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0 pointstadzikpk1d ago0 comments

This article is full of false assumptions.

For example: > Bot operators point a camera at a screen, a trivial automation with off-the-shelf hardware. For operations that need Play Integrity attestation specifically, a compliant Android device costs approximately $30 at current market prices

A bot farm cannot bypass for long with a $30 phone. Do you seriously think that if Google sees the same hardware identifier 1000s of times a day they are not going to consider that usage to be fraud?

I appreciate that Google's made a real proposal to avoid the web becoming bottomless AI slop. This article hasn't come with a better alternative - I'd love to see one!

0 comments

iamnothere1d ago

> Do you seriously think that if Google sees the same hardware identifier 1000s of times a day they are not going to consider that usage to be fraud?

Phones are very cheap, especially refurbished phones. Just have the phones mimic real life sleep/wake cycles and take occasional breaks. Use 25% more devices to account for the loss in uptime.

Besides, some people (often unemployed or disabled, and possibly with sleep disorders or mania) actually don’t do anything other than scroll on their phone all day and night. So you can’t rely on this as a good signal without creating even more blowback. And you really don’t want too much blowback from troubled people who have infinite free time.

varenc1d ago

This still doesn't seem very economical for the bot farm. For a device to look legit it has to only use its hardware identifier about as often as a real human would. This massively changes the economics. If you have 1 bot farm customer that wants 20,000 solves in a day, the bot farm would need something like 20000/200=100 phones to provide this. (assuming a real user can do about 200 solves before being flagged).

And the cost for the bot farm being detected is very high because if a phone's root key loses trust it destroys the value of the ~$30 phone they purchased. And of course, I'm sure Google can use the phone's value as another signal for trustworthiness, treating cheaper phones many generations behind as less trusted.

I don't think bot farms will go away completely, but the price will spike massively, which is all you need to discourage many types of abuse. Some Googling show that reCAPTCHA solves are about $0.003 each right now, so quite cheap. With this new reCAPTCHA, I suspect the price will jump massively.

jsnell1d ago

It is particularly funny because this is content marketing for a computational proof of work "captcha". Those are pure snakeoil, with economics that are probably at least four orders of magnitude more favorable to the abusers than this attestation would be.

Velocifyer1d ago

I'm pretty sure that the Ai copied the $30 number from my hacker news comments. However in the USA it is true. https://www.walmart.com/ip/Straight-Talk-Motorola-Moto-g-202... (carrier locks don't matter for this usecase.) I am not sure that that storing unique device identifiers is legal in the EU.

ribtoks1d ago

I remembered $30 from some comment I read, but didn't look for it later. If it was yours, thank you! (def. thank you for the Wallmart link! - would you like a credit in the blogpost like a quote?

Velocifyer1d ago

>would you like a credit in the blogpost like a quote?

Yes.

meowspace1d ago

inb4 someone productionizes this (the dependency of cloud phones exists & captcha solvers proved demand) && makes it a cloud service && we are back to square one.

realusername1d ago

> A bot farm cannot bypass for long with a $30 phone.

That's exactly what they are doing already, and it's not 30$/device but something like <5$/device. Remember they can buy the worst of the worst of the used market.

Betting on device attestation is really betting that smartphones will become less ubiquitous and more expensive to own. Sounds like it's not going to happen to me.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

0 comments

iamnothere1d ago

> Do you seriously think that if Google sees the same hardware identifier 1000s of times a day they are not going to consider that usage to be fraud?

Phones are very cheap, especially refurbished phones. Just have the phones mimic real life sleep/wake cycles and take occasional breaks. Use 25% more devices to account for the loss in uptime.

varenc1d ago

jsnell1d ago

Velocifyer1d ago

ribtoks1d ago

I remembered $30 from some comment I read, but didn't look for it later. If it was yours, thank you! (def. thank you for the Wallmart link! - would you like a credit in the blogpost like a quote?

Velocifyer1d ago

>would you like a credit in the blogpost like a quote?

Yes.

meowspace1d ago

inb4 someone productionizes this (the dependency of cloud phones exists & captcha solvers proved demand) && makes it a cloud service && we are back to square one.

realusername1d ago

> A bot farm cannot bypass for long with a $30 phone.

That's exactly what they are doing already, and it's not 30$/device but something like <5$/device. Remember they can buy the worst of the worst of the used market.

Betting on device attestation is really betting that smartphones will become less ubiquitous and more expensive to own. Sounds like it's not going to happen to me.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse