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0 pointsImPostingOnHN8mo ago0 comments

> Sounds like what I said, a form of narrative control.

Yes, whataboutism is both a rhetological fallacy and a form of "narrative control".

> A charge I made of both appeals to hypocrisy and appeals to whataboutism.

"Appeal to whataboutism" isn't a thing. It's just called "whataboutism", and since whataboutism and "appeal to hypocrisy" (seems synonymous with whataboutism) are both fallacies, pointing them out is just called "pointing out fallacies". Fallacies don't need any 'appeals' or arguments made against them, because they are already fallacious, that's why we call them fallacies.

And yes, pointing out fallacious arguments could be called "narrative control", too ;) So could be saying anything! After all, anyone saying anything is trying to "control the narrative" to include that thing. What a silly, needlessly conspiratorial neologism for a uselessly vague concept!

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cjbgkagh8mo ago· 1 in thread

The discretion of the validity of pointing out hypocrisy is the core of the issue. I would 100% agree with you if all discussions are purely logical, but they’re not, so I don’t.

The introduction of whataboutism into the lexicon was to counter Russian appeals to hypocrisy. This was linked to Trump in an effort to discredit both. Those of us who have long memories do remember a time when pointing out the hypocrisy of the West was considered a valid thing to do. See the work of Noam Chomsky as an example.

ImPostingOnHNOP8mo ago

A Tu Quoque fallacy, or as you put it, "pointing out hypocrisy", is a fallacy. Some people do not like logical discussions, so they use that fallacy anyways. That is totally ok, I'm not the boss of them.

But, it will likely be pointed out that their fallacious arguments are fallacious, and at that point, they can choose to make valid arguments, or to continue their string of failures by unconvincingly making more fallacious ones.

> The introduction of whataboutism into the lexicon was to counter Russian appeals to hypocrisy

Cool! "Appeal to hypocrisy", or Tu Quoque, is a fallacy and any arguments invoking it are accordingly fallacious. Coining another synonym ("whataboutism") doesn't change things. Those making fallacious arguments can try to make valid arguments (if there are any) for their case next time.

> Those of us who have long memories do remember a time when pointing out the hypocrisy of the West was considered a valid thing to do

I've got a long memory, too, and the Tu Quoque fallacy was never a valid defense, no matter what you called it. That's what makes it a fallacy.

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