Implement a loop containing a 256 case case-statement. Get ahold of documentation of the Smalltalk bytecodes, then start implmenting each one.
2) Code up method loookup. (Really, you've done this if you've done step 1, but it deserves mention.)
3) Add code for loading and saving an image.
4) Add a library for Garbage Collection: http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Hans_Boehm/gc/
Done! You don't need a Smalltalk compiler in your VM. It's all Smalltalk objects in the image!
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=619028
with virtually the same ranking. I guess it's very subjective what constitutes as "contributing to the discussion" or not.
People in groups may feel warm&fuzzy&nice but until we can get the same kind of bandwidth between our respective heads as we can inside our heads all group consciousness will remain anathema for excellence.
For intelligence I go to be by myself or seek out the company of other specialists.
I highly recommend it. It may change your social life forever.
It's more about conversation than pickup. Peruse the forums. It's not about technique, it's more about intent. It's not about seeking approval, it's about giving approval.
I'm not going to rehash what their philosophy and conversational techniques are but if you were to search my previous comments on mingling and small talk - much of it is sourced from them.
1. If you're going to make conversation with someone, commit to doing it. i.e. don't mumble or make a half peep attempt at saying hi. Look at them, pause, smile, and say hello or something exciting like that.
2. If you want conversation to keep going... ask open ended questions. These are questions that can't be answered with just a yes or no. When you ask such a question be sure to answer it yourself. "I hope to take over the world one day. What are your dreams?"
3. Talk in terms of feelings. "I feel it is a nice day today, I love the smell of freshly cut grass" not "It is 80F this is the exact temperature I'm calibrated to like".
That should put you on the path. Good luck.
The trick with this is to not come off like you're writing a novel. The line between interested and creepy is pretty fine. The best advice I can give you here would be to avoid getting /too/ personal. Keep it general.
A lot of attractive girls are boring because the guys always make the conversation, if you let her take the lead you will bore her by default. Try mentioning something she might be interested in and see if she latches on: then you can take the lead and make yourself interesting.
If you are looking to get married and you need help meeting someone then google 'Doc Love' and read his free stuff or listen to his internet radio show. I was referred to a counselor for this sort of thing by a friend, the counselor was teaching the same methods of recognizing what is being communicated (by her and by me)
I tend not to notice non-verbal behavior or know what message I'm sending except in formal situations. At the time I wasn't ready for the information so it was frustrating. Later through I was and it has helped.
If you have problems with recognizing non-verbal behavior look into the work of Paul Ekman; again very helpful.
Switch between those and open-ended questions and you should be ok. About 1/3 ppl who I chat w like that chat back. 1/3 you could force it (and sometimes forcing it is worth it, since this is how you build up the game) and 1/3 are plain not down, but ignore those fools or switch to a more advanced game.
Don't think about trying to get a "connection" with the person, it's just conversation, not an interview.
The important thing to remember is there is no reason to be embarrassed: this person has nothing against you, she just doesn't feel like talking to you. Maybe she would at some other time, maybe never. Either way, It's Not A Big Deal, just talk to the next girl you meet instead. After a while it gets easier and you don't even think about it.
eg: You: "Crazy rain eh?" Girl: "Yeah." You: "I love the rain, it reminds me of Rangoon." Girl: "You've been to Rangoon?" You: "No but it is the best city name in the world." Girl: "I've always been partial to Riyad"
If rain reminds you of an episode of star trek or of an algorithm, say so. You'd amazed how far you can get if you say something w/ total confidence no matter how absurd. If the person blows you off, it's all good. 99% of people aren't going to be your friends.
Don't be boring and don't be afraid. The more you do it the easier it gets. You loose absolutely nothing by trying.
/sad truth
I'd be interested in finding a developer and an English major to turn this into something real. I think this app has potential.
Suppose you are standing in line for a drink, and some HN person is in front of you. How to make small talk? Ask them, "how to make small talk," and you'll make small talk in no time.
Now, as a counter-balance, in addition to lessening my anxiety, the St. John's Wort also seems to lessen my "spark" somewhat, depending on dose. I countered this somewhat by adjusting the dose, e.g. at times taking 150 mg as opposed to the "standard" 300 mg.
It's not a dramatic effect, and people still consider me plenty witty (when I'm in good form); but I do sometimes notice, particularly after it wears off, that I'm "seeing further/deeper".
The thing about St. John's Wort is that it is over the counter. It's also considered to be generally fairly benign, although you do need to be aware of potentially adverse effects on some other medication regimens. There are others to be aware of, but as an example, if you are female you should be aware that St. John's Wort lessens the effectiveness of oral contraceptives.
St. John's Wort is also noted for increasing photosensitivity in some people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Johns_Wort#Adverse_effects_a...
For me, in part perhaps the St. John's Wort helps me to let go of my own concerns and to focus more on the immediate moment and what interests the other person. This immediacy eliminates much of the "hesitation" that quickly grows in awkwardness to the point where the interaction is killed.
As I've gotten older and, frankly, my hormones balance has correspondingly changed, I've found it easier to achieve this state without e.g. St. John's Wort (or alcohol, or whatever else might be used). Also, being involved in an activity that is very engaging and immediate can also on its own bypass / short-circuit / obviate this "hesitation".
So, I think there are ways to get towards what you describe without popping a pill. Perhaps meditation might be a component, over the longer term. Still, experiencing that ease is of itself interesting and informative, and so I share my experience for any benefit or further discussion it may promote.
I wish you well, and I wish you particularly the social grace you seek: As one gets older, it does become apparent how "short" our time is, and how important social life is to one's quality of life. You are right to want to improve your own.
Regards
P.S. If you do look into St. John's Wort, be sure to find a product that is standardized not only against hypericin but also against hyperforin. I've found that only those products that ensure the latter have the best efficacy for me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Johns_Wort#Chemical_composit...
Unfortunately, a rather serious injury from which I never fully recovered, eliminated my ability to continue engaging in that or similar exercise. But I would definitely look at personal fitness as a course of action. The trick is that it needs to be something you really enjoy and not just a chore. For me, that was cycling. I'd ride for 2 or 3 hours, get home, and be ready to do it all over again -- I liked it that much.
Following up on my "meditation" comment. For me, the closest I got to meditation was perhaps my state of mind while cycling. I found it much easier to reach such a state while engaged in the activity of cycling. I'm not sure meditation need mean sitting in repose. And the cycling definitely encouraged attention to breath and the like. It encouraged an active, engaged attention to my entire body; simultaneously, the ability to "be in the moment" for extended periods of time.
