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0 pointsWurdan1mo ago0 comments

The business model works fundamentally differently in the US and Europe due to geography. The US is big, meaning that flights are often longer, meaning that fuel is a bigger portion of the operating cost. And fuel is essentially something airlines can’t reduce the cost of compared to other operating costs where it might be possible to optimize for greater efficiency.

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4 comments · 2 top-level

gib4441mo ago· 2 in thread

> meaning that flights are often longer

Got any sources?

I found:

Europe average flight length (2024): 1,157km [0]

USA average flight length (I could only find old data, 2005): 1,110km [1] (even if we index this up based on upward trends, maybe another 150km, that doesn't seem a huge difference to me?)

> The US is big

And Europe is big too. It's actually a bit bigger than the USA by land size.

Btw, IAG is a global airline group. Only ~32% of IAGs revenue is intra-Europe and domestic. Another data point: Turkish Airlines (very long-haul focused airline) 2025 net income margin was 12.1% in 2025.

I'm not sure your explanation is sufficient. I don't see the exception in the USA? I am certainly willing to accept there are other differences and challenges in the USA, but I don't think it's been presented yet in this discussion.

And remember the original claim was "Airlines are not great business. Margins are not great"

EDIT: I found https://www.airportroutes.com/airlines/NKS/ which does highlight that Spirit flew lengths longer compared to Europe's average, at 1,577 km - but then using the same source for Ryanair https://www.airportroutes.com/airlines/RYR/ it's 1,456km, so again, not a huge difference. So comparing 2 seemingly very similar airlines, the European one has both managed to be profitable and not go bankrupt...

[0] https://www.eurocontrol.int/publication/eurocontrol-data-sna...

[1] https://www.hsdl.org/c/view?docid=25985

WurdanOP1mo ago

How are you counting average distances? Simply as the distance between two points in the carrier’s network, or are you looking at the lengths of each individual flight?

The source for the point I made is a Wendover video - Why Budget Airlines are Suddenly Failing

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esseph1mo ago

You need to look at things like average distance and median distance, do some filtering for most common destinations (example: NYC to LA, San Francisco to Miami, Denver to DC, etc), fuel costs, but also operating costs. Salaries and everything cost much more in the US than they do in Europe.

Cost Per Seat Mile is $0.07 for RyanAir and $0.12 for Spirit, not counting fuel. Spirit hovers around 80% capacity while RyanAir is around 94%.

RyanAir's niche is secondary airports while Spirit was compeating with larger airlines at places like LAX where gate costs are higher.

In 2024 to 2025 there was an engine problem that required Spirit to ground 40% of the fleet to deal with it. Meanwhile they still had to pay for those aircraft with no revenue. This caused a major hit to the financials for a carrier that already runs on thin margins.

I'm sure there's more to it, but these are the larger things I've found.

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brohee1mo ago

Europe has passenger trains that work. What would be a short flight in the US, e.g. London to Paris is done more my train through the chunnel than flying unless you got a connecting flight.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

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4 comments · 2 top-level

gib4441mo ago· 2 in thread

> meaning that flights are often longer

Got any sources?

I found:

Europe average flight length (2024): 1,157km [0]

USA average flight length (I could only find old data, 2005): 1,110km [1] (even if we index this up based on upward trends, maybe another 150km, that doesn't seem a huge difference to me?)

> The US is big

And Europe is big too. It's actually a bit bigger than the USA by land size.

And remember the original claim was "Airlines are not great business. Margins are not great"

[0] https://www.eurocontrol.int/publication/eurocontrol-data-sna...

[1] https://www.hsdl.org/c/view?docid=25985

WurdanOP1mo ago

How are you counting average distances? Simply as the distance between two points in the carrier’s network, or are you looking at the lengths of each individual flight?

The source for the point I made is a Wendover video - Why Budget Airlines are Suddenly Failing

1 more reply

esseph1mo ago

Cost Per Seat Mile is $0.07 for RyanAir and $0.12 for Spirit, not counting fuel. Spirit hovers around 80% capacity while RyanAir is around 94%.

RyanAir's niche is secondary airports while Spirit was compeating with larger airlines at places like LAX where gate costs are higher.

I'm sure there's more to it, but these are the larger things I've found.

1 more reply

brohee1mo ago

Europe has passenger trains that work. What would be a short flight in the US, e.g. London to Paris is done more my train through the chunnel than flying unless you got a connecting flight.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse