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0 pointsFooBarWidget3d ago0 comments

??? Doesn't Europe already have Wero (iDEAL in Netherlands)? That's a system for making online payments. Money gets directly debited from your bank account.

I've always found credit cards stupid. You just want to pay for something, and then suddenly you have a debt. You shouldn't be in debt when you can clearly pay with money you have. Credit card companies advertise with "super easy payments" and "buy now pay later" but at the same time the government warns all the time that "lending money costs money". Also, if your credit card number and CVC get leaked, then anybody can steal any amount of money, and your only recourse is to regularly check your statements and warn the bank within a month. Whereas with Wero/iDEAL you must authorize the exact transaction at that exact amount.

Supposedly, Americans have these "credit card rewards" loyalty program things. Doesn't exist in Europe. You can only pay, you don't get any bonuses. Which makes the only reason to have a credit card is to be able to pay in web shops that don't accept Wero/iDEAL.

0 comments

18 comments · 6 top-level

xxpor3d ago· 9 in thread

Europeans being so scared of debt is so funny. Just pay off your card every month.

The liability model is completely different in the US from Europe w.r.t. merchant vs bank.

The interchange fees are much much higher in the US, which is what pays for the rewards. Europe has an artificial cap.

Dries0073d ago

Almost all EU credit cards are automatic debit at the end of the month, i.e. carrying over balance is not even possible. You will simply be over-drafted on the linked debit account and charged a fee + steep interest if you spend more then you have. Typically until the overdraft is resolved, no further debit card payments can be made.

The only reasons to use a CC in EU are:

- online payments where CC is the only accepted form of payment

- delay payments until after receiving wage

- hotels, car rentals, and other places that lock an amount on your card

- extra insurance provided by some more premium cards (VISA Gold etc)

Ever since 3-D Secure (2FA for CC transactions, beyond the CCV code), you have been liable for any transaction that was validated by it. Your bank may still do a chargeback as a courtesy, but that's not guaranteed.

FooBarWidgetOP2d ago

Things like 3D Secure only work if the merchant supports it. I still regularly encounter shops that don't trigger the 3D Secure prompt at all.

1 more reply

looperhacks3d ago

I don't think it's primarily about being scared of debt, it's just a weird, unnecessary step in-between. I have a credit-card and even I don't understand why I should prefer it over my debit card

euio7573d ago

Setting weird rewards/cash back things aside, which is the main incentive for folks to use it over debit card in most places:

It's not fully unnecessary step in-between when fraud is involved.

If someone hacks you/deceives you and somehow they got $5000 from your debit card, then your bank account is $5000 smaller. That can impact your ability to pay rent, or whatever you needed those $5000 for.

If it's via credit card, you have a decent amount of time to contest and resolve the issue.

the disputed amount should effectively be removed from your balance or offset by a temporary provisional credit until the investigation is completed

2 more replies

soperj3d ago

> The interchange fees are much much higher in the US, which is what pays for the rewards.

You're just raising the price for everyone for the sake of Visa & Mastercard's profit. Europe's cap makes a ton of sense.

xdennis3d ago

> Europeans being so scared of debt is so funny.

I've never understood this mentality. It's like walking through a dangerous neighborhood knowing that you have excellent health insurance. If you get stabbed, you'll probably recover very well, but why take the risk?

I can understand going into debt to buy a house, but I can't understand going into debt to buy a can of tuna. Why take an unnecessary risk?

ricardobayes3d ago

Data shows they aren't that scared of debt, in fact some European countries have higher household debt than US, notably: Switzerland, Sweden and UK. It's pretty telling that Klarna is a Swedish company.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_household...

blenklo3d ago

Your liability comment would mean though that the EU should use it and USA shouldn't.

EU has low fees for transfer, USA has high fees for transfer but apparently its easier for an US Citizen to dispute something.

At least as far as i'm aware, if i send money to someone else, its gone.

Whats that artifical cap?

jbverschoor3d ago

10ct vs % of the value. The consumer is paying for that.

But I guess it’s the same logic as the tipping point/ salary culture in the US.

Or the fact that sales tax is not always included in the price.

Sayrus3d ago· 2 in thread

At least in France, most of what people call "credit cards" are actually debit cards.

anonzzzies3d ago

Yeah most EU citizens never had a credit card but they call them credit cards anyway.

a962d ago

As wrong as all the other blanket statements.

dgellow3d ago· 1 in thread

The way I understand it the Digital Euro doesn't compete with Wero. It's a way for the European Central Bank to emit money in digital form. In theory that doesn't require bank accounts, and can support offline transactions. It's a pretty different concept, more like a new form of money.

Wero, SEPA, and the digital euro are complementing each others

FooBarWidgetOP2d ago

How is "money in digital form" different from money on your bank account, which is also digital?

t-sauer3d ago

I assume you never really interacted with the credit card world? E.g. most banks in Germany will give you a credit card that automatically deducts the outstanding debt at the end of the month, you can't really collect debt over time.

In addition I can deposit money on my credit card, so effectively I never have to be in debt if I don't want to. I just have to charge it up which is done in like 3 seconds in the banking app. It can even be automated.

Lastly credit cards with bonus programs definitely exist in Europe. Cashback variations are the most common ones, but all kinds of programs exist. E.g. Eurowings has one https://www.eurowings.com/de/ihre-vorteile/kreditkarten/uebe...

woodruffw3d ago

Credit cards serve the same purpose as loans: they allow you to make a purchase in advance of expected income. There’s a reasonable civic argument that this kind of loan should be tightly regulated to stop people from ruining themselves, but the basic economics work fine for millions of Americans who pay their credit cards on time (or otherwise consider a balance acceptable given their purchasing plans).

(I don’t think the fraud distinction you’re making is as stark in practice: in the US, you’re less exposed to fraud with credit since it’s the creditor’s money, not yours. Reversing a debit transaction in the US is somewhat more involved, albeit for not-good reasons concerning the US’s aging financial infrastructure.)

clmul3d ago

Paying with credit card gives you at least some leverage when a merchant doesn't hold their end of the deal. Good luck getting your money back with iDEAL (it's not possible right now).

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

0 comments

18 comments · 6 top-level

xxpor3d ago· 9 in thread

Europeans being so scared of debt is so funny. Just pay off your card every month.

The liability model is completely different in the US from Europe w.r.t. merchant vs bank.

The interchange fees are much much higher in the US, which is what pays for the rewards. Europe has an artificial cap.

Dries0073d ago

The only reasons to use a CC in EU are:

- online payments where CC is the only accepted form of payment

- delay payments until after receiving wage

- hotels, car rentals, and other places that lock an amount on your card

- extra insurance provided by some more premium cards (VISA Gold etc)

FooBarWidgetOP2d ago

Things like 3D Secure only work if the merchant supports it. I still regularly encounter shops that don't trigger the 3D Secure prompt at all.

1 more reply

looperhacks3d ago

I don't think it's primarily about being scared of debt, it's just a weird, unnecessary step in-between. I have a credit-card and even I don't understand why I should prefer it over my debit card

euio7573d ago

Setting weird rewards/cash back things aside, which is the main incentive for folks to use it over debit card in most places:

It's not fully unnecessary step in-between when fraud is involved.

If it's via credit card, you have a decent amount of time to contest and resolve the issue.

the disputed amount should effectively be removed from your balance or offset by a temporary provisional credit until the investigation is completed

2 more replies

soperj3d ago

> The interchange fees are much much higher in the US, which is what pays for the rewards.

You're just raising the price for everyone for the sake of Visa & Mastercard's profit. Europe's cap makes a ton of sense.

xdennis3d ago

> Europeans being so scared of debt is so funny.

I can understand going into debt to buy a house, but I can't understand going into debt to buy a can of tuna. Why take an unnecessary risk?

ricardobayes3d ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_household...

blenklo3d ago

Your liability comment would mean though that the EU should use it and USA shouldn't.

EU has low fees for transfer, USA has high fees for transfer but apparently its easier for an US Citizen to dispute something.

At least as far as i'm aware, if i send money to someone else, its gone.

Whats that artifical cap?

jbverschoor3d ago

10ct vs % of the value. The consumer is paying for that.

But I guess it’s the same logic as the tipping point/ salary culture in the US.

Or the fact that sales tax is not always included in the price.

Sayrus3d ago· 2 in thread

At least in France, most of what people call "credit cards" are actually debit cards.

anonzzzies3d ago

Yeah most EU citizens never had a credit card but they call them credit cards anyway.

a962d ago

As wrong as all the other blanket statements.

dgellow3d ago· 1 in thread

Wero, SEPA, and the digital euro are complementing each others

FooBarWidgetOP2d ago

How is "money in digital form" different from money on your bank account, which is also digital?

t-sauer3d ago

woodruffw3d ago

clmul3d ago

Paying with credit card gives you at least some leverage when a merchant doesn't hold their end of the deal. Good luck getting your money back with iDEAL (it's not possible right now).

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse