undefined | Better HN

0 pointsthrowup2383mo ago0 comments

> Engineers are an entirely distinct set of roles that among other things validate the plan in its totality, not only the "new" 1/5th. Our job spans both of these.

Where this analogy breaks down is that the work you’re describing is done by Professional Engineers that have strict licensing and are (criminally) liable for the end result of the plans they approve.

That is an entirely different role from the army of civil, mechanical, and electrical engineers (some who are PEs and some who are not) who do most of the work for the principal engineer/designated engineer/engineer of record, that have to trust building codes and tools like FEA/FEM that then get final approval from the most senior PE. I don’t think the analogy works, as software engineers rarely report to that kind of hierarchy. Architects of Record on construction projects are usually licensed with their own licensing organization too, with layers of licensed and unlicensed people working for them.

0 comments

AlotOfReading3mo ago

That diversity of roles is what "among other things" was meant to convey. My job at least isn't terribly different, except that licensing doesn't exist and I don't get an actual stamp. My company (and possibly me depending on the facts of the situation) is simply liable if I do something egregious that results in someone being hurt.

blibble3mo ago

> Where this analogy breaks down is that the work you’re describing is done by Professional Engineers that have strict licensing and are (criminally) liable for the end result of the plans they approve.

there are plenty of software engineers that work in regulated industries, with individual licensing, criminal liability, and the ability to be struck off and banned from the industry by the regulator

... such as myself

bilbo0s3mo ago

Sure.

But no one stops you from writing software again.

It's not that PE's can't design or review buildings in whatever city the egregious failure happened.

It's that PE's can't design or review buildings at all in any city after an egregious failure.

It's not that PE's can't design or review hospital building designs because one of their hospital designs went so egregiously sideways.

It's that PE's can't design or review any building for any use because their design went so egregiously sideways.

I work in an FDA regulated software area. I need 510k approval and the whole nine. But if I can't write regulated medical or dental software anymore, I just pay my fine and/or serve my punishment and go sling React/JS/web crap or become a TF/PyTorch monkey. No one stops me. Consequences for me messing up are far less severe than the consequences for a PE messing up. I can still write software because, in the end, I was never an "engineer" in that hard sense of the word.

Same is true of any software developer. Or any unlicensed area of "engineering" for that matter. We're only playing at being "engineers" with the proverbial "monopoly money". We lose? Well, no real biggie.

PE's agree to hang a sword of damocles over their own heads for the lifetime of the bridge or building they design. That's a whole different ball game.

blibble3mo ago

> Consequences for me messing up are far less severe than the consequences for a PE messing up.

if I approve a bad release that leads to an egregious failure, for me it's a prison sentence and unlimited fines

in addition to being struck off and banned from the industry

> That's a whole different ball game.

if you say so

bilbo0s3mo ago

>if I approve a bad release that leads to an egregious failure, for me it's a prison sentence and unlimited fines

Again, I'm in 510k land. The same applies to myself. No one's gonna allow me to irradiate a patient with a 10x dose because my bass ackwards software messed up scientific notation. To remove the wrong kidney because I can't convert orthonormal basis vectors correctly.

But the fact remains that no one would stop either of us from writing software in the future in some other domain.

They do stop PE's from designing buildings in the future in any other domain. By law. So it's very much a different ball game. After an egregious error, we can still practice our craft, because we aren't "engineers" at the end of the day. (Again, "engineers" in that hard sense of the word.) PE's can't practice their craft any longer after an egregious error. Because they are "engineers" in that hard sense of the word.

1 more reply

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

0 comments

AlotOfReading3mo ago

blibble3mo ago

there are plenty of software engineers that work in regulated industries, with individual licensing, criminal liability, and the ability to be struck off and banned from the industry by the regulator

... such as myself

bilbo0s3mo ago

Sure.

But no one stops you from writing software again.

It's not that PE's can't design or review buildings in whatever city the egregious failure happened.

It's that PE's can't design or review buildings at all in any city after an egregious failure.

It's not that PE's can't design or review hospital building designs because one of their hospital designs went so egregiously sideways.

It's that PE's can't design or review any building for any use because their design went so egregiously sideways.

PE's agree to hang a sword of damocles over their own heads for the lifetime of the bridge or building they design. That's a whole different ball game.

blibble3mo ago

> Consequences for me messing up are far less severe than the consequences for a PE messing up.

if I approve a bad release that leads to an egregious failure, for me it's a prison sentence and unlimited fines

in addition to being struck off and banned from the industry

> That's a whole different ball game.

if you say so

bilbo0s3mo ago

>if I approve a bad release that leads to an egregious failure, for me it's a prison sentence and unlimited fines

But the fact remains that no one would stop either of us from writing software in the future in some other domain.

1 more reply

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse