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0 pointsCalavar7mo ago0 comments

> Chrome is an excellent browser with leading standards support.

Google learned it can be "standards compliant" if it submits a draft spec to WHATWG/W3C, and while the comment and revision process is still ongoing, roll out those features in Chrome and start using them in YouTube, Gmail, Google docs, and AMP. Now Firefox and Safari are forced to implement those draft specs as well or users will leave in droves because Google websites are broken. Soon enough, Google's draft spec is standardized with minimal revisions because it's already out there in the wild.

The debate, revision, and multistakeholder aspects of the standards process have been effectively bypassed, a la IE6 and ActiveX, but Chrome can claim to be on the cutting edge of standards compliance. This is a case of Goodharts's law.

0 comments

anang7mo ago

I don't mean this to doubt you, it is a sincere question. Do you have any examples of that happening? It sounds very believable, but it would be great to have actual sources for future reference.

troupo7mo ago

Anytime you see someone on HN lamenting that Safari is the new IE because it doesn't implement something, 99.9% of the time it's Chrome-only non-standards.

- All of hardware standards. WebHID's timeline is especially egregious https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/459#is...

- Most of standards advertised on web.dev as "new exciting opportunities you can try now". E.g. WebTransport https://developer.chrome.com/docs/capabilities/web-apis/webt.... The status of that spec is "scribbled on a napkin", but somehow already released in Chrome.

- Other "standards" and "specs" here and there like web share target https://w3c.github.io/web-share-target/

Can I Use had to create a special UNOFF tag for all the web APIs that Chrome (mostly Chrome) ships. If you go to MDN and look at all APIs marked as "experimental", you'll find that most of them are already shipped in Chrome: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API

dijit7mo ago

push notifications, webgpu and webusb are examples of chrome being a reference implementation and using things for their services while simultaneously pushing the standard.

Push for mail, webgpu for maps (iirc) and I believe WebUSB is used for Android flash/debug.

mistercow7mo ago

WebGPU is the only one of those I’ve really followed, but hasn’t that had a huge amount of input and changes due to other voices in the working group? That seems to contradict the simplistic picture painted above of Google just dictating standards to the industry.

dijit7mo ago

Would webgpu exist at all if Chrome hadn’t just pushed through with an implementation?

Who knows.

Not us, we’ll never know.

1 more reply

mendyberger7mo ago

Not true about webgpu, but true about some APIs in Google's project-fugu

kinlan7mo ago

We had very few products that use the fugu apis., and I don't believe we were the first to ship them either in a production website.

If you're looking at fugu in particular (especially in the latter stages) we had external developers or businesses wanting the features.

Note: there are some apis that a Google customer wanted to use first.

1 more reply

rdsubhas7mo ago

QUIC. HTTP/3. WebP. And more in this comment thread.

CalavarOP7mo ago

Yep, QUIC is what I was thinking about when I wrote my additional comment, but there are many examples, as others have pointed out.

krageon7mo ago

It happens every single time. This isn't some well kept industry secret

neves7mo ago

Any serious antitrust process would break it in a separate company.

ekianjo7mo ago

Would that change anything? If you have a separate company who owns a 90% market share browser, they can keep ignoring standards just fine

rjh297mo ago

If Google websites break on Safari, users will stop using Google before they stop using an iPhone. They will blame Google as well. Safari has refused to implement standards multiple times.

soraminazuki7mo ago

If people want specifics:

https://xcancel.com/rich_harris/status/1220412711768666114

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

0 comments

anang7mo ago

I don't mean this to doubt you, it is a sincere question. Do you have any examples of that happening? It sounds very believable, but it would be great to have actual sources for future reference.

troupo7mo ago

Anytime you see someone on HN lamenting that Safari is the new IE because it doesn't implement something, 99.9% of the time it's Chrome-only non-standards.

- All of hardware standards. WebHID's timeline is especially egregious https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/459#is...

- Other "standards" and "specs" here and there like web share target https://w3c.github.io/web-share-target/

dijit7mo ago

push notifications, webgpu and webusb are examples of chrome being a reference implementation and using things for their services while simultaneously pushing the standard.

Push for mail, webgpu for maps (iirc) and I believe WebUSB is used for Android flash/debug.

mistercow7mo ago

dijit7mo ago

Would webgpu exist at all if Chrome hadn’t just pushed through with an implementation?

Who knows.

Not us, we’ll never know.

1 more reply

mendyberger7mo ago

Not true about webgpu, but true about some APIs in Google's project-fugu

kinlan7mo ago

We had very few products that use the fugu apis., and I don't believe we were the first to ship them either in a production website.

If you're looking at fugu in particular (especially in the latter stages) we had external developers or businesses wanting the features.

Note: there are some apis that a Google customer wanted to use first.

1 more reply

rdsubhas7mo ago

QUIC. HTTP/3. WebP. And more in this comment thread.

CalavarOP7mo ago

Yep, QUIC is what I was thinking about when I wrote my additional comment, but there are many examples, as others have pointed out.

krageon7mo ago

It happens every single time. This isn't some well kept industry secret

neves7mo ago

Any serious antitrust process would break it in a separate company.

ekianjo7mo ago

Would that change anything? If you have a separate company who owns a 90% market share browser, they can keep ignoring standards just fine

rjh297mo ago

If Google websites break on Safari, users will stop using Google before they stop using an iPhone. They will blame Google as well. Safari has refused to implement standards multiple times.

soraminazuki7mo ago

If people want specifics:

https://xcancel.com/rich_harris/status/1220412711768666114

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse