We already had that, it's called shortwave radio. The internet, especially as it's implemented and as it's used, is a terrible way to achieve this. It's service providers the whole way down.
But at the same time there is a quote by Stanisław Lem...
"Until I used the Internet, I didn't know there were so many idiots in the world"
The "slow intellectual decline" has circular causality with advancement of mass media and convenience tech.
It's been in crisis for decades, but it's also getting increasingly worse every year.
It’s clumsier than ipv4. It’s unnecessary since NAT was invented. In practice IPv6 requires dual stack, which means twice as many firewalls, names and routes to manage — so 4x the debugging because you have 2 dimensions that can either be working or failing. Addresses are too long to remember, too clumsy to write, and after 30 years still don’t have consistent representation (how many colons and brackets?).
Look, IPv6 has some benefits, but until the usability is fixed, it will be another 30 years before it’s close to 95% adoption.
This is a privileged view of someone whose ISP has enough money (or was around early enough) to get enough IPv4 addresses to assign one to every customer's WAN interface. Not everyone is so lucky.
A lot of folks get non-publicly-routable 100.64.0.0/10[1] on their WAN interface with no way to do hole punching because they're behind CG-NAT.
10 years ago I was all gung-ho about IPv6, but it's annoying at every level.
Having to deal with the separate socklen_t is mildly annoying, but you can just make a little struct that holds both.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unique_local_address
If your intranet has no IPv4 addresses, this is better than a NAT somehow?
> A home network running IPv6 should deploy ULAs alongside its globally unique prefix(es) to allow stable communication between devices (on different subnets) within the homenet
[1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7368.html#section-2...
I later moved and my current ISP does not have ipv6 support but my ULA setup kept working fine with some minor tweaks.
> A home network running IPv6 should deploy ULAs alongside its globally unique prefix(es) to allow stable communication between devices (on different subnets) within the homenet
> When an IPv6 node in a homenet has both a ULA and a globally unique IPv6 address, it should only use its ULA address internally and use its additional globally unique IPv6 address as a source address for external communications.
Obviously. Anyone who does understand how networks work aren't going to spend any time talking about it. People don't talk about things they are certain about. They talk about what they don't know much about to feel out what they're missing. You will never find a discussion where pushing back reveals that you found the world's utmost expert. The world's utmost expert is bored with the subject and has moved on to talking about the things he has gaps in.
Listen here, if there is a networking technology or feature that I wasn't forced learn when I half-assed a SOHO router config in 2005, then it shouldn't exist at all.
I'll tell you that if you just think of it on its own, it's really no harder than IPv4 + ARP + DHCP, just one or two extra things to remember.
The difficulty of adoption is the featureset and the UX of operating systems and home routers in particular. It is really difficult to find a consumer router, or even home networking OS, that exposes sensible working defaults for IPv6. The problem extends to the ISPs.
The spec is fine.
``` > ping6 google.com PING6(56=40+8+8 bytes) 2605:59c0:236f:3a08:7883:9d04:c26d:5fa1 --> 2607:f8b0:4005:806::200e 16 bytes from 2607:f8b0:4005:806::200e, icmp_seq=0 hlim=117 time=22.262 ms 16 bytes from 2607:f8b0:4005:806::200e, icmp_seq=1 hlim=117 time=26.124 ms 16 bytes from 2607:f8b0:4005:806::200e, icmp_seq=2 hlim=117 time=26.807 ms ^C --- google.com ping6 statistics --- 3 packets transmitted, 3 packets received, 0.0% packet loss round-trip min/avg/max/std-dev = 22.262/25.064/26.807/2.001 ms ```
Networking is a lot more than being able to ping a single host.
As a concrete counter-example, IPv6 routinely broke for me when I was using pfSense as a router. Why? Because pfSense, with no way of disabling this behavior, published its public IP as the DNS server for internal clients.
So each time I got a new prefix from my ISP, which happens about once a week or more often, machines stopped being able to perform DNS lookups for hours or until I rebooted them.
And, if I had bothered configuring IPv6 firewall rules, those would have had to be reconfigured manually with the new prefix. I understand this is mostly fixed in pfSense recently, but this was the case for many, many years.
Another counter-example is that Android only supports SLAAC, and SLAAC only supports providing a few key infrastructure details like router and DNS. If you want to tell the Android client something else, like NTP server, you're outta luck. Also, if Android successfully gets an IPv6 address via SLAAC, it requires the DNS server IP to also be an IPv6 address. So your internal DNS server must then also serve on IPv6. If that wasn't the case, it would just silently use Google's own DNS servers, breaking any local configuration you had.
Another point is that a lot of us tried using IPv6 decades ago, and so we still have scars from that time. IPv6 today is a lot better, but I still have a lot of IPv6 frustration associated with it from 15-20 years ago.
Why would you have to reconfigure your firewall rules when you're getting a new IPv6 prefix?
I mean, I have a router that is trash with IP4. Therefore IP4 is trash!
I used to. When I had a home network I'd carefully assign `10.52.1.x` where `x` was the periodic number corresponding to the machine name! (I write from `lutetium`.)
Now, with Tailscale's magic DNS – `lutetium` being all I need – why on Earth would I give a crap about an IP address? I've gone from being obsessed to truly not caring at all.
So, give me IPv6. Auto-assign everything! All I want is a name.
The main thing all those have in common is they are either something I frequently use (all mentioned local IPs) or just stupid easy to remember (DNS servers), neither of which isn't possible for IPv6.
From memory isn't localhost for IPv6 not shorter than for IPv4? The answer is yes, it is ::1 and I was thinking of the Multicast and Link-local address prefixes which are ff00:: and fe80:: respectively.
Introducing a more complex system without easing any of the cognitive load and making fun of it is just cruel at this moment.
Users need a simpler way to connect to their devices, and what tailscale did with magic dns shows that users don’t even care about IPv4 they just want to connect to their devices with something simple they can remember.
So 10.20.30.40 would be an IPv4 address, and 10.20.30.40:fa:be:4c:9d could be an IPv6 address. With the :00:00:00:00 suffix being equivalent to the IPv4 version.
I just made this up, so I'm sure that a couple years of deep thought by a council of scientists and engineers could come up with something even better.
But to stick with the ASCII->UTF-8 comparison: how would you have done the transition if you had to stay within ASCII's size of 7 bits?
Just split the address into two 32-bit chunks (call the top word the "pool", bottom word "address") and assign the full IPV4 range to pool 0x00000000. Done.
Found this visual breakdown of IPv4 -> IPv6 transition.
Dual stack and tunneling sections show how much complexity came from not having a clean migration path - https://vectree.io/c/ipv4-vs-ipv6-address-architecture-nat-a...
I have my own /24 that I registered back in the 90's. It is, in fact, routed and announced globally. I know several "early Internet" nerds with the same.
I know three local companies with /16's that aren't even announcing their blocks! Perhaps they use them internally.
I speak as someone who worked at an institute that had similar abundance of address space.
The only lesson to learn from IPv6 deployment is that if there's a workaround available and the world isn't burning, it'll take 30 years from initial design to actual adoption. So if you went out and took 10 years to design IPv7, it'd likely take until 2070 for it to gain some adoption. This is because big network hardware is costly and has very long replacement cycles.
IPv6 was already designed as a lessons-learnt protocol from IPv4 issues. The header is greatly simplified and it's more hardware-friendly, it incorporates the required features into the protocol and leaves extensibility as an optional add-on that doesn't slow down routing packets, all the while granting an infinite address space.
Per Google, quite a few countries (including the US) are at >50%:
* https://www.google.com/intl/en/ipv6/statistics.html#tab=per-...
Every handset on T-Mobile US's network gets IPv6 (and they're not the only carrier like that):
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6oBCYHzrTA
So I'm not quite sure where "failed" enters the equation.
And what exactly would be different with IPv7? Anything that needs more address bits would have to update DNS to create new resource record types ("A" is hard-coded to 32-bits) to support the new longer addresses, and have all user-land code start asking for, using, and understanding the new record replies. Just like with IPv6. (A lot of legacy code did not have room in data structures for multiple reply types: sure you'd get the "A" but unless you updated the code to get the "A7" address (for "IPv7" addresses) you could never get to the longer with address… just like IPv6 needed code updates to recognize AAAA, otherwise you were A-only.)
You need to update socket APIs to hold new data structures for longer addresses so your app can tell the kernel to send packets to the new addresses. Just like with IPv6.
Big companies believe that they have plenty of IPv4 space, especially because they've always been lax in how they read IPv4 RFCs and use IPv4 routing behind corporate firewalls. Big companies also have the most cash to buy IPv4 blocks as they go to auction. Big companies have massive firewalls and strict VPNs which also insulate them from IPv4 scarcity.
IPv4 leases don't impact enough companies' bottom lines today that they need to assess IPv6 support.
Solving those economic incentive problems would likely be a massive sociopolitical problem: you would need IANA and the RIRs to agree to inflate costs in various ways (and in the short term that might have done a lot of harm to small countries already facing IPv4 inequity and their RIRs that lost the very earliest IPv4 assignment lotteries). You'd probably need new RFCs and political enforcement to support things like "taxing" company to company IPv4 block assignments. You'd probably need collusion or regulation from the big "Cloud Providers" to enforce higher costs on IPv4-only networking.
It would take those kind of "strong handed" tactics to speed up IPv6 adoption in corporate networks. Waiting for the "invisible hand" of the "free market" can be very slow and takes patience. That's mostly what we've been seeing with IPv6 adoption: the "invisible hand" is a lot slower than some people predicted. Especially engineers that hoped technical superiority alone would be a market winner.
Sure everything above IPv6 have, but it took years and years of screaming to get it.
1. IPv6 addresses are too long to remember
2. IPv6 doesn't need NAT and people are uncomfortable with their devices having a public address as they see NAT as an additional layer of securityBut yeah, SLAAC's paradigm of moving assignment logic into the node (away from network infra like in DHCP) is definitely a stumbling point.
PS: I'm talking about MSO hardware. But client hardware should be at the same level of compatibility for years too.
$ ping6 github.com
ping6: github.com: Address family for hostname not supportedEven after reading about them many times and using them in (an albeit limited) fashion, they still just don't feel human friendly. Not like the more straightforward IPv4 addresses do. (Or even like a hypothetical "IPv5" that simply prefixes one extra octet).
Whenever I bring this up I'm told something like "Don't bother memorizing IPv6 addresses. Use DNS instead."[1]
That take completely overlooks the fact that if the numbers exist, you will inevitably wind up needing to deal with them at various points along the way. Eg. Debugging logs, sniffing network traffic, ruling out if DNS is down, etc. I'm a big fan of ergonomics to make things intuitive and reduce unnccessary cognitive overhead, and the new scheme is a regression in that regard.
If anyone has tips on how they became more fluent with IPv6 I'd love to hear.
[1] https://www.networkworld.com/article/934784/mission-impossib...
Here's some roughly equivalent IP addresses:
203.0.113.45+192.168.1.1 ↔ 2001:db8:2d4f:1::1
203.0.113.45+192.168.1.2 ↔ 2001:db8:2d4f:1::2
203.0.113.45+192.168.1.3 ↔ 2001:db8:2d4f:1::3
203.0.113.45+192.168.2.1 ↔ 2001:db8:2d4f:2::1
When you look at 2001:db8:2d4f:X::Y, it should be pretty easy to see that it's host Y on subnet X, under your prefix which is the same for your whole network. Even if it's 2001:db8:2d4f:X:YYYY:YYYY:YYYY:YYYY it's still the same thing, just with more characters.
And has the practice of generating portions of the address from your MAC address been universally (or at least mostly) abandoned?
https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc7084
It describes in detail what a home router needs to be doing to make all of this work seamlessly.
Things work so well that half the world has working IPv6 already.
Openwrt pretty much implements all of this out of the box.
If you are struggling with IPv6 I recommend reading up on where it is at today and figuring out how whatever makes your network special can be done using IPv6 with no fuss.
Personally I have moved several times changing ISPs in the process and my IPv6 setup involving multiple LANs on my home network has just continued to work. IPv6 renumbering events just work seamlessly and completely automatically.
Historically the only practical hold up to IPv6 adoption has been the ISPs not rolling it out to their customers.
[1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7368.html#section-3...
And corporate networks: in Google's stats you'll see IPv6 usage jumps on weekends as people do stuff not using their work computer.
> ...
> Historically the only practical hold up to IPv6 adoption has been the ISPs not rolling it out to their customers.
Yep, that's where I am. Frontier FTTH, IPv4 only. Because....I have no idea why. Because Frontier sucks, basically? They have at least started their rollout:
https://stats.labs.apnic.net/ipv6/AS5650?c=US&p=1&v=1&w=30&x...
...but it's going to be slow going. Don't get me wrong, I'd rather cut off my fingers than go back to Comcast, but at least Comcast gave me a /56.
Winamp 3 -> Winamp 5 was closer to Winamp 2. Windows 8 -> Windows 10 was closer to Windows 7.
Though I don't expect this to happen with IP.
I never use them on my web, chat, voice, IRC and other servers as I personally find blocking shenanigans on IPv4 and not having to implement the same checks on IPv6 is just easier for a lazy person like me. IPv6 just feels like an after-thought bolt on to me. Clunky, not well thought out. Some privacy gotchas that can be disabled but some will not. That's just my take. I doubt anyone will have the same take.
I think IPv4 will be fine for another 100 years even if we have to re-purpose some DoD/MoD ranges given they don't use them and maybe annex some /8's from a few greedy companies. But that's a problem for Gen Delta. Gen Foxtrot can deal with repurposing some multicast ranges.
IPv6 is for the people (countries, continents) who did not get in early on the IPv4 address gold rush. Your take is basically "got mine, F you".
The trouble is that 1) my employers do not have native ipv6 access; 2) neither does my mobile connection; and 3) really nor do a lot of my friends. Moreover, 4) if you browse a website from a native world-reachable ipv6 address, you're fingerprinted by it and it's overwhelmingly unique to you. So, it doesn't really work for hosting, and I don't get any direct benefits from it.
Instead I have a vps with a public ipv4 address and have a router that creates a wireguard tunnel to it. The reverse proxy works great over ipv6 and I am now in a position where I can forward ports and have direct connections -- albeit with hugely increased technical complexity. Ipv6 has many great ideas in it. If it's universally used it might just catch on...
IPv6 privacy extensions exist & are enabled by default in most (if not all) operating systems today, which (this is my understanding; take it with a grain of salt) create what essentially are extra IPv6 addresses, used for outbound traffic, that aren't generated via your MAC address.
All I want to do is give every machine on my network a friendly hostname like storage.lan, timsPhone.lan, etc without having to run BIND (if possible), or dhcpd.
I have heard of zeroconf for ipv4, but the catch is I want this to work across several different platforms like Windows , freebsd, Linux, etc. I also don't want to use static addresses, but I feel like that's asking too much.
mDNS supports IPv6 just fine/works on IPv6 only LANs.
IPv6 - still the same, but the space is large enough that any first-mover advantage is minuscule.
32 bits seemed practically infinite at the time IPv4 was created, and the whole thing started as a way for the American military-industrial-research complex to communicate with itself anyway. Why would you even want to assign addresses on your defense network to foreign adversaries?
Now that it's a commercial thing, a more equitable distribution would have, with hindsight, been a good thing.
Both IPv4 and IPv6 addresses are 'just' u_ints: one is 2^32 and the other is 2^128. The fact that we display them in a particular format (10.11.12.13; ff:ee::bb:aa) is only for human UX purposes.
Strictly speaking everything in a computer is 'just' a number represented in base-2 (binary digits: bits) that we affix certain labels to (char, int, float, struct).
Many here will be familiar with the second system effect [1]. Usually people want to avoid making breaking changes but once they do, they can go a little nuts. My personal opinion is only major versions should make breaking changes and a lot of thought should go into making them as painless as possible.
IPv6 is fascinating for these reasons but also that it's a product of its time in two main ways:
1. It doesn't do anything about roaming because that wasn't an issue in the 1990s but it certainly is now;
2. A 64 bit address space would've basically been infinite addresses but instead they went with 128 bit addresses (rolling in ports) but then giving individual users a /64 address range. For some reason people deny it now or simply weren't aware but that too is a historical artifact because it was intended to put a 48 bit MAC address into that space but later we realized that's a huge PII and tracking issue; and
3. History has shown that upgrading network backbone hardware (in particular) is incredibly difficult through a process that's been described as "ossification", which is a nice description. Basically, network relays and routers wanted to avoid security issues and decided to discard things they didn't understand.
That's interesting because it violates Postel's Law [2], which basically says be liberal in what you accept and conservative in what you send.
But this shows up in all sorts of interesting ways, like it's practically impossible to reliably use MTUs larger than about 1536. When IPv4 was designed, that wasn't an issue. With 1-100G+ networks it is. There are RFCs about using large MTUs but you're dependent on backbone hardware you have no control over.
Even Linux struggles with this, to the point where you need to do some configuration for high-bandwidth networks (eg RPS [3]). Just handling all those interrupts presents a bunch of problems beyond the original scope. And again, it's hard to fix through no fault of Linux's.
I'm old enough to remember the talk about us running out of IPv4 addresses back in the 1990s. It's been interesting to watch how this has consistently been kicked down the street (eg cgNAT).
What is funny though is large companies (eg Facebook) actualy ran out of internal addresses on a 10/8 network and there's no good solution for that (with IPv4 at least).
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second-system_effect
What makes you suggest that it's backbone hardware that is the problem? It's largely enterprise customers and tier 3 providers that don't really do IPv6 afaics.
Would say the opposite is true. Core routers were the first to enable V6 support in any network as they would need support it for anything else to even use it. They got regularly replaced as bandwidth needs keeps rising as well.
Plenty of isps advertise ipv6 but haven't managed to give it to customers yet.
Interrupts are hardly a problem with any nics of the last decade really.
Companies like Facebook can and do use 240/4.
But that should be a perfect playground for an IPv6-only network that has gateways to the IPv4 content; eventually the home-developed content will begin to drive demand elsewhere.
If India were to turn off IPv4, it would be a great incentive for IPv4-only sites in the US and Europe to add an IPv6 address.