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0 pointsLocalH8d ago0 comments

Flock should be shut down and their entire c-suite should be sent to prison for human rights violations

Also, not just an isolated incident: https://youtu.be/8BImTddknfk

We need strong laws preventing any AI process from being used for law enforcement at all. The mere presence of AI at any step in the process should result in complete exoneration.

0 comments

efitz8d ago

Flock is doing something I find unethical, even immoral, but maybe not illegal.

I want people who break the law to go to jail. I don’t care if they’re cops or c-suite execs.

But what I really want is laws (preferably federal) that make it illegal to build systems that can be used for mass surveillance, and I want law enforcement to HAVE to get a warrant to receive data from surveillance companies, even if they offer it without a warrant, because I want oversight.

bigyabai8d ago

> make it illegal to build systems that can be used for mass surveillance

Is such a law realistically enforceable? A lot of the surveillance systems used today are benign services like Push Notifications, SMS and online filesharing sites. A significantly motivated threat actor (like the NSA, Unit 8200, Salt Typhoon, etc.) would have no problem appropriating that data for themselves.

Something like an oversight committee might work better, but there would be a bipartisan effort to neuter them the moment they take action.

munk-a8d ago

We live in a strange time politically where the consensus on ethics is incredibly detached from justice. There is a danger in giving in to mob rules when it comes to the legal system but at this point we've wandered too far in the other direction with clear corruption around Flynn, Ticketmaster and others.

I simply don't find the argument that something isn't illegal compelling anymore since our justice system is so deeply misaligned with society. We live in the era of grift.

JuniperMesos8d ago

What sorts of things are you personally doing that aren't illegal, but that someone would want to imprison you for because they think you are unsympathetic for some reason and no longer find the argument that what you're doing isn't illegal to be compelling?

josefresco8d ago

> but maybe not illegal

We won't know for years/decades. This type of corporate malfeasance it being institutionalized at the highest levels.

analogpixel8d ago

maybe we could start small, just add the entire c-suite to the warrant list and shrug when they tell people to take them off.

LocalHOP8d ago

The cops won't do that because they'd rather be lazy and let Flock do their investigative work for them

readthenotes18d ago

"We need strong laws preventing any AI process from being used for law enforcement at all. The mere presence of AI at any step in the process should result in complete exoneration."

Why?

It seems to me that the biggest problem with policing is qualified immunity that prevents proper feedback (or what my dad would have called "consequences").

Without that, the tools the police use are largely irrelevant.

LocalHOP8d ago

Good luck ending qualified immunity. The current SCOTUS would strike such a law down in seconds if it reached their docket

Zigurd8d ago

Colorado and New Mexico do not have qualified immunity for law-enforcement. It's not carved in stone and it's not inevitable. If your state has ballot questions, it's time to get that on the ballot at the next possible opportunity.

lotsofpulp8d ago

Why punish the employees of a business when the root cause is corrupt government employees abusing their power?

Edit to respond to smt88:

IBM knowingly selling services to the Nazis specifically to violate human rights is not the same as Flock selling services to cops to aid in identification. In addition, going after 1 business is simply an inefficient use of resources, when the government employees can simply use a different business to abuse their power.

LocalHOP8d ago

I didn't say the employees should be imprisoned. I said the c-suite, the ones actually in charge. They're enabling these cops to be lazy and not do their job properly, and have directly contributed to numerous human rights violations.

lotsofpulp8d ago

C Suite are employees too. I do not see them breaking any laws, but I do see government employees abusing their power, if not breaking the law.

5 more replies

Zigurd8d ago

Your question is too unspecific. We're talking about cop tech and surveillance, which has a very specific business ecosystem.

smt887d ago

Why didn't you just respond to my comment instead of editing?

Anyway you didn't explain how IBM and Flock are different. Flock's work has already resulted in innocent citizens getting murdered extrajudiciously.

smt888d ago

Do you think IBM executives should've been punished for facilitating the Nazi war machine after WW2?

If you sell a tool and know that it'll be used for evil, are you innocent?

LocalHOP8d ago

> Do you think IBM executives should've been punished for facilitating the Nazi war machine after WW2?

Emphatic yes

Bayer lost their exclusive rights to aspirin because they aided the Central Powers during WW1

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

0 comments

efitz8d ago

Flock is doing something I find unethical, even immoral, but maybe not illegal.

I want people who break the law to go to jail. I don’t care if they’re cops or c-suite execs.

bigyabai8d ago

> make it illegal to build systems that can be used for mass surveillance

Something like an oversight committee might work better, but there would be a bipartisan effort to neuter them the moment they take action.

munk-a8d ago

I simply don't find the argument that something isn't illegal compelling anymore since our justice system is so deeply misaligned with society. We live in the era of grift.

JuniperMesos8d ago

josefresco8d ago

> but maybe not illegal

We won't know for years/decades. This type of corporate malfeasance it being institutionalized at the highest levels.

analogpixel8d ago

maybe we could start small, just add the entire c-suite to the warrant list and shrug when they tell people to take them off.

LocalHOP8d ago

The cops won't do that because they'd rather be lazy and let Flock do their investigative work for them

readthenotes18d ago

"We need strong laws preventing any AI process from being used for law enforcement at all. The mere presence of AI at any step in the process should result in complete exoneration."

Why?

It seems to me that the biggest problem with policing is qualified immunity that prevents proper feedback (or what my dad would have called "consequences").

Without that, the tools the police use are largely irrelevant.

LocalHOP8d ago

Good luck ending qualified immunity. The current SCOTUS would strike such a law down in seconds if it reached their docket

Zigurd8d ago

lotsofpulp8d ago

Why punish the employees of a business when the root cause is corrupt government employees abusing their power?

Edit to respond to smt88:

LocalHOP8d ago

lotsofpulp8d ago

C Suite are employees too. I do not see them breaking any laws, but I do see government employees abusing their power, if not breaking the law.

5 more replies

Zigurd8d ago

Your question is too unspecific. We're talking about cop tech and surveillance, which has a very specific business ecosystem.

smt887d ago

Why didn't you just respond to my comment instead of editing?

Anyway you didn't explain how IBM and Flock are different. Flock's work has already resulted in innocent citizens getting murdered extrajudiciously.

smt888d ago

Do you think IBM executives should've been punished for facilitating the Nazi war machine after WW2?

If you sell a tool and know that it'll be used for evil, are you innocent?

LocalHOP8d ago

> Do you think IBM executives should've been punished for facilitating the Nazi war machine after WW2?

Emphatic yes

Bayer lost their exclusive rights to aspirin because they aided the Central Powers during WW1

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse