undefined | Better HN

0 pointsNegitivefrags2mo ago0 comments

I've written a lot of code using that method, and never had any portability issues. You use types with number of bits in them.

Hell, I've slung C structs across the network between 3 CPU architectures. And I didn't even use htons!

Maybe it's not portable to some ancient architecture, but none that I have experienced.

If there is undefined behavior, it's certainly never been a problem either.

And I've seen a lot of talk about TLB shootdown, so I tried to reproduce those problems but even with over 32 threads, mmap was still faster than fread into memory in the tests I ran.

Look, obviously there are use cases for libraries like that, but a lot of the time you just need something simple, and writing some structs to disk can go a long way.

0 comments

pjmlp2mo ago

Some people also don't use protective gear when going downhill biking, it is a matter of feeling lucky.

benj1112mo ago

On the other hand some people have things to ward off evil demons, and aren't bothered by evil demons.

The parent has actually done the thing, and found no issues, I don't think you can hand wave that away with a biased metaphor.

Otherwise you get 'Goto considered harmful' and people not using it even when it fits.

pjmlp2mo ago

As proven by many languages without native support for plain old goto, it isn't really required when proper structured programming constructs are available, even if it happens to be a goto under the hood, managed by the compiler.

benj1112mo ago

My point is it's bad debating style. 'Everyone knows C is bad for all kinds of reasons ergo, even when someone presents their own actual experience, I can respond with a refrain that sounds good'

Not using goto because you've heard it's always bad is the same kind of thing. Yes it has issues, but that isn't a reason to brush anyone off that have actual valid uses for it.

1 more reply

ddtaylor2mo ago

C allows most of this, whereas C++ doesn't allow pointer aliasing without a compiler flag, tricks and problems.

I agree you can certainly just use bytes of the correct sizes, but often to get the coverage you need for the data structure you end up writing some form of wrapper or fixup code, which is still easier and gives you the control versus most of the protobuf like stuff that introduces a lot of complexity and tons of code.

nly2mo ago

__attribute__((may_alias, packed)) right on the struct.

amluto2mo ago

Check your generated code. Most compilers assume that packed also means unaligned and will generate unaligned load and store sequences, which are large, slow, and may lose whatever atomicity properties they might have had.

johannes12343212mo ago

That is not C, but a non-standard extension and thus not portable.

josefx2mo ago

> non-standard extension and thus not portable

Modern versions of standard C aren't very portable either, unless you plan to stick to the original version of K&R C you have to pick and choose which implementations you plan to support.

1 more reply

lionkor2mo ago

That seems highly unlikely. Let's assume that all compilers use the exact same padding in C structs, that all architectures use the same alignment, and that endianness is made up, that types are the same size across 64 and 32 bit platforms, and also pretend that pointers inside a struct will work fine when sent across the network; the question remains still: Why? Is THIS your bottleneck? Will a couple memcpy() operations that are likely no-op if your structs happen to line up kill your perf?

zadikian2mo ago

I guess to not have to set up protobuf or asn1. Those preconditions of both platforms using the same padding and endianness aren't that hard to satisfy if you own it all.

But do you really have such a complex struct where everything inside is fixed-size? I wouldn't be surprised if it happens, but this isn't so general-purpose like the article suggests.

lionkor2mo ago

There are at least 10 steps between protobuf and casting a struct to a char*.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

0 comments

pjmlp2mo ago

Some people also don't use protective gear when going downhill biking, it is a matter of feeling lucky.

benj1112mo ago

On the other hand some people have things to ward off evil demons, and aren't bothered by evil demons.

The parent has actually done the thing, and found no issues, I don't think you can hand wave that away with a biased metaphor.

Otherwise you get 'Goto considered harmful' and people not using it even when it fits.

pjmlp2mo ago

benj1112mo ago

My point is it's bad debating style. 'Everyone knows C is bad for all kinds of reasons ergo, even when someone presents their own actual experience, I can respond with a refrain that sounds good'

Not using goto because you've heard it's always bad is the same kind of thing. Yes it has issues, but that isn't a reason to brush anyone off that have actual valid uses for it.

1 more reply

ddtaylor2mo ago

C allows most of this, whereas C++ doesn't allow pointer aliasing without a compiler flag, tricks and problems.

nly2mo ago

__attribute__((may_alias, packed)) right on the struct.

amluto2mo ago

johannes12343212mo ago

That is not C, but a non-standard extension and thus not portable.

josefx2mo ago

> non-standard extension and thus not portable

Modern versions of standard C aren't very portable either, unless you plan to stick to the original version of K&R C you have to pick and choose which implementations you plan to support.

1 more reply

lionkor2mo ago

zadikian2mo ago

I guess to not have to set up protobuf or asn1. Those preconditions of both platforms using the same padding and endianness aren't that hard to satisfy if you own it all.

But do you really have such a complex struct where everything inside is fixed-size? I wouldn't be surprised if it happens, but this isn't so general-purpose like the article suggests.

lionkor2mo ago

There are at least 10 steps between protobuf and casting a struct to a char*.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse