> Each user has a secret: Stored securely in the database.
> Stateless Validation: The core validation remains stateless. We only need to consult the database for the user's secret, which we'd likely do anyway for authorization checks.
Is "stateless" the same as "serverless" now? Is author's brain stateless?
Storing a user's secret, the same way you store your applications secret does not make it more or less stateless.
In since you now have 2 layers of protection, you don't actually need to verify agains a user's secret immediately, you simply need to check that the token is valid using the app secret. The subset of valid tokens that you need to check is much smaller than the universe of all the unexpired tokens your application has issued.
If you have a security incident and need to revoke tokens for only a subset of your users, now you don't need to rotate your app secret and invalidate every single token and break every single session. You can simply log those users out.
Is author's brain stateless -- my bad, I thought this was not reddit
What you are describing here is different than what is described in the blog post that you linked to.
Please look at the definition of the function 'validateToken'. In particular, notice how 'getUser' function (which the author notes issues a DB query) is called for every JWT with a valid signature!
EDIT: I failed to realize that you are the author of the blog post. Still my point stands, in that your description doesn't match what the code does.
Or if you are doing inter service communication, you can use your app secret to validate that the token can actually cross your infra boundary (no user query here), and each internal service can then validate it in their scope, or if a passthrough (like a proxy), just forward it like an envelope.
What this does is give you 2 secure layers, therefore saving you from a lot of the compute (drop expired and globally invalid tokens at the boundary), kill db round trips meant only for token validation (attach to an existing user query you already do) and kill revocation list management.
> Validation: On each request, we validate the JWT's signature using the application secret and then validate the sjti using the user's secret.
Having to lookup the user secret from the db is no different than consulting a list of revoked tokens. You claim consulting a list of revoked tokens to be stateful. How is looking up the user secret different?
I have been using this for a while, and I haven't managed a revocation list, I haven't done user queries at the boundary and users are able to logout and instantly invalidate their JWT. I honestly haven't seen this elsewhere without overhead.
Because you're trying to bolt things on top of JWT, you're creating a worse version of that stateful authentication pattern:
1. You lost the statelessness of JWT by making database queries. Your claim that "you don't need to verify against user's secret immediately" is false, as you need to do that in all cases immediately after verifying the JWT signature to get the benefits of your system (token invalidation). Sure, you reject completely invalid tokens early, but you still need the statefulness to authenticate users properly (if your goal is to be able to invalidate tokens).
2. In your version, getting a read-only access to the user database (leaking per-user secrets) completely destroys token invalidation, and all your authentication now depends on one key. If, in addition to that, the JWT signing key leaks, user authentication is completely destroyed and can be bypassed by the attacker, who now can sign in as any user. (A common way to leak all this is by failing to properly secure backups).
Compared to a stateful session system with split-tokens, where the database stores tokenId => verifier, where verifier is Hash(randomToken), and user's token is id||randomToken, read-only access to the database doesn't let the attacker authenticate as any user. If the tokens that users presents are in the form of id||randomToken||HMAC(serverKey, id||randomToken) for early rejection as above, leaking serverKey still won't allow the attacker to authenticate as any user. The attacker needs write access.
> Is author's brain stateless -- my bad, I thought this was not reddit
I didn't realize that you were the author, I thought you were a reader who was misled by this blog post. Even better: you can go and edit it, removing "stateless" everywhere! It's fun to invent various protocols, but when someone points out the errors, surely you'd want to fix them -- no shame in making mistakes if you correct them.
Usually, when I think of a protocol, after writing down "Benefits" (as in your blog post), I write "Drawbacks" and then try to come up with downsides and compare it with existing protocols. I'd suggest you do the same.
PS. Find yourself in this picture: http://cryto.net/%7Ejoepie91/blog/2016/06/19/stop-using-jwt-...
But if we go with that, and downgrade it to somewhat stateless, I think it maintains it's value proposition well, since I have not seen many JWT applications be fully stateless, especially wrt authorization. So I took advantage of that and bolted this so you can use in during your existing authz flow. So pushing to later does not mean let's pull user data later (that does not change the cost). I mean do it when you have the data so you don't have to pull it just for this.
2. Secrets are encrypted at rest, you decrypt them in memory. Of course, if your app encryption key leaks someone can decrypt all those secrets, but this is an attack surface that already exists. Not trying to address that. Also, each user has their own secret, so you have one app level signing key, and N user signing keys, you need to leak all those and then get the app encryption key to decrypt all of them.
"Compared to a stateful session system with split-tokens" - sure, let me just tell every company that is using JWTs to migrate immediately to stateful session tokens. One sec...done, tomorrow will be a better day for all of us :-)
In all seriousness, I posted this a while ago asking for feedback, HN seemed more interested in AI than actual meaningful conversations. I appreciate the feedback and will update the description and make the examples more clear. The intention there was to compress as much as possible and letting readers implement their use of it where it matched their existing setups.
Regarding your link, I took a quick look (saw it a few years ago, forgot about it), but seems I inadvertently built option 6 "Rotate a user scoped signing key lazily, during authz, on pre validated tokens". This is fundamentally different has a new security and usability posture. And it's still not a session token as it keeps all JWT properties that people are using it for (I make no judgement of whether it's the best solution for them, only that they're using it).
Thanks for the feedback, there is room to improve there.
