Wikipedia: Sandbox (opens in new tab)

(en.wikipedia.org)

93 pointszaptrem1mo ago37 comments

I was learning about Wikipedia recently and thought it was interesting there was a global, public page specifically for writing random stuff to learn how to use their editor. I assumed there would be something like this on a per-user, invisible to the public level, but not a global level like this page.

37 comments

firasd1mo ago

It's interesting to think about how complex the wikipedia text is compared to something like github flavored markdown or even standard html tables (although I guess it eventually renders into standard html so it's not more complex than the latter when all other html elements are considered in addition to <table>)

For example the swatch internet time infobox is dynamically updated

{{short description|Alternate time system by watch maker Swatch}} {{Infobox | image = [[File:Swatch beat Logo.svg|200px|alt=Logo of Swatch Internet Time]] | caption = Logo of Swatch Internet Time | title = Time{{efn|at page generation }} {{purge|(update to view correct time)}} | label1 = 24-hour time (UTC) | data1 = {{nowrap|{{#time:H:i:s}}}} | label2 = 24-hour time (CET) | data2 = {{Time|CET|dst=no|df-cust=H:i:s|hide-refresh=yes}} | label3 = .beat time (BMT) | data3 = {{nowrap|@{{#expr: floor( {{#expr:{{#expr:{{#expr:{{#time:H|now + 1 hour}}3600}}+{{#expr:{{#time:i}}60}}+{{#time:s}}}}/86.4}} )}}}} }}

sph1mo ago

Day 1: we’ll adopt a simple markup language because our users are not programmers

Day 2: our users have complicated needs so we’ll basically reinvent Lisp expressions, but worse.

Day N: whatever this markup language is

——

I’ve seen this happen so many times it’s not even funny anymore. Well, at least it’s not YAML.

bawolff1mo ago

Ironically it wasn't even intentional. Wikipedia users discovered a way to create an if statement by themselves, originally there was no conditionals.

Anyways, now a days you can use lua, so most of the wikisyntax is just glue code calling a lua program

Inityx1mo ago

> so we’ll basically reinvent Lisp expressions, but worse

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenspun%27s_tenth_rule

bawolff1mo ago

I always found it ironic that the table syntax is designed to resemble ascii-art type tables, and then literally nobody writes it in a way that looks like an ascii art table.

notpushkin1mo ago

Yeah, because it’s a PITA to align everything by hand.

But the spaces around | make it easier to read, than, say, CSV.

3 more replies

popalchemist1mo ago

It's basically wordpress era PHP templating.

stogot1mo ago

I’ve spent countless hours at employers fixing Xwiki syntax errors mixed with HTML. The parsing engine must be complex

decimalenough1mo ago

That's putting it lightly, since Mediawiki templates are Turing-complete.

I'm not up to speed on my parsers anymore, but I believe Parsoid remains the most complete implementation, while mwlib is a reasonable compromise.

https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Alternative_parsers#Known_imp...

susam1mo ago

I just went back to check whether I have a sandbox on Wikipedia. Turns out I do: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Susam_Pal/sandbox

I am not a regular contributor to Wikipedia but the little time I have spent contributing there has exposed me to its very elaborate culture, with barnstars being one artefact of that culture, alongside policy acronyms everyone seems to know by heart, WikiProjects organised around every imaginable topic, userboxes that are little badges that say something about you, etc.

By the way, I added a few userboxes for the Logo programming language, in case there are any Wikipedians out here who happen to love Logo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:User_logo

anthonyIPH1mo ago

Tried to edit on my mobile (T-Mobile - US) and got this:

  Your IP address has been blocked     from editing Wikipedia.

  Blocked by Xaosflux

  Block will expire in 7 months

Curiosity led me to Xaosflux's Wikipedia page where I see they have been active since 2005 with over 85k edits!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Xaosflux

pixel_popping1mo ago

I've had the desire to contribute so many times, but each time I was blocked. I don't think Wikipedia accurately measures how much contribution they lose because of the hostile treatment of new editors and what I believe are poorly implemented editing policies. Their policies likely haven't been revised since a decade or more, they should do a survey about it.

reddalo1mo ago

I'm not trying to defend Wikipedia at all costs, but you should also think about how much spam and trolling would happen on their platform if they didn't have these annoying blocks for non-registered users.

I run a pretty simple SaaS with a free tier and the amount of spam that I have to manage is high; I don't want to even imagine how difficult it must be to run a website where anybody can edit pretty much anything.

1 more reply

sheept1mo ago

in most cases you should be able to create an account and edit even if your IP address or range is blocked

bawolff1mo ago

Typically this just means you have to create an account.

Mobile ips are often blocked because of the sheer amount of spam and they switch so much that its difficult to block individual offenders.

saagarjha1mo ago

They block logged in users too.

1 more reply

gbear6051mo ago

Unfortunately large IP groups like mobile phones often need to be blocked because it’s the only possible way to constraint anonymous spammers.

tonymet1mo ago

There are both, every user has their own sandbox. But this one is there to encourage first time visitors and the uninitiated to make changes , so they know that anyone can contribute uninhibited.

kemayo1mo ago

Though, just to be clear, the per-user ones are also public. They're just a convention where if you make a subpage of your user page and call it "Sandbox", nobody is going to complain about the encyclopedic value of your edits.

bawolff1mo ago

If you really want something private, there is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:ExpandTemplates (or of course just hit preview and dont save)

tonymet1mo ago

True , though I just discovered category scans still hit your user sandbox. Kind of silly

bityard1mo ago

Pretty much all wikis would have a "Sandbox" page for trying out that particular wiki's individual syntax and features.

chungy1mo ago

I'd wager that most wikis use the MediaWiki software, which is what Wikipedia runs on.

One particular thing that comes to mind though, is that Fossil (https://fossil-scm.org/) has a private local-only sandbox: https://fossil-scm.org/home/wikiedit?name=Sandbox. It saves to your browser's persistent storage, but never on the server.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

37 comments

firasd1mo ago

For example the swatch internet time infobox is dynamically updated

sph1mo ago

Day 1: we’ll adopt a simple markup language because our users are not programmers

Day 2: our users have complicated needs so we’ll basically reinvent Lisp expressions, but worse.

Day N: whatever this markup language is

——

I’ve seen this happen so many times it’s not even funny anymore. Well, at least it’s not YAML.

bawolff1mo ago

Ironically it wasn't even intentional. Wikipedia users discovered a way to create an if statement by themselves, originally there was no conditionals.

Anyways, now a days you can use lua, so most of the wikisyntax is just glue code calling a lua program

Inityx1mo ago

> so we’ll basically reinvent Lisp expressions, but worse

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenspun%27s_tenth_rule

bawolff1mo ago

I always found it ironic that the table syntax is designed to resemble ascii-art type tables, and then literally nobody writes it in a way that looks like an ascii art table.

notpushkin1mo ago

Yeah, because it’s a PITA to align everything by hand.

But the spaces around | make it easier to read, than, say, CSV.

3 more replies

popalchemist1mo ago

It's basically wordpress era PHP templating.

stogot1mo ago

I’ve spent countless hours at employers fixing Xwiki syntax errors mixed with HTML. The parsing engine must be complex

decimalenough1mo ago

That's putting it lightly, since Mediawiki templates are Turing-complete.

I'm not up to speed on my parsers anymore, but I believe Parsoid remains the most complete implementation, while mwlib is a reasonable compromise.

https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Alternative_parsers#Known_imp...

susam1mo ago

I just went back to check whether I have a sandbox on Wikipedia. Turns out I do: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Susam_Pal/sandbox

By the way, I added a few userboxes for the Logo programming language, in case there are any Wikipedians out here who happen to love Logo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:User_logo

anthonyIPH1mo ago

Tried to edit on my mobile (T-Mobile - US) and got this:

  Your IP address has been blocked     from editing Wikipedia.

  Blocked by Xaosflux

  Block will expire in 7 months

Curiosity led me to Xaosflux's Wikipedia page where I see they have been active since 2005 with over 85k edits!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Xaosflux

pixel_popping1mo ago

reddalo1mo ago

1 more reply

sheept1mo ago

in most cases you should be able to create an account and edit even if your IP address or range is blocked

bawolff1mo ago

Typically this just means you have to create an account.

Mobile ips are often blocked because of the sheer amount of spam and they switch so much that its difficult to block individual offenders.

saagarjha1mo ago

They block logged in users too.

1 more reply

gbear6051mo ago

Unfortunately large IP groups like mobile phones often need to be blocked because it’s the only possible way to constraint anonymous spammers.

tonymet1mo ago

There are both, every user has their own sandbox. But this one is there to encourage first time visitors and the uninitiated to make changes , so they know that anyone can contribute uninhibited.

kemayo1mo ago

bawolff1mo ago

If you really want something private, there is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:ExpandTemplates (or of course just hit preview and dont save)

tonymet1mo ago

True , though I just discovered category scans still hit your user sandbox. Kind of silly

bityard1mo ago

Pretty much all wikis would have a "Sandbox" page for trying out that particular wiki's individual syntax and features.

chungy1mo ago

I'd wager that most wikis use the MediaWiki software, which is what Wikipedia runs on.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse