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0 pointsstefan_3mo ago0 comments

It's terrible, why would I want my endpoints to return random HTML fragments? I realize thats how you did it in the JQuery times, but I was never in those - at that time we simply had template engines in the backend so this HTML slop wouldn't contaminate everywhere..

Most of the frontend stuff I do is for internal pages on embedded devices, and I'm very happy with a structure where I have the frontend being a full React fancy component lib SPA that is eventually just compiled down to a zip bundle of files that the backend needs to know nothing about and can serve as dumb files. The backend is a JSON API of sorts that I would need to build anyway for other use cases.

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bottlepalm3mo ago

Returning HTML sounds like a styling nightmare, if anyone changes the structure, unintended consequences. Plus it’s difficult to reason possible states of the UI with fragments sitting on the server, possibly dynamically built on the server. Very jquery/PHP ish. I had my fun and don’t want to go back.

listenallyall3mo ago

To "get" HTMX, you have to think server-first. State is persisted on the server and all state-change logic is performed on the server (often triggered by http requests from a "dumb" client).

If you hang on to "possible states of the UI" that are client-side only then yes you'll have some difficulty implementing server-generated HTMX responses but more importantly, when your client has state that sometimes isn't in sync with, or shared with, or validated by your server, you're setting yourself up for errors and bugs that will exist regardless of framework.

In short, HTMX forces you to apply "single source of truth" concepts to your application.

robinhood3mo ago

Clearly you haven't used something like HTMX. Do you understand what "returning HTML by the server" mean? You are basically sending back a view, like you would in any other framework actually. This would be the exact same pattern as displaying or dynamically adding a new component from either React or Vue. It doesn't create any styling issue at all, nor any unintended consequences.

bottlepalm3mo ago

I’ve used jquery which is very heavy into html fragments. It can get unwieldy compared to keeping all your rending logic in one place and applying data to it like in React. Other comments here validate the suspicion that HTMX can fall apart in large systems.

Unless you’re saying the components returned by HTMX are using the shadow dom for isolation, you can very easily run into styling problems by changing a style and not realizing some injected fragment of HTML somewhere relies on it being a certain way. I hope you’re using a monorepo because unlike typescript APIs, those HTML fragments and CSS styles are not type checked.

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drcongo3mo ago

The HTML fragments aren't random.

ErroneousBosh3mo ago

> It's terrible, why would I want my endpoints to return random HTML fragments?

What would you return instead? It's easy to generate HTML, because that's what your server is already generating (and that's about all it should generate).

stefan_OP3mo ago

HTML is the last thing I would ever want to generate on my embedded device, it's a terribly verbose string-based mess invariably coupled with stylistic choices. Which is why my servers don't generate any of that, they serve static files - and any interactive information in something that looks a lot more like an interface definition.

wrs3mo ago

I don’t get what you’re saying (maybe there’s a typo). With React, generating HTML on the embedded device is exactly what you’re doing — twice (virtual and real DOM).

ErroneousBosh3mo ago

Okay, so what do you your servers actually serve stuff to?

I kind of don't get why if you want to display something in a web browser you'd generate anything other than HTML.

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bottlepalm3mo ago

listenallyall3mo ago

To "get" HTMX, you have to think server-first. State is persisted on the server and all state-change logic is performed on the server (often triggered by http requests from a "dumb" client).

In short, HTMX forces you to apply "single source of truth" concepts to your application.

robinhood3mo ago

bottlepalm3mo ago

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drcongo3mo ago

The HTML fragments aren't random.

ErroneousBosh3mo ago

> It's terrible, why would I want my endpoints to return random HTML fragments?

What would you return instead? It's easy to generate HTML, because that's what your server is already generating (and that's about all it should generate).

stefan_OP3mo ago

wrs3mo ago

I don’t get what you’re saying (maybe there’s a typo). With React, generating HTML on the embedded device is exactly what you’re doing — twice (virtual and real DOM).

ErroneousBosh3mo ago

Okay, so what do you your servers actually serve stuff to?

I kind of don't get why if you want to display something in a web browser you'd generate anything other than HTML.

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