undefined | Better HN

0 pointscompumike1mo ago0 comments

> Schematics also help explain your circuit because the idioms of drawing them communicate intent.

I think this is a key point. One could imagine three layers:

(1) NETLIST: a list of text-only descriptions, like "R1 1 0 1k", or even a sentence description "connect a 1k resistor between node 1 and node 0"

(2) SCHEMATIC: a 2D drawing with canonical symbols, straight lines for wires, and labels/notes

(3) LAYOUT: a 3D (or multi-layer 2D) physical representation for PCB, or in this case breadboarding

All three layers are useful. (Obviously you need layout to make a PCB, and you need a netlist for simulation.)

But for most humans, where we have 2D visual representations baked in, if you're trying to understand or communicate what's going on:

- It's really really hard to keep track of a bunch of text sentences like a netlist and node numbers/names for all but the simplest circuits -- maybe 3-5 elements?

- It's really really hard to follow a 3D layout of PCB tracks that leads to pads, and then having to remember pin orders etc.

- It's easiest to follow a schematic diagram. It's browsable. It contains "idioms", as you say, about signal flow, logical block groupings, etc.: purpose and intent and functionality, in a way that netlists and physical layouts don't.

FYI, for medium-large digital circuits, I don't think this is true: probably just reading VHDL/Verilog, like reading source code, makes more sense. This is closer to the "netlist" level. I think that's because you'd name modules and inputs/outputs in a way similar to how you'd name functions and arguments in software, which doesn't really apply to "Resistor" or "Capacitor" as primitives.

But for a pretty big practical range of mixed-mode and analog things, I'd argue that schematics really are the easiest level for our brains.

(Disclosure: I'm one of the founders of CircuitLab https://www.circuitlab.com/ (YC W13) where we've been building an online circuit simulator & schematic editor for a long time. Although I'm mostly on the simulation engine / netlist side. My cofounder and other teammates have done most of the schematic GUI work.)

IMHO solderless breadboards still have their place for prototyping some slow circuits, ballpark maybe < 1 MHz signals, if you're aware of the extra capacitance and limitations. :)

0 comments

buescher29d ago

You essentially can practice the classical art of memory on a 2D representation (think why you can remember who was at lunch by thinking about where they sat), and it's useful to have them at different levels. Almost any nontrivial schematic should have an associated block diagram (by this I do not mean it necessarily should be captured at the block diagram level in a "hierarchical design"; these can be more trouble than they're worth). There are other types of diagrams that can be useful, too.

I haven't done much HDL work so I don't have strong opinions there, but let's think about graphical representations source code and software intent for a moment. I like to see some block-level description of firmware even if it's just a few rectangles representing the main loop and each ISR other other process with text indicating what they do. I like to see statecharts. If someone has written an implicit flags-and-conditionals state machine, I'll draw the statechart and start probing for bugs and debugging from there. Tools like Scitools Understand are drastically underrated for figuring out other people's code, incidentally.

What kills me about the aforementioned style is that it eschews the schematic as a tool for thinking and implicitly sees schematic capture as a layer of friction you have to get through to get to layout. I suspect a lot of designs drawn that way were built up point-to-point on a breadboard and never sketched or even otherwise mentally visualized.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse