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0 pointsOneLessThing8mo ago0 comments

It's interesting to hear these takes. I've never had problems catching unsigned wrap bugs with plain old memory sanitizers, though I must admit to not having a lot of experience with ubsan in particular. Maybe I should use it more.

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7 comments · 2 top-level

jacquesm8mo ago· 5 in thread

I've had some fun reviewing some very old code I wrote (1980's) to see what it looked like to me after such a long time of gaining experience. It's not unlike what the OP did here, it reads cleanly but I can see many issues that escaped my attention at the time. I always compared C with a very fast car: you can take some corners on two wheels but if you make a habit of that you're going to end up in a wall somewhere. That opinion has not changed.

uecker8mo ago

I think the correct comparison is a sharp knife. It is extremely useful and while there is a risk it is fully acceptable. The idea that we should all use plastic knifes because there are often accidents with knifes is wrong and so is the idea that we use should abandon C because of memory safety. I follow computer security issues for several decades, and while I think we should have memory safety IMHO the push and arguments are completely overblown - and they are especially not worth the complexity and issues of Rust. I never was personally impacted by a security exploit caused by memory safety or know anybody in my personal vicinity who was. I know many cases where people where affected by other kinds of security issues. So I think those are what we should focus on first. And having timely security updates is a hell lot more important than memory safety, so I am not happy that Rust now makes this harder.

jacquesm8mo ago

That's an interesting point you are making there. The most common exploits are of the human variety. Even so it is probably a good idea to minimize the chances of all kinds of exploits. One other problem - pet peeve of mine - is that instead of giving people just security updates manufacturers will happily include a whole bunch of new and 'exciting' stuff in their updates that in turn will (1) introduce new security issues and (2) will inevitably try to extract more money from the updaters. This is extremely counterproductive.

int_19h8mo ago

The real problem with C is that it's not just a sharp knife, it's a knife with poor ergonomics that makes it more prone to cutting yourself.

The answer to that though is probably more something like Zig than something like Rust.

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pjmlp8mo ago

Except any good chef or butcher knows that they should be wearing protective gloves when using sharp knifes.

> Cut-resistant gloves are an essential piece of safety equipment in any kitchen.

https://www.restaurantware.com/blogs/smallwares/how-to-choos...

Where are C's gloves?

simonask8mo ago

I’m sorry, but there is an incredible amount of hard data on this, including the number of CVEs directly attributable to memory safety bugs. This is publicly available information, and we as an industry should take it seriously.

I don’t mean to be disrespectful, but this cavalier attitude towards it reads like vaccine skepticism to me. It is not serious.

Programming can be inconsequential, but it can also be national security. I know which engineers I would trust with the latter, and they aren’t the kind who believe that discipline is “enough”.

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uecker8mo ago

GCC's sanitizer does not catch unsigned wraparound. But the bigger problem is that a lot of code is written where it assumes that unsigned wraps around and this is ok. So you you would use a sanitizer you get a lot of false positives. For signed overflow, one can always consider this a bug in portable C.

Of course, if you consistently treat unsigned wraparound as a bug in your code, you can also use a sanitizer to screen for it. But in general I find it more practical to use signed integers for everything except for modular arithmetic where I use unsigned (and where wraparound is then expected and not a bug)

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7 comments · 2 top-level

jacquesm8mo ago· 5 in thread

uecker8mo ago

jacquesm8mo ago

int_19h8mo ago

The real problem with C is that it's not just a sharp knife, it's a knife with poor ergonomics that makes it more prone to cutting yourself.

The answer to that though is probably more something like Zig than something like Rust.

1 more reply

pjmlp8mo ago

Except any good chef or butcher knows that they should be wearing protective gloves when using sharp knifes.

> Cut-resistant gloves are an essential piece of safety equipment in any kitchen.

https://www.restaurantware.com/blogs/smallwares/how-to-choos...

Where are C's gloves?

simonask8mo ago

I don’t mean to be disrespectful, but this cavalier attitude towards it reads like vaccine skepticism to me. It is not serious.

Programming can be inconsequential, but it can also be national security. I know which engineers I would trust with the latter, and they aren’t the kind who believe that discipline is “enough”.

3 more replies

uecker8mo ago

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