That was one of the biggest surprises for me. I never realized the degree to which not being able to afford certain things was what was making me want them. That childhood excitement of saving up your money to buy some coveted thing is completely gone. And without it you find you covet the thing far less. When you realize you can bring it home from the store whenever you want, you're often surprised to find yourself thinking "let them keep it there for now."
Curiously, this affects people in different ways. When the excitement of e.g. buying a fancy car is diminished by 10x, some people respond by buying 10 fancy cars, and others just lose interest. I turned out to be in the latter group, and judging from what I've seen in SV, a lot of HN readers probably also would be.
It's slightly sad, in the way that losing one's appetite or sexual desire might be. On the other hand, you're arguably less of a slave to people marketing luxuries, and the other things you long for might be more worth longing for.
For example, when you’re a poor student, you undoubtedly covet the nice gear in whatever field you’re into. If you’re into photography, you want that new camera or lens. If you’re into computer games, you want the newest rig. If you’re into cooking, you want some Le Creuset cast iron or some copper pots. But interestingly, once you start making even semi-decent money (say, $75,000) you could easily afford these things. And yet, most people no longer covet them when they reach that level. They may make a few initial purchases, but they soon realize that, because they can buy a $2,000 lens or a $500 french oven without much thought or planning, the shine is gone. Instead, they shift their sights to the $200,000 Porsche or the $2,000,000 home.
There’s no reason this doesn’t apply at $20,000,000 just as it does at $75,000. There’s always bigger, better, and more to covet.
I don't find that I want more expensive things, instead I just lost interest in most material objects. Being able to lend/give (I never expected the loan would be repaid) a friend of a friend $3,000 to avoid foreclosure gave me infinitely more satisfaction than anything I could have spent that money on.
Even now, years later, it still amazes me that I simply don't want stuff I don't need. Well, for the most part, anyway :-)
Just buying material goods and status symbols is never going to make you happy. Doing cool shit on the down-low is a much better goal IMHO.
This is a truckload of money in Brazil, it is harder to get more money than that, I was a "Solutions Architect" and R&D head of a medium mobile solutions company.
To me, I was bloody rich, I mean, I never had this kind of money before, my whole extended family were envious and made lots of really mean jokes (and people made lots of "jokes" asking things, obviously expecting that maybe you will buy it for them).
I noticed then that many things I wanted, I decided to buy them later, for example I still don't own a single game console, because I thought: "Aaah, I will only buy PS3, and I will do it when Final Fantasy Versus get released".
The most expensive thing I bought, were my glasses, because since I need them every day, it made sense to expend some more money seeking quality (I hired a good custom lensmaker and all).
In fact, I did not knew what to do with my money, so I ended throwing good part of it at bitcoins (and losing it doing crazy leveraged trading).
It was a time that I worked because I liked the job (by the way: when I sent the resume, I asked for 18k, I got 30k because THEY offered it, it was not me that asked!)
You should consider putting money in small businesses and real estate, I know quite a few people who started out making really low US wages that built up a huge amount of money over 10 or so years of sending money back to Brazil to invest. The people I know who have done this invested in really simple businesses like sapateiros, esteticistas (shoemakers, beauticians), etc. Even though it is not a fun as bitcoin, probably worth you looking into.
EDIT: I want to be able to afford to volunteer more of my time without taking time away from my family too.
There is a third way to deal with the loss of excitement of buying -- not just buying 10x, or buying nothing, but engaging in the thrill of the hunt. Instead of expensive off-the-shelf commodities, rarer things. They don't have to be expensive.
Ex: I spent 6 months off and on looking for the right medicine cabinet for the bathroom in our "new" 265-year-old house. The new cabinets I saw at all the home stores looked cheaply made, or too cold, or too glam. I ended up finding a barber's cabinet with an extending mirror-door… super cool, not really unique but certainly not something you'll find in anyone else's house, from probably around 1910, just like the other piece of furniture we put in the bathroom (a dental cabinet made of solid quarter-sawn tiger oak).
It wasn't that expensive as far as medicine cabinets go ($300 — you could easily spend that at Home Depot on some poorly joined piece of crap from Indonesia). But it was an extremely satisfying way to spend not a lot of money. It's just perfect for the room, for the house, and it really did take a lot of looking and digging and strategizing to get it. It makes me happy every time I look at it.
That's the joy of collecting. You don't have to spend a lot to get the joy, either. I love old cameras ($20-50/ea) and West German art vases ($10-100/ea) and paintings by a certain pair of California impressionists ($80-300/ea). It's fun to be always on the lookout. And as far as thrills go, it's a lot cheaper than 5-star restaurants, and the result (ownership) and the experience (the hunt!) lasts a lot longer. There aren't a lot of meals that you can enjoy every time you sit in a certain room, but that's how often I enjoy a small painting I won in an eBay auction.
Teach yourself to enjoy the hunt and enjoy deal-making and you can get a lot more out of your money at any income level middle-class or above.
EDIT: It also gives you room to overspend for things that are "unreasonable." For example, I want some cabinets made for my living room. I don't like the off-the-shelf options. So instead I am taking woodworking classes and hiring one of the teachers to help me plan and build the cabinets at $60/hr. This will end up costing 2-3x what a cabinet would cost at Crate & Barrel, and take a lot longer than if I simply hired a professional (esp. considering my time), but I will get exactly what I want and have the pride of having made it (with help). The whole experience & result will be a lot longer, more joyful and challenging than outright buying what I can afford. Still, spending $2000 to $3000 on a built-in wall unit isn't even remotely in the same category as collecting cars.
This is a common mistake, esp among the newly wealthy who are young: The last thing you want is for anyone to know that you are wealthy.
There are many ways to make sure people stay ignorant of your wealth. For the people (and dates) that don't know your wealth, then you sure as hell don't educate them by words or bling. For people that know you had an exit, they never saw the documents and don't know what your number was. And if they probe, then "the investors got most of it, and uncle sam took half of the rest. At least I made a profit."
And the truth is: Yes, having the money is nicer than not having it, but it really doesn't make your life worth living or give it meaning. That requires a great deal more effort.
Edit: I think Prawks should be top HN comment. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5182922
Best way to save your money and not go crazy with it? Take responsibility for something. Have something to keep you occupied and engaged every day. Something that depends on your time, care, and attention. That something could be a job you find meaningful and challenging. It could be a child and a family. It could be a big project that you now have the ability to pursue, having come into financial freedom. The point is: have something to focus on other than material.
(Hell, this might even be another company, in which case, even more money flows in. Not the worst problem to have).
We're all familiar with the old saying "A fool and his money are soon parted." Well, in the case of the very smart who happen to come into money, I'd warn "A bored or unhappy person and his money are soon parted."
Money can indeed be a ticket to freedom. But too many people conflate "freedom" with "freedom from responsibility." That line of thinking is dangerous. It leads to boredom and idleness at best, and recklessness at worst.
In general however, people who win lotteries tend to go back to their norm of happiness within a year. By the time you are 18 you are either a happy person or not. Sorry.
I knew a family where one member made wise investments and eventually became wealthy (but didn't announce it). These were older people, close to retirement. But once the sibling sought to give some of his wealth to siblings as a nice gesture, the other siblings wanted to gang tackle him for more. Now that he was wealthy, how could he be so cheap as to only give them X? They demanded X+Y, or threatened to make his life miserable (they'd come by drunk, repeat expletives, threaten force, say nasty things, etc.) They only turned 'nice' once he relented and gave them what they thought was appropriate.
Anyhow. A man now sees his brothers and sisters in a different light. He probably wishes he'd never become wealthy, in some ways.
That for most people here means probably to work even more, but just coding what they believe is significant, when you feel with the right energy, and not what the current company / job believes it is.
I believe there is a significant amount of people that every day wake up and go make something they believe it is useless, just to pay the bills. Richness can stop this massive personal sacrifice.
Clarification: As you can guess I'm very happy with my current job, the problem is, I wrote useless code for many years when I started to pay my bills as a programmer. Later I created companies and I was able to escape the sadness of writing useless code. However the fear of returning into this condition is always present, especially with a loan that I used to purchase a new house, children, and so forth.
Money offers choices. It allows people to live and work where they want and makes it a helluva lot easier to stand up for yourself or leave your job to find your passion. I currently have none of these allowances.
Even without any it's plain to see how money can make it easier to be happy in life, but at the end of the day happiness is up to yourself. I'm reasonably happy without any money, but I know if I had some, I could probably make myself happier. :p
But I don't want to do it because I want stuff. I don't want a Audi, or a Maserati, or a fancy home, or the newest gadget.
I have a objective, a plan, for me, and for future generations, and I know how much it will cost, and doing it will require me to be rich.
And I know how much problems it will attract, how much relationships it will wreck, and how much danger it will bring to my life.
But I don't want to get rich for pure hedonism, far form that, it is because of my beliefs, I believe some stuff need to be done, and I concluded that few people will do it, meaning that I will have to do it, since I have to do it, I will figure a way to get rich, and do it.
To me, it will be worth, because it will be having the means of pursuing what I believe, but it will also be a sacrifice, it will be the opposite of a life that I had for a long time, it will be the opposite of being laid back, almost lazy, work only for pleasure, and live a peaceful life. It will mean politics, hardwork, backstabbing...
But I believe I have a duty to do, and I must do it, and I will venture doing that, and when I get rich, I know I will have to fight very hard to use the money for what I planned, instead of wasting it all in pleasurable stuff.
That being said, I've recently made the decision to become, if not rich, at least well off enough that I have money to spare. My parents are aging and deeply in debt, my younger sister is sick (as she has been her whole life) and will never be able to support herself or hold down a job to give her health insurance. And I'd like to have kids and give them as many opportunities as I had.
It's not about happiness for me, per se. I've been given certain gifts, and I think I can use them to provide for my people. I think that's my responsibility.
But this is exactly it. If you were dirt poor you couldn't have done these things. Conversely if you were richer you would be able to do less of them. I suppose, anyway.
I just don't see backstabbing as a necessary (or even effective) means to accomplish an end, no matter how noble the end may be.
I mean I will get backstabbed.
When you are rich, or working toward getting rich, people WILL backstab you.
I'm totally tired of seeing people getting rich, so they can humiliate others from the top of their wrongly concepted superiority. They came, see and conquer for the very sake of saying they did. And they don't stop. They suck every working class neck dry so they can feel more powerful in society, like they are super humans for what they've accomplished.
But feeling powerful, in this case, is a social concept. And as a social concept it needs a society to exist. Like sound needs matter. And so, this people only feel this way for wasting thousands of lives, because the lives they waste are feeding their ego! Media is aways talking about this kinds, because its what we all want to hear. We all purse professional success and money to be looked upon, to be served, to have whats exclusive. We feed it.
What's worse of it all is that we teach this behavior to our kids, by giving them fancy stuff. We forge the pointless consumerist concepts of superiority into their heads and towards their very character, as our father did to us. And thats why we just can't be free of the thoughts of having. Because it's printed to our very psychological ids.
I also want to get rich. And I also have a plan for future generations. I want to have the time to create a new concept of education from scratch, based not on competition, individualism and fear like the one we have today, built over a mass production platform, teachers that only teach for a living, ranking grades that only tell that you have better memory, or that you cheat better, that carves into students heads that their dreams are impossible to achieve, that they must work 70 hours a week, obey the rules and be a law abiding mediocre form of life whose only legacy will be their obituary expenses; but based on cooperation and curiosity, printing into the young ones heads better values, like teamwork, self development, sharing, humility, honor.
I want them to know that they can do everything they imagine, I want them to know that nothing is impossible and that they have every requirement to achieve all of their dreams. But they must know also that they must work together and that they must work for , not the self, not society, but for humanity, and that's where they'll find their pleasure to feed the hedonism. I don't want people to keep away from pleasure. I just want to redirect it to something more constructive than consumerism, power, individualism. And if I can teach this to a few ones, they will multiply over generations and gradually take the world.
I may sound religious but i don't consider myself not even agnostic. The only thing I believe is humanity. And for 24 years I've seen it's darkest side ruling over the world. But I know that in every sucked out neck there's hope and good will to change our situation. In every new brain there's another chance to build good character to multiply the idea. I have no kids yet, and I don't know if I want a child of mine living in this horrible world we live in. But if you do, rethink the values you want your child's character to be built upon. He/She will feed the status quo, or help change it.
As long as we, the voiceless millions, compete against each other, we will be weak. Competition divides. Division makes us smaller. We must cooperate. Human cooperation is not linear, it's a geometric progression. Apart we are lots of ones. Together we are millions. Together we can change.
What can you do for your dream before making your first kajillion? You can develop the proper skills, research the problem, form a plan. You can find people who agree with you, raise funds. Start small and switch to it full time when you can.
Waiting to hit a golden figure will really delay the start of your project. Worse, you may find yourself always needing "just a little bit more" before you can cut over and start. If you truely must wait to self-fund this way, keep that target figure in your mind always, and have the guts to jump when you're ready.
Good luck!
When the industrial revolution happened, the necessity for workers, in all levels, including managers, directors, and so on, made necessary for society to invent a reason for people to do those jobs, to change their old ways, then it became honorable to be a self made man, a guy that would use hard work to earn his income, instead of being a noble.
It was that time, that then being a noble became a thing to be derided for, and of course, the behaviour of many nobles did not helped things for them.
But originally what made a noble, "noble", was being to sacrifice himself, and do what needed to be done, without expecting payment, and he could do that because he already had income (usually in the form of some contract with people that farmed his land, be taxing them, or loaning the land to them, or something else).
One of he worst things you can do for your kids is give them a reason not to work.
My project is not get rich and dump money on the kids. Hell no.
Obviously, I expect that two or three generations down, if thinks work well, my family will have kids being born already rich, I hope that those kids won't undo that I will try to do.
It is wrong because hedonism is usually tied to individualism, and a individual pursuit of happiness, that sometimes might work in short term, or for one generation or two, but end always results in problems for the collectivity that make everyone LESS happy.
The current way of life, hoardings things, "stuff", without a purpose or objective, wanting to be in the "haves" just to not be a "have not", agressively wanting more money aiming just to pleasure yourself or be more happy, only results in people, inadvertently or not, taking things from others that needed them.
Many societies with far less money and technology were happier, because what make people happy is a question of how they are spending their time.
If you work 70 hours a week for a very long time, to buy things that make you happy, you are wasting your time, you won't get happy this way, and might make others unhappy, starting with people close to you, like abandoned family or significant other, or children, to people that you hurt without even knowing, when for example in your own pursuit for happiness you do things without noticing how evil they are, like working for a cigarrete factory for example.
The most happy societies were ones that people worked 40 hours a week, period, no more chores, if the men were working 40 hours outside home, women worked 40 inside home, but both worked 40 hours, nothing more, our society people started to take increasingly burdens pursuing more money, and don't noticed that most people now work way more than 40 hours, and have long commuting times, and have few time to do what they enjoy, or to improve themselves and others.
My uncle once told me, that he noticed how pointless it was how much he was working, when he finally could buy a big TV and a PS3 (those are absurdly expensive here in Brazil, and people have much less income too, so they are absolute luxuries) and noticed he did not had time to enjoy it, he bought his dream videogame, and his dream game (Gran Turismo 5), and just could not play it, then he realized, what was the point?
So, it is better not :)
"The hedonic treadmill, also known as hedonic adaptation, is the supposed tendency of humans to quickly return to a relatively stable level of happiness despite major positive or negative events or life changes.[1] According to this theory, as a person makes more money, expectations and desires rise in tandem, which results in no permanent gain in happiness. Brickman and Campbell coined the term in their essay "Hedonic Relativism and Planning the Good Society" (1971).[2] During the late 1990s, the concept was modified by Michael Eysenck, a British psychologist, to become the current "hedonic treadmill theory" which compares the pursuit of happiness to a person on a treadmill, who has to keep working just to stay in the same place."
> And contradicting set point theory, there is apparently no return to homeostasis after sustaining a disability or developing a chronic illness.
I can vouch for that. I was an avid runner, but two years ago I got cartilage damage in both knees that left me unable to run or even walk entirely normal (I'm 22 years old). After surgery this year, I'm doing much better, but I feel like I've lost a part of myself that I won't ever get back short of complete healing... which unless we get some radical new cartilage science, isn't bound to happen anytime soon.
I'm still very happy on a daily basis, just not as much as I used to be.
http://www.hedweb.com/hedab.htm
"I certainly don't regret it.
Wealth removes constraints. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing depends on the extent to which you needed those constraints. If you have a serious alcohol or other drug addiction, wealth could be fatal for you. In general, it makes people more of whatever they already were. If you're an asshole, getting more money will probably make you more of an asshole. However, if you have purpose and meaning in your life that goes beyond chasing the golden carrot, money can give you the freedom to focus on the things that truly matter to you.
One of the biggest dangers of wealth is that it often causes people to cut themselves off from the larger society, either out of fear or the belief that they are somehow better than others. We are all one."
Many many worthy comments in that thread.
Edit: To crusso's point, I didn't realize it requires a login. I guess I finally broke down and got one over there a while ago.
I disagree with this. One thing being rich gives you is the ability to make things happen.
Being a benefactor of a cause or artistic organization or an investor in a startup means that you can help set into motion meaningful projects that you believe in that would not otherwise have been possible. I'm a singer and one group I sing with has a benefactor who has financed all of our recording projects. We put his name in the CD notes and that guy can know that without his support the CD simply could not have happened. I have to believe that's a deeply gratifying feeling.
Money does not have exclusivity on this ability.
I'm a member of the Friends of Northampton Castle[1], a group of people interested in the heritage of my home town.
Time is far far more important than money to groups like this.
We've had an architect put together a 3D reconstruction in his spare time (which I scripted and voiced in my spare time).[2]
We've spoken with the local library to get copies of some photos of the castle to put on our website (gathering local press attention by doing so).
We've lobbied and met with various groups with huge amounts of success. Not because we're well funded but because our members are able and willing to give their time to the project.
I've given my time to blog, tweet and facebook for them, etc etc.
In large part thanks to our activities, the people in charge of redeveloping the site (now a train station) have performed an archaeological exploratory trench - and found castle walls and a saxon brooch.[3]
Don't be tempted to think that you can't make real changes without money.
[1] http://www.northamptoncastle.com I run the website, would be interested in feedback.
[2] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lp6TCRc9KVo
[3] http://www.northamptoncastle.com/posts/castle-station-evalua...
How much would you pay for freedom?
I remember having to make sure we only spent a certain amount on food and clothes and now i dont even need to consider such a thing. Day to day life is better by a country mile knowing i have enough money to pay for general life expenses. I still cant go out an buy a car without thinking about it, but i could buy a TV without thinking about it.
Once you have that level of complacency you start aspiring to other things and its difficult to maintain a level. I like good food and once went to the best restaurant in my city i spent £250 for a meal for 2 and i didnt care about the money, i could do that once every few weeks, but i wouldnt do it more than once/twice every year, because i know it would bring my level of expectancy higher.
I think its important you keep yourself comfortable, but dont allow yourself to get used to the finer things you love, because then you wont love them any more and you'll expect them and they wont be special any more.
I agree with most of your comment, but the last one causes me to ask: If simple repetition is enough to lose love for these "finer" things, then why waste effort on them anymore? Why not spend effort on things that will hold your love more permanently? (or at least with a longer time constant...)
That isnt to say you shouldnt work towards finding longer term things that are less fickle and bring more overall life enjoyment that sticks, but the examples i gave are temporary by nature and my point was that not doing them often makes them special and i personally want to keep that.
I dont know why i would give these things up just because i'd not love them any more if i did them every week. They provide long term happiness because they're rare and i can look forward to them and remember them.
Perhaps the most important aspect of being as rich as a bourgeoisie is that you have a secure existence. You don't have to worry about finding a job, paying for health care, paying child support, paying rent on time so that you don't have to join the masses of homeless people living in the cold, or any of the other things ordinary people have to worry about. Having a secure existence is a major stress reliever and it makes your life better no question.
I want to get rich so I can get away with working with fun, but high risk, projects without having to live like a student. I would like to be able to make indie games for a living, but the risk is too big for me to stake my family on.
It lays out a clever mental model for turning interests into skills into control over your career.
http://www.amazon.com/Good-They-Cant-Ignore-You/dp/145550912...
Money Is Not Wealth
If you want to create wealth, it will help to understand what it is. Wealth is not the same thing as money. [3] Wealth is as old as human history. Far older, in fact; ants have wealth. Money is a comparatively recent invention.
Wealth is the fundamental thing. Wealth is stuff we want: food, clothes, houses, cars, gadgets, travel to interesting places, and so on. You can have wealth without having money. If you had a magic machine that could on command make you a car or cook you dinner or do your laundry, or do anything else you wanted, you wouldn't need money. Whereas if you were in the middle of Antarctica, where there is nothing to buy, it wouldn't matter how much money you had.
Everything is going according to plan. When you see how perfectly all of this lines up with the interests of the plutocrats you just have to wonder to what degree it is conscious collusion. What lies do they tell themselves in the pursuit of economic power and the subsequent subjugation of the population, or have they completely dispensed with even the pretense of plebeian morality?
Everything becomes boring. Hobbies are awesome because you have to anticipate and wait to do them. Imagine doing nothing but your hobbies 14 hours a day. Then when you're bored of all your hobbies you have nothing else to do. So you hit up vegas. That lasts 2-3 years then you call it. Anecdotal? Yes, but I've seen it happen way too often.
Figure out something to do. Just something, start a cheap cafe and hire workers, a manufacturing plant for wallpaper, whatever. Just have something to do thats not all about you so you don't have to keep asking yourself what should I do now? Becuase that question will become a thorn in your side.
Yeah, yeah, you just got this big chunk of change and you want to spend it on Tesla cars and the French Laundry and vacation homes! But when you engage in flagrant consumption people notice and start wanting in on the action.
Figure out what the average amount consumed for someone in the 90th percentile and stick strictly to that budget (and you won't be taking on debt to do it!). Throw any excess money you have around in interesting investments and social ventures. Even if people find out you're loaded, if you're living modestly they'll know not to expect you to act that differently.
Not if you listen to those (many) who consider it anti-social behaviour to hoard money instead of spending it (because spending feeds the economy, pays salaries ...), or even getting interest as a "no-work income".
[I disagree with those people: if your money does not participate in the economy, the relative value of other people's money increases]
"curaqion is a monthly curation of high quality answers from fascinating topics and questions on Quora."
Tldr version: http://tldr.io/tldrs/5113da0cb507aa413100001d/is-getting-ric...
Also, just because you get "rich" doesn't mean anyone else has to know that. It just means you no longer have to worry about money income problems. Please do not underestimate that, as that is HUGE.
I'm just kidding. I'm the same way. What makes me happy is my four cats, making other people happy and having a great idea to work on.
But it's the idea part that can cause me problems. If I have a good idea I'll do nearly anything to make it happen. I'll spend my bill money to make it real. If/when I become money rich (I'm already rich in other ways) I may scale this risky behavior and still find myself in trouble (as I am now).
I sometimes wonder if the reason that I always push things to the limit in an attempt to do as much as possible with my resources is somehow down to years of playing strategy games on computers, where correctly timing several turns of complete poverty results in massive success 50% of the time.
Unfortunately, this behaviour doesn't translate well to a medium in which the "reset" button involves 6 years without access to credit.
Hasn't happened yet. Nearly. But fortunately not yet.
I'm not rich. But I do follow this one principle that I also strongly recommend.
http://www.quora.com/Wealth/Is-getting-rich-worth-it
Top answer summary: Here's my answer: being rich is better than not being rich, but it's not nearly as good as you imagine it is.
There may (MAY) be some Socalization [sic] going on here. I.e. Americans think this is what people do in America, therefore they must be like this everywhere.
Americans might keep expecting you to give them a car as a Christmas present. Europeans would never be so materialistic as to want or expect one. Have at it.
The overall TCO of a nice German car is easily $1m. So most people don't understand that 15m is only 15 cars. And I mean only. And you can't buy anything else on that hypothetical basis.
Is my partner into my or my money? Maybe I DON'T know the answer to that. But I'm past caring.
The post should be titled,"Why I Don't Want Anyone To Know When I Strike It Rich, Especially My Relatives."
So sure it is worth it. Totally understood that it introduces other complications or it may not be as fulfilling as you imagined.
Other than money. I believe getting something you strive for is really worth it. It will give you happiness.
An extremely authoritative opinion from some Anonymous that appears more like speculations doesn't count.
